[quote name='TheLeviathan'][quote name='PseudoSABR']How do we enforce personal responsibility? How far are you willing to go? People in the streets? Starvation at some halfway house? Duct tape and spit as a safety net? How grizzly should we allow our human ethics grow to teach people this lesson? (Poor people, just try harder! Learn some personal responsibility! Or else!) [/QUOTE]
So is your position that people are just utterly incompetent and unable to function? I mean holy crap is this a pessimistic view of humanity. There are many that need help, truly need it. I have worked with those people most of my life, I know who they are, and I don't want them to go without their needs. But I also know many people who will do precisely what you make them do for themselves. If you allow them to milk the system, not work, or work half-time - that's precisely what they'll do. I don't believe people will die in the streets if we ask them to provide for themselves. But I won't sit back and watch someone work 40-60 hours a week and be LESS well-off then someone living off the government. Screw your "don't shoot the defenseless bunny" bull**** on that's. It's hopelessly detrimental to a functional society.
The problem isn't the amount of money going into social programs - the problem is that we walk into it believing so many people NEED help. If we went in thinking, well, we'll give them a hand and then let them go on their own - we'd be in a much different boat. The reason our current programs don't work is because we don't expect them too - and the mindset you're espousing is precisely why. No one can even suggest that many you suppose "need" help truly don't without you pulling some "woe is everyone" schtick that is obnoxious and dense.[/QUOTE]Hey, Levi, I really don't disagree with you that people milk the system, that capable people become lazy, that some of us wilt before the hard-won life. I get that. But I'm not so sure tough-love (in fact, tough-negligence) is the solution. How do we get people to try harder? How do we get them to invest in themselves? Well, that's some real hard-won wisdom. I want a plan to take care of the lazy, not leave them out. We can lift the heavy weight of figuring out how to help those with ennui, because it's an honest conclusion to modern life.
To ask another way, how much sunk cost is too much for civilization to be civil? My belief is that we really haven't given the weakest among us much of chance. We've been damn cheap in regard to making efficacious social programs and educational institutions. We don't invest in our schools and our communities; instead we seem to hope that some private benefactor might swoop in and save us all. (Swoon!) Again, the free market/private enterprise will not take care of the weakest among us--so what will we do? Are we so callous to give them street and the waiting room ER (which bites us in the butt anyway)? I think we can do better. I agree it will cost us more in the short run, a lot more, but we will benefit by having a skilled lower class, rather than a bitter, job-hopeless class. Again, there simply aren't jobs for such unskilled, near-derelict people to work. That sense of too-good American pride has long since washed away; American middle aged adults are willing to do whatever we ask of them as long as they can pay their bills and retire in non-misery. Under the Ryan plan, we don't even offer them that. Awful.
[QUOTE][quote]Paul Ryan has a NON-PLAN. His plan is to get rid of the social welfare plans, not fix them. Ryan seems to have no interest making better social welfare programs. And let's be clear, the market is not going to swoop in and provide jobs for loads of unskilled workers--Now, that's naive.[/quote]
Not completely get rid of them - just put restrictions on them. I'm not on board with many of his ideas, but I appreciate that A) He's not giving us lollipops and
He realizes that programs that hand out blank checks (financial aid, medicaid, etc) are not stable going forward. It allows for so much fraud and cost increases it's insane.
I'd prefer if he'd address military spending along with tax increases, but at least the man is addressing real issues. I won't punish him politically for that. I'll examine his policies, but I damn sure will at least appreciate political suicide in the name of discussing the real problems. We have far too many platitudes from both sides to not embrace at least that.[/QUOTE]Some of what you say here makes sense, and I'm on board with. I am down for sensible cuts, only if we don't leave people out. We should fight for the efficacy of Medicare and Social Security, not weaken the basis of their premise; in my view, as an intellectual, as try-hard, as an earner, we must care for people that cannot (or refuse to) care for themselves and pay for it with our hard won dollars; we must not cheapen care to save ourselves a buck we probably don't need.
A point of policy: The Vouchers in Ryan's plan and the general idea of Vouchers make me sick. The only way vouchers save the government money is if these vouchers cheapen under the cost of health care. So that 100 dollar Voucher today isn't worth a 100 dollars of health care tomorrow. That's the only way that the system saves money, by cheapening the health care Medicare provides.
If you want to make entitlements more inexpensive, let's talk about taking the profits out providing health and housing to the elderly. The problem is that entitlements benefit for-profit enterprise, and obviously, such for-profit enterprises will make it as expensive as they can for programs that MUST exist (the essentially hold a monopoly over gov't, squash the gov'ts bargaining power to zero). It's not these entitlement programs that are the problem, it's the businesses that make profit off them.
Is it really such an awful thing that Americans live longer than we intended, and that we must pay more to care for our elderly? We can do this. Even if we must take less of our earnings. We can do this. Let's not be so cheap; let us who have jobs foot the bill to engender a self-sustaining class of Americans. It won't be cheap, but I believe we can do it. That is, if we want to.
Edited by PseudoSABR, 14 August 2012 - 02:02 AM.