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Orioles rushing Machado?

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#1 gunnarthor

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 09:34 AM

BA ranked Machado #11 prospect coming into the season and he'll certainly stay in the top 10 in their next ranking. The 20 year old shortstop hit .266/.352/.438 in the Eastern League (same league as Hicks) but is getting promoted to the majors to play third base.

Heyman reports another GM said: "I still think it's too early to recall him,'' that GM said. "Just because he's better than Wilson Betemit doesn't mean it's the right move for the kid.''

Interesting to see what happens. I don't think it's too big a deal, if/when he struggles you can send him back to AA/AAA. On the other hand, he only played two games at third in the minors and now he's supposed to step in and play it at the ML level? That might be a bad idea.

#2 Seth Stohs

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 09:53 AM

I think it's dumb... It's not like he was hitting or fielding great at AA. That said, the O's are a horrible baseball team that somehow finds itself still competing in the AL East... or at least for a wild card.

#3 diehardtwinsfan

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 10:52 AM

The Os would be a powerhouse right now in the central... just saying. I'm not sure it's the best move either though.

#4 DPJ

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 11:04 AM

The O's are winning with smoke and mirrors right now, hell their pythagorean W/L record is 51-60. As for Machado, I don't really have a problem with it. Let the kid get his feet wet and get a taste of the majors. The O's aren't going anywhere so who really cares. I doubt a rough 30 games is gonna destory the kid.

#5 mini_tb

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 12:13 PM

I am absolutely shocked that Reynolds and Betemit stink. Who could have seen that one coming? I'm not really a fan of the move, but at the same time, the O's are probably pretty tired of trotting out those same 2 bozos on a daily basis while still somehow staying in the AL Wild Card race. It's a bold move for sure. Good for them shaking things up I guess. It just seems like Machado will be a marginal improvement at best at this point of his young career, but it doesn't seem like something worth speeding up the arbitration clock over. If Boston wouldn't have had waiver claim priority over the Orioles, would the O's have gone after Valencia?

#6 Pius Jefferson

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 03:33 PM

I'd be more concerned about the O's rushing Dylan Bundy to the majors. He's been promoted to AA after posting 2.98 ERA with 63 strikeouts in 54.1 ip in A+ league.

#7 whydidnt

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 04:11 PM

Fangraphs had an interesting article on this today. The author's take was that it wasn't a bad move because Betemit has been so bad in the field, and that even though the Orioles have been winning ugly, those wins still count, so they still have about a 20% of making the playoffs. Also indicated that Machado was the 18th best offensive player in the EL this year, so he hasn't totally been over matched. The EL is tough on hitters and Bowie, the Orioles affiliate, is the toughest on hitters in the leauge. If he falls on his face they can start him back at AAA next year and go from there. I personally would like to see the Twins be more aggressive in moving guys up like this from time to time. Not just to the Majors but also a level here or there in the minors. I know Sano's K rate is high and his average is mediocre in Beloit, but I still think that's due to some extent because nobody wants to pitch to him. Would have loved to see them move him to Ft. Myers this year to see how he did against better pitching. At some point we need to get him used to seeing decent breaking stuff.

#8 DPJ

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 04:34 PM

I personally would like to see the Twins be more aggressive in moving guys up like this from time to time. Not just to the Majors but also a level here or there in the minors. I know Sano's K rate is high and his average is mediocre in Beloit, but I still think that's due to some extent because nobody wants to pitch to him. Would have loved to see them move him to Ft. Myers this year to see how he did against better pitching. At some point we need to get him used to seeing decent breaking stuff.


So you're saying since no one will pitch to him he's hacking away at stuff outta the zone. Even though I 100% disagree with that, if that's the case I pray the Twins would bench him and tell him to stay within the zone.

As far as the Twins being more aggressive, HE'S 19!!!! He'll be in the FSL league when most kids his age are sophomores in college.

#9 Seth Stohs

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 05:27 PM

I watched four Snappers games in Beloit last weekend. So yes, it's a small sample size. However, I definitely did not see pitchers trying to pitch around Sano. They were throwing him strikes. I think he walked once in those games and it was a long at bat. He saw quite a few curveball/sliders. He was generally able to lay off those down and away, and he just missed some in the strike zone. I think having Rosario in front of him, and especially having Vargas behind him should help as well. Sano is where he should be.

#10 jokin

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 05:38 PM

So you're saying since no one will pitch to him he's hacking away at stuff outta the zone. Even though I 100% disagree with that, if that's the case I pray the Twins would bench him and tell him to stay within the zone.

As far as the Twins being more aggressive, HE'S 19!!!! He'll be in the FSL league when most kids his age are sophomores in college.


Seth and others had this discussion two months ago. Last year in Rookie League, Sano had a BB% rate of 7.8% and this year its nearly doubled to 15.1% while his K% is about the same. The folks who had seen the Snappers play stated that the league appeared to be pitching around Sano. And there wasn't much hitting talent surrounding him in the order, especially magnified with Rosario and Vargas missing big chunks of the season.

Agreed on rushing him, the Twins definitely don't want to start the arb clock prematurely, especially with his continuing problems at 3B- making it problematic about where he ultimately ends up playing in the field.

#11 jokin

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 05:43 PM

I watched four Snappers games in Beloit last weekend. So yes, it's a small sample size. However, I definitely did not see pitchers trying to pitch around Sano. They were throwing him strikes. I think he walked once in those games and it was a long at bat. He saw quite a few curveball/sliders. He was generally able to lay off those down and away, and he just missed some in the strike zone. I think having Rosario in front of him, and especially having Vargas behind him should help as well. Sano is where he should be.


Writing while you posted. You state with more up-to-date accuracy of what I tried to get across in my previous post.

Do you see Sano or Rosario playing both A+/AA next year?

Is their fielding improved enough to say they are on track towards becoming ML 2B and 3B? Or are the Twins stretching this out and hoping it can still happen?

#12 Seth Stohs

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 06:03 PM

Do you see Sano or Rosario playing both A+/AA next year?

Is their fielding improved enough to say they are on track towards becoming ML 2B and 3B? Or are the Twins stretching this out and hoping it can still happen?


I can see Sano and/or Rosario playing in FM and NB next year. Obviously they would have to play well in the first half to move up in the second half. Both could, and frankly, they wouldn't be lesser prospects if they spent the whole 2013 season in FM.

Defensively, I think they both did OK when I watched. Clearly more room for improvement, for sure, but I thought that, especially Sano, looked much better than two months ago. I saw enough to keep them there longer.

#13 jokin

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 06:28 PM

I can see Sano and/or Rosario playing in FM and NB next year. Obviously they would have to play well in the first half to move up in the second half. Both could, and frankly, they wouldn't be lesser prospects if they spent the whole 2013 season in FM.

Defensively, I think they both did OK when I watched. Clearly more room for improvement, for sure, but I thought that, especially Sano, looked much better than two months ago. I saw enough to keep them there longer.


Thanks for the encouraging words, especially on Sano. Rosario's just coming back from fracturing his face, as is Vargas from his situation. I see Sano's OBP and SLG #s have really jumped in July and Aug from the lows in May/June. It would be nice to see all 3 developing enough to be knocking at the door in Sep '14.

#14 Thrylos

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 06:40 PM

Some teams want to have their best 25 people in the majors. Even if that means sitting them on the bench. This does not work well for their "development" but works well for winning at the major league level. Different priorities. The Twins do not subscribe to that philosophy for sure. If Trout and/or Harper were in the Twins organization they would be in Beloit or maybe Fort Myers if they were lucky...
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#15 Top Gun

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 07:35 PM

Let the kid play, he is so so good!

#16 whydidnt

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 08:44 PM

So you're saying since no one will pitch to him he's hacking away at stuff outta the zone. Even though I 100% disagree with that, if that's the case I pray the Twins would bench him and tell him to stay within the zone.

As far as the Twins being more aggressive, HE'S 19!!!! He'll be in the FSL league when most kids his age are sophomores in college.

And guys like Machado and Harper are in the Majors at about the same age, and Mike Trout is a year older and an MVP candidate. We've heard about his prodigious talent since they signed him three years ago, some guys need to be pushed, and I think Sano is one of those players. Guys don't get promoted by never swinging the bat. The fact that his walk rate has doubled this year means that he DOES understand the strike zone, but is getting a lot of balls outside the zone. What is the harm in moving him up to the next level at this point?

#17 greengoblinrulz

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 09:31 PM

Some teams want to have their best 25 people in the majors. Even if that means sitting them on the bench. This does not work well for their "development" but works well for winning at the major league level.

Different priorities.

The Twins do not subscribe to that philosophy for sure. If Trout and/or Harper were in the Twins organization they would be in Beloit or maybe Fort Myers if they were lucky...

Having the best 25 in the majors is not 'The Twins way'......club does not want anyone in the majors till 25
Different philosiphy......frustrating tho

#18 SpiritofVodkaDave

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 09:38 PM


If Trout and/or Harper were in the Twins organization they would be in Beloit or maybe Fort Myers if they were lucky...


You can't possibly believe that garbage you just spewed.

#19 SpiritofVodkaDave

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 09:43 PM

Also to combat the earlier comments: Morneau and Mauer were both fast tracked to the majors. I can't really think of one player in the minors that should definitely be on the majors at this point: Arcia/Hicks- Already have 3 very good OF. Parmelee- Already have 3 Very good OF, a good 1B and a good DH. Hendriks- possibly, but has struggled in two trips to the mahors this year, team wants him to work on some stuff in the minors. Sano- Way to raw. I also can't really think of any player they let rot in the minors either in the recent history. Guys like Plouffe and Span were simply late bloomers.

#20 DPJ

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 06:17 AM

The fact that his walk rate has doubled this year means that he DOES understand the strike zone, but is getting a lot of balls outside the zone. What is the harm in moving him up to the next level at this point?


So whydidnt on a crappy Twins forum says he's swinging at balls outside the zone even though multiply reports from people say he's just been feed a steady diet of breaking balls and is still learned to stay back on them. Breaking news you can still strike out on pitches in the zone.

You keep him at Beloit cause for all his prodigious, he's not Harper, Trout or Machado. He's not as good as those guys and the numbers say so. If he still killing low-A I would say promote him, but he's having issues with contact their. NTM what's the point of promoting him and getting him to the majors to start his arb clock for a bad team?

#21 whydidnt

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 07:43 AM

So whydidnt on a crappy Twins forum says he's swinging at balls outside the zone even though multiply reports from people say he's just been feed a steady diet of breaking balls and is still learned to stay back on them. Breaking news you can still strike out on pitches in the zone.

You keep him at Beloit cause for all his prodigious, he's not Harper, Trout or Machado. He's not as good as those guys and the numbers say so. If he still killing low-A I would say promote him, but he's having issues with contact their. NTM what's the point of promoting him and getting him to the majors to start his arb clock for a bad team?


Except he's 10th in the league in OPS despite having 140+ more plate appearances than any of the others in the top 10, and he has been walked 18 more times than the next nearest guy in the league, I guess those walks are a result of pitchers pounding the strike zone constantly when pitching to him. He's NOT overmatched right now. He's doing very well. I'm not suggesting that he's ready for the majors, just that moving him up a level now would probably be the right thing for his development. What's the benefit to having him walk 15% of the time he's at the plate? How does that help his development?

Machado's OPS at a similar level in 2011 was lower than Sano's, yet he was promoted to A+ that same year, after only 170 PA, so he is a good comparable. The arbitration clock won't start when he reaches Ft. Myers, either. The Twins have a history of slowly promoting guys in their system, with only a few exceptions, and it looks like Sano isn't going to be one of those exceptions.

As we consider the Twins decisions at promoting players, I think we need to look at how poorly they have been at developing players over the last 5 years before we continue to give the benefit of the doubt to their decisions. The recent track record sucks and so I am disappointed when it seems to be "business as usual". I may jump off a bridge if I hear the Twins are working with Sano on going the other way...

#22 DPJ

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 08:23 AM

[quote name='whydidnt']Except he's 10th in the league in OPS despite having 140+ more plate appearances than any of the others in the top 10, and he has been walked 18 more times than the next nearest guy in the league, I guess those walks are a result of pitchers pounding the strike zone constantly when pitching to him. He's NOT overmatched right now. He's doing very well. I'm not suggesting that he's ready for the majors, just that moving him up a level now would probably be the right thing for his development. What's the benefit to having him walk 15% of the time he's at the plate? How does that help his development?[/QUOTE]

I'm not saying he's overmatched, but the lack of contact is a major concern. He's doing very well for a 19 year old in full season ball, but I don't see how promoting him to Fort Myers fixes any of his issues. You keep mentioning his 15% walk rate which is fantastic, but his strike outs are a concern.

[quote name='whydidnt']
Machado's OPS at a similar level in 2011 was lower than Sano's, yet he was promoted to A+ that same year, after only 170 PA, so he is a good comparable. The arbitration clock won't start when he reaches Ft. Myers, either. The Twins have a history of slowly promoting guys in their system, with only a few exceptions, and it looks like Sano isn't going to be one of those exceptions.[/QUOTE]

First off Machado is a middle infielder (maybe 3B if he gets too big) so I don't see how mentioning his OPS in comparison to Sano's means anything. Whatever the O's wanna do with Machado is their business, hell the Mets have 19 year olds in AA. Doesn't mean it's the right gameplan. Over the last 10 years the Twins have produced Span, Morneau, Mauer, Revere, Ramos, Ploufee and a few intresting position players in the minors. Maybe that's not the sexiest list of players, but maybe the slow promotions has worked a bit.

[quote name='whydidnt']
As we consider the Twins decisions at promoting players, I think we need to look at how poorly they have been at developing players over the last 5 years before we continue to give the benefit of the doubt to their decisions. The recent track record sucks and so I am disappointed when it seems to be "business as usual". I may jump off a bridge if I hear the Twins are working with Sano on going the other way...[/QUOTE]


I agree with you that the Twins haven't developed players as well as they should over the last 5 years, but I don't see how pushing kids who clearly still are rough around the edges fixes that.

#23 whydidnt

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 11:07 AM

First off Machado is a middle infielder (maybe 3B if he gets too big) so I don't see how mentioning his OPS in comparison to Sano's means anything. Whatever the O's wanna do with Machado is their business, hell the Mets have 19 year olds in AA. Doesn't mean it's the right gameplan. Over the last 10 years the Twins have produced Span, Morneau, Mauer, Revere, Ramos, Ploufee and a few intresting position players in the minors. Maybe that's not the sexiest list of players, but maybe the slow promotions has worked a bit.


I guess we have different views of success. For a team that has beliefs rooted in home grown talents that is an awful small list of impact players over a ten year period of time, and frankly, we've seen 2 months of decent play out of Plouffe and Revere, so I'm not ready to call either of those guys a success yet, the Twins didn't think much of Ramos and both Morneau and Mauer were quickly moved through the system. So that leaves Span from you list as an example to compare to Sano? I know you were just throwing names off the top of your head and there are probably others, but really it's not a very long list if you consider we are talking 10 years of time and an organization that prides itself on building from within.

#24 DPJ

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 11:33 AM

I guess we have different views of success. For a team that has beliefs rooted in home grown talents that is an awful small list of impact players over a ten year period of time, and frankly, we've seen 2 months of decent play out of Plouffe and Revere, so I'm not ready to call either of those guys a success yet, the Twins didn't think much of Ramos and both Morneau and Mauer were quickly moved through the system. So that leaves Span from you list as an example to compare to Sano? I know you were just throwing names off the top of your head and there are probably others, but really it's not a very long list if you consider we are talking 10 years of time and an organization that prides itself on building from within.


Well maybe we should look at differently.

Mauer, Span, Morneau, Revere, Ploufee, Garza, Perkins, Ramos, Santana (they did rebuild him once he got to MN) Cuddyer, Kubel & Baker (plus I'm sure I'm missing some guys)

Now name me another teams that's produced that much MLB talent in the last decade? I agree that the last 5 years have sucked as far as player development, but you make it seem like every teams is pumping out All-Stars from every draft.

#25 Badsmerf

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 04:36 PM

I don't think listing the MLB players that have come through the Twins system is really a good example DPJ. I'm not a fan of moving some players slowly, like Arcia. On the other hand you get guys like Plouffe and Span that are marginal prospects most of the way but still have talent. You could eve0n say they were aggressive with Plouffe, he was one of the younger players in the Eastern League when he led the league in 2b! The Twins just haven't had the right talent to promote aggressive. Arcia has actually move through the system pretty quickly, despite very good talent in the entire system for the OF. I really wouldn't say the Twins are extremely slow at promotions, just they are patient. FWIW, Sano shouldn't be promoted because he hasn't played well enough and it wouldln't help him any to move to the FSL. The things he needs to work on he can do in the MWL. He would probably do just fine, but it is going to be easier to make adjustments at this level than it will in the FSL. I doubt he or Rosario get called up mid-season next year either, unless they are destroying it like Arcia did this year.

#26 greengoblinrulz

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 05:25 PM

While the Orioles have been one of the majors biggest jokes, after hiring Buck Schowalter...they have tried hard to win. They know that Machado/Bundy are the real deals & arent worried about having them master a level/having their minor league teams get to the playoffs, ala MN, but to get in the time & get to the next level to help the big club win. Machado is in the majors, but MN would have him in Ft Myers right now, no question IMO,....as they will Sano/Rosario next yr. I also am one to believe that Bryce Harper would be in High A also w/MN, as he didnt dominate in his higher minor league play, but WASH knows he was a major league talent, not a minor league filler. Only real frustrating part now to me isnt Sano, but Hicks/Arcia. Terry Ryan has hinted hard that Hicks (despite having to be protected this winter) wont be recalled & they want him in winter ball first. Arcia is still on the bubble for a recall ....says the organization. How much more can he do. If Twins want to disprove this, how about putting their best prospects in AAA instead of Clete Thomas/Wilkin Ramirez etc...guys who will be released after the next 25 AAA gms.

#27 Seth Stohs

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 06:47 PM

"both Morneau and Mauer were quickly moved through the system. So that leaves Span from you list as an example to compare to Sano?"

Mauer spent his first full minor league season in Low A. At basically the same age, so will Sano. Next year, Sano could move up a level or two, like Mauer did. Or, he could move at the Revere pace and move up one step at a time. Either is fine. At the end of the day, it's not about getting them there quickly... it's about them being ready when they get there. They've moved Arcia pretty quickly. Hicks was moved slowly early, and clearly he needed that. There is no booklet that says exactly how long a player should take to advance.

Why should Hicks come up for September? I get it, if he's going to play, like Benson and Parmelee and Tosoni did last year. But if Willingham, Span and Revere are all there and playing, then he might as well go play elsewhere. They'll add him to the 40 man roster either way.

Also, there is a month left in the season. New Britain is very near a playoff spot, and Rochester is somehow finding themselves back into the playoff conversation. The Twins have shown a willingness to call guys up from AA if they're playing well, so why mess things up for those teams? No one's development is being stalled.

#28 Seth Stohs

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 06:53 PM

Also, this is where you have to trust he scouts and coaching staffs and such... although Machado's AA numbers were not that great, he's come up and had 2 hits in his first game and homered tonight.

#29 Seth Stohs

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 07:05 PM

Sorry! Make that TWO HR tonight for Machado.

#30 righty8383

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 10:15 PM

I don't mean to take anything away from Machado, but both those HR's tonight were total hangers.

http://baltimore.ori...ent_id=23790027