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Next Roster Move: Pitcher for Batter, but Whom?

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#141 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 20 April 2017 - 05:17 PM

I'm curious to see how the Adrianza thing plays out. I'd be tempted to replace Santana with him but that doesn't really fix any problems, as Santana has been an outfielder, Escobar looks fine as a backup, and Adrianza can't hit his way out of a paper bag.

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#142 yarnivek1972

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Posted 20 April 2017 - 06:41 PM

I could very easily see both being DFA and JB Shuck taking over as a reserve OFer. Sano and Polanco are doing fine defensively so far. Escobar as the only reserve infielder isn't an issue IMO. Vielma is on the 40 man in case of injury. Adrianza might clear waivers and stick around. Leonardo Reginatto is around if things get desperate.

#143 kab21

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Posted 20 April 2017 - 08:15 PM

 

I'm curious to see how the Adrianza thing plays out. I'd be tempted to replace Santana with him but that doesn't really fix any problems, as Santana has been an outfielder, Escobar looks fine as a backup, and Adrianza can't hit his way out of a paper bag.

Carrying two utility infielders has always been a pet peeve of mine. 13 man pitching staff slightly outranks it but not by much.

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Is 2016 2017 the year that a good pitching prospect is truly blocked by 5 good pitchers in the starting rotation? 

Looks like we will have to wait another year until a good pitching prospect is actually blocked.


#144 KirbyDome89

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Posted 20 April 2017 - 09:08 PM

 

I'd do both Park and Vargas, dump a pitcher and Santana and Grossman is my fourth OFer.

 

One of those two plus Mauer sits every day depending on the pitcher, the other two at 1B/DH.  Grossman in against LHers. I get the platoon advantage from all three spots, pretty much every day.

 

But then I'd have done that out of spring training.

Idk if I'm ready to bench Mauer for the season. Personally I would rather see the 4th OFer be somebody who can actually catch the ball but to be honest I would even settle for just another bat so no big complaints with that game plan. My head is about ready to explode having to watch any of Santana or Gimenez playing any position other than catcher. 


#145 KirbyDome89

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Posted 20 April 2017 - 09:45 PM

 

But that's not how it works. Teams don't just add to the 40-man willy-nilly. They try to strike a balance, especially in the middle of a season because what happens if two starters go down in the next two weeks? Or three relievers in a month? It's not exactly a simple thing to jettison players off the 40-man on demand, particularly if you've added too many players at a single position and are unwilling to cut any of them at any given moment.

 

Adding a handful of no position, all bat guys to your 40-man is a good way to put yourself in the position to make uncomfortable decisions as you realize you've backed yourself into a corner.

 

So if you can avoid adding Park to the 40-man, you simply do that. If/when someone goes down, is cut, or whatever, then you reconsider.

If the Twins had a solid 25 man and guys who had come up through the system that they wanted to protect on the 40 man then that would totally make sense, but that isn't the case. They have guys on both rosters that are beyond expendable. The RP should be fine, they have plenty of those guys. The SP situation is what it is. Apart from Berrios right now they have NOBODY they can bring up. I guess stretch Duffey out if 2 go down? Adding Park doesn't affect either of those situations.

 

They're carrying Santana, Adrianza, and Vielma. Santana can't do anything well; Adrianza and Vielma can pick up the ball but neither can hit it. All three are behind the backup utility IFer Escobar.They can afford to expose one of that trio to waivers.   

 

Park has a position, and he could easily be the weak part of a 1B platoon. I would rather they carry two 1B/DH guys with bats and 2 UT IFers who can't hit as opposed to 3 UT IFers who can't hit. Unless they plan to add some OFer we don't know about to the 40 man I'm going to favor the former scenario. 

 

Hell, I'm not advocating for adding Park "willy-nilly." What I said was that his position off the 40 man shouldn't decide whether he or Vargas comes up. If they like Vargas better than fine, it doesn't bother me I just want to get a bat on the bench. However, if they're only bringing up Vargas due to his status on the 40 man and because they refuse to part with guys like Adrianza, Santana, Boshers, ect.. then yeah, I have an issue with that. 

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#146 USAFChief

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Posted 20 April 2017 - 09:45 PM

Idk if I'm ready to bench Mauer for the season. Personally I would rather see the 4th OFer be somebody who can actually catch the ball but to be honest I would even settle for just another bat so no big complaints with that game plan. My head is about ready to explode having to watch any of Santana or Gimenez playing any position other than catcher.


I worded that poorly.

With RH Park, SH Vargas, and LH hitting Mauer, two of those three man 1b/DH most days, with the odd man on the bench. Most days, we have a platoon advantage.

Against LH pitching, Grossman mans a corner a OF spot, and you add a platoon advantage there.

This offense isn't so good it couldn't benefit from some advantageous deployment. And DanSan provides little of anything except the ability to be a two way detriment at multiple spots instead of just one.
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#147 KirbyDome89

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Posted 20 April 2017 - 09:52 PM

 

I worded that poorly.

With RH Park, SH Vargas, and LH hitting Mauer, two of those three man 1b/DH most days, with the odd man on the bench. Most days, we have a platoon advantage.

Against LH pitching, Grossman mans a corner a OF spot, and you add a platoon advantage there.

This offense isn't so good it couldn't benefit from some advantageous deployment. And DanSan provides little of anything except the ability to be a two way detriment at multiple spots instead of just one.

Haha gotcha. Yeah that seems a lot less extreme. 

 

I would happy with either Park or Vargas but if Molitor can find the ABs for a three man 1B/DH group I can't say I'm totally opposed to the experiment.

 

The catch with the whole proposal is you're going to have a hard time selling me Grossman as the 4th OFer. I still have nightmares about that epic boot in LF late last season. 


#148 Sconnie

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 11:11 AM

26 is not old for a catcher to debut. Tough position.

thats assuming he debuts this year
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#149 drjim

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 11:58 AM

 

thats assuming he debuts this year

 

He's on the 40 man. If he keeps this up he will, even if it is September.

Papers...business papers.

#150 Oldgoat_MN

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 12:40 PM

Based on the original question...

Tonkin has been placed in the long relief/mop-up role. There have been several times that threads on TD have looked at him historically and shown that he is far better suited to a setup role, pitching 1 inning or less at a time. Molitor is not going to use him that way so let him go. I'm sure he would appreciate it.

 

Eduardo Escobar has reminded everyone why he wears a MLB uniform, showing up healthy and performing like he displayed himself in 2015. I think there is no need to retain Adrainza. If someone gets hurt we have Vielma on the 40 man. We also have Goodrum and Reginatto (that would be a feel good story for this career MiLBer) hitting well in AAA. If Adrianza is put on the 25 man roster I am going to completely lose it regarding this FO.

 

The obvious choice is Vargas. Mauer is hitting poorly so far this year and getting very little rest. Were he to sit games where the opposing starting pitcher was LH it would be good for everybody. It would also give Molitor an option off the bench at times.

 

The fact that they came north with Mauer our only 1B was weak on the part of the people making up the roster. That is the kindest way I can word my opinion of that move.

 

 

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#151 LA VIkes Fan

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 12:51 PM

 

To elaborate a bit, I wouldn't have Santana on the roster. But if you add Vargas to replace Tonkin, then you have a situation where Grossman is your fourth outfielder. That's not a big problem in my eyes but should an in-game disaster situation arise, you might need Santana to play a few innings because Grossman is DH or another guy is banged up. Or Danny can pinch-run a few times a week. Or pinch-hit infrequently when the rest of your hand is played.

 

In that situation and role, Santana is not killing you. He has a few tools, none of them very good, but they're tools none-the-less.

 

Because because you also have Vargas and more flexibility with Grossman/Mauer, Santana in that role isn't nearly the irritant he is today with a 13 man pitching staff.

Is Santana really a better OF than Escobar? Or better enough to make a difference? I don't think you need Santana to protect against the 2 OFs down scenario.  I think Escobar can do that.  I'd rather see if Adrianza's good ST was real or a mirage and give him a shot. 

 

As for the other spot, just can't believe in Vargas given his track record. He hasn't really performed lately outside of a hot streak last year. Park hasn't either but he he at least looked good in ST and they had enough faith in him to give him a 12m contract. Both will get their shot this year. I don't think that the 40 man is that big of an issue - the team can always designate Buddy Boshers or Randy Rosario to make a spot. We can keep both Vargas and Park on the 40 man for THIS YEAR. After that, we're going to potentially hit a crunch so this is the year to see which one to keep and that means playing them. I say Park first, then Vargas because that matches their likelihood of success.  

Edited by LA VIkes Fan, 21 April 2017 - 12:52 PM.

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#152 drjim

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 12:59 PM

 

Based on the original question...

Tonkin has been placed in the long relief/mop-up role. There have been several times that threads on TD have looked at him historically and shown that he is far better suited to a setup role, pitching 1 inning or less at a time. Molitor is not going to use him that way so let him go. I'm sure he would appreciate it.

 

Eduardo Escobar has reminded everyone why he wears a MLB uniform, showing up healthy and performing like he displayed himself in 2015. I think there is no need to retain Adrainza. If someone gets hurt we have Vielma on the 40 man. We also have Goodrum and Reginatto (that would be a feel good story for this career MiLBer) hitting well in AAA. If Adrianza is put on the 25 man roster I am going to completely lose it regarding this FO.

 

The obvious choice is Vargas. Mauer is hitting poorly so far this year and getting very little rest. Were he to sit games where the opposing starting pitcher was LH it would be good for everybody. It would also give Molitor an option off the bench at times.

 

The fact that they came north with Mauer our only 1B was weak on the part of the people making up the roster. That is the kindest way I can word my opinion of that move.

 

I don't think the Twins should give up on Tonkin, but I also don't get why people think the Twins should structure their bullpen to get him only one inning stints and primarily against RHHs. He'd probably be better at it, but I assume that would be the case for most relievers. 

 

He's the 5th RH in the pen right now. That's going to lead to more low leverage, multi-inning appearances. If others falter or get hurt, he'll get his chance, but hasn't exactly done anything to earn it any sooner.

Papers...business papers.

#153 Oldgoat_MN

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 01:20 PM

 

I don't think the Twins should give up on Tonkin, but I also don't get why people think the Twins should structure their bullpen to get him only one inning stints and primarily against RHHs. He'd probably be better at it, but I assume that would be the case for most relievers. 

 

He's the 5th RH in the pen right now. That's going to lead to more low leverage, multi-inning appearances. If others falter or get hurt, he'll get his chance, but hasn't exactly done anything to earn it any sooner.

 

I have not given up on Tonkin. I think he may very well be a fine MLB pitcher. Somewhere else.

In 2012 the Twins traded Danny Valencia to Boston for a guy who is now 26 years old and playing AA ball for Miami. Danny hit poorly for Gardy's Twins. Valencia went on the post an OPS of >.850 two of the next 3 years, with a .792 OPS the year after that.

 

You have to use players in a way that helps them succeed. My opinion of dropping Tonkin is not that I don't think he could be valuable, but rather that I don't see Molitor ever using him in a way that helps him succeed.

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#154 Sconnie

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 05:06 PM

He's on the 40 man. If he keeps this up he will, even if it is September.

catchers get injured, players go thru cold streaks, it's a long season.

The odds are stacked against him, though I hope he does debut this year and earn his spot in the bigs

#155 LA VIkes Fan

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 05:12 PM

Using players the best way is not our strong suit. It's one of the problems with not having a very good roster. People get forced into a level above their present level - witness Pressley and Buxton in particular. I think Tonkin might be able to succeed on a better team although it would be nice to see us try to use him in a way that gives him the best chance for success. I just don't think we have the talent level for that luxury.   


#156 Riverbrian

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 05:35 PM

If it was me... I'm not dropping any pitcher from the 25 man until they have proven they deserve it. 

 

I'm not there yet but the first two on my list based on performance are Gibson and Hughes. My leash on those guys is getting tighter by the start.  

 

Until we have a clear fail... I'm waiting for a pitcher to get injured before I reduce to 12 pitchers and add that needed extra hitter. I would like the Twins to reward good performance. 

 

I wouldn't have started with 13... but I'll stay at 13 as long as everyone is performing. 

 

While I wait for a pitcher to go down. I'm giving Danny Santana about 3 straight starts and I tell him... you get 3 games to show us something. What would he have to show? That he can actually contribute to a win or at least raise his metrics. If he doesn't... down he goes and up comes Vargas. 

 

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#157 yarnivek1972

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 06:11 PM

catchers get injured, players go thru cold streaks, it's a long season.
The odds are stacked against him, though I hope he does debut this year and earn his spot in the bigs


The fact that catchers get injured only increases the chances that Garver comes up some time this year. I don't think it is at all likely that JR Murphy gets called up. It's far more likely he gets DFA to make room for someone else on the 40 man at some point.
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#158 Sconnie

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 08:31 PM

The fact that catchers get injured only increases the chances that Garver comes up some time this year. I don't think it is at all likely that JR Murphy gets called up. It's far more likely he gets DFA to make room for someone else on the 40 man at some point.

i think Murphy is the first callup to conserve service time for Garver, but they aren't dropping a pitcher to add a 3rd catcher.

Edited by Sconnie, 21 April 2017 - 08:32 PM.


#159 drjim

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 08:44 PM

i think Murphy is the first callup to conserve service time for Garver, but they aren't dropping a pitcher to add a 3rd catcher.


He's not a good enough prospect to conserve service time.

But Murphy may get the first call if the front office wants to get one more look, especially if it's as a backup.
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#160 Mr. Brooks

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 09:15 PM

i think Murphy is the first callup to conserve service time for Garver, but they aren't dropping a pitcher to add a 3rd catcher.


Why would service time even be a consideration for Garver?
He's already under team control through his age 33 season at a minimum.
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