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Article: Report From The Fort: Berrios Gone, Duffey v. Mejia

jose berrios tyler duffey adalberto mejia
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#41 Riverbrian

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 07:06 AM

 

So, when will we see Berrios up in the Bigs? With Mejia and Duffey blocking Berrios' path to the Bigs I have a pessimistic feeling we won't see Berrios till at least mid June to mid July since there it doesn't look like the Twins will have a pitcher for Berrios to replace.

 

 

I can't give you an exact date

 

But...

 

In 2016... Alex Meyer was called up from Rochester on April 25 because both Gibson and Santana hit the DL.

 

2015... Trevor May was called up from Rochester on April 11 because Nolasco needed the DL.

 

2014... Kris Johnson was called up from Rochester on May 1 because Mike Pelfrey was DL bound. 

 

An opening day starting 5 has stayed intact as the starting 5 for the entire year like maybe... zero times in the history of all teams in all of baseball (Someone can fact check that statement because it seems like a big needle/haystack project and I don't have that kind of time). :)

 

Historically... The starting 5 can't even make it out of the month of April it seems. 

 

We will see Berrios soon enough unless he looks like he isn't ready in Rochester. So... I'd really focus on pitching good for Rochester right now if I'm Jose.

 

 

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#42 DJL44

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 07:12 AM

Berardino of the Pioneer Press reporting that Duffey had his changeup working yesterday. 

 

http://www.twincitie...ed-to-triple-a/

 

"Flashing a much-improved changeup that he used to both righties and lefties, Duffey produced a whopping 21 swing-and-miss strikes while going to just a pair of three-ball counts."


#43 jorgenswest

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 07:31 AM

In support of riverbrian's statement, 177 pitchers started at least 1 game in April last year. That is 27 pitchers beyond an opening day starting rotation.
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#44 Hosken Bombo Disco

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 07:39 AM

I can't give you an exact date
 
But...
 
In 2016... Alex Meyer was called up from Rochester on April 25 because both Gibson and Santana hit the DL.
 
2015... Trevor May was called up from Rochester on April 11 because Nolasco needed the DL.
 
2014... Kris Johnson was called up from Rochester on May 1 because Mike Pelfrey was DL bound. 
 
An opening day starting 5 has stayed intact as the starting 5 for the entire year like maybe... zero times in the history of all teams in all of baseball (Someone can fact check that statement because it seems like a big needle/haystack project and I don't have that kind of time). :)
 
Historically... The starting 5 can't even make it out of the month of April it seems. 
 
We will see Berrios soon enough unless he looks like he isn't ready in Rochester. So... I'd really focus on pitching good for Rochester right now if I'm Jose.

Yes. However your last statement bothers me, because we already know Berrios can succeed at AAA. He shouldn't need to prove it over and over. And maybe Meyer's career takes a different turn if he was promoted in 2014 when he was pitching well.

But what really bothers me about the Berrios situation is the phony "competition" he was in for the fifth spot, when evidence indicates they had their minds made up before spring training started. Reminds me too much of the Trevor May competition last spring.
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#45 Riverbrian

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 07:41 AM

 

Only in the Twins organization would pitchers like Duffey and Mejia block their top pitching prospect.  

 

1. I don't agree with the word "Block" because it makes Hector Santiago, Kyle Gibson, Phil Hughes all seem insurmountable and injury proof. There are a variety of reasons why Berrios will start in AAA and why it makes sense. 

 

2. Giolito, Lopez and Kopech will start 2017 in the minors for the Chicago White Sox. Even with Rodon going down with an injury. The White Sox will not start Giolito, Lopez or Kopech and instead roll with someone named Holmberg as the 5th starter. 

 

3. Tyler Glasnow... will probably start in AAA while the Pirates go with Hutchison or Brault. 

 

4. Jose DeLeon... Despite hearing a lot of comments over the winter about Jose DeLeon's immediate MLB Readiness. Jose DeLeon will not be able to show that readiness immediately because the final spot went to Andriese. 

 

5. Josh Hader... isn't going to be opening in Milwaukee. He's already been assigned to the minors and will wait his turn while Garza and Peralta and Nelson give it a shot. 

 

6. Sean Newcomb... You won't see him either... The Braves paid 7.5 million to RA Dickey. Newcomb will have to wait.  

 

Every team in MLB handles it this way for a variety of reasons. 

 

In my opinion... Every MLB team would have sent Berrios down to AAA to start the season especially when you consider his lack of spring game action... his 8 plus ERA in 2016... Service Time Management... Rotation Depth Considerations and other things.   

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#46 mikelink45

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 07:46 AM

I felt that there were comments all Spring that hinted at the Berrios demotion.  It would have been nice to see him get one ST start first, but more and more I feel like Berrios needs to go somewhere else.  Let another team straighten out whatever is keeping him from prospering.  I do not have faith that the Twins no how to do it.  


#47 Riverbrian

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 07:49 AM

 

Yes. However your last statement bothers me, because we already know Berrios can succeed at AAA. He shouldn't need to prove it over and over. And maybe Meyer's career takes a different turn if he was promoted in 2014 when he was pitching well.

But what really bothers me about the Berrios situation is the phony "competition" he was in for the fifth spot, when evidence indicates they had their minds made up before spring training started. Reminds me too much of the Trevor May competition last spring.

 

He dominated AAA and then he got called up and didn't dominate MLB. He did the complete opposite. 

 

If he starts in AAA this year and doesn't dominate AAA... Are you advocating that the Twins call him up anyway because he dominated AAA last year? IMO... He is going to need to pitch better than Duffey or Mejia in Rochester to get that first crack at the very least. 

 

As for the phony competition. Berrios should be hoping for phony competition because if it was an actual competition... he would have lost. 

 

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#48 Hosken Bombo Disco

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 07:57 AM

He dominated AAA and then he got called up and didn't dominate MLB. He did the complete opposite. 
 
If he starts in AAA this year and doesn't dominate AAA... Are you advocating that the Twins call him up anyway because he dominated AAA last year? IMO... He is going to need to pitch better than Duffey or Mejia in Rochester to get that first crack at the very least. 
 
As for the phony competition. Berrios should be hoping for phony competition because if it was an actual competition... he would have lost.

lost to.. Hughes? :)

Yes I think Berrios should be in the majors. Period. I get that there will be an opening in the rotation soon for some reason or another. If it's true they are only sending him down to stretch him out, then they can easily put a date on his return or name exactly how many starts he will make in Rochester before being called back up. Does that help you understand where I'm coming from?
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#49 FormerMinnasotan

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 08:12 AM

I can't give you an exact date

But...

In 2016... Alex Meyer was called up from Rochester on April 25 because both Gibson and Santana hit the DL.

2015... Trevor May was called up from Rochester on April 11 because Nolasco needed the DL.

2014... Kris Johnson was called up from Rochester on May 1 because Mike Pelfrey was DL bound.

An opening day starting 5 has stayed intact as the starting 5 for the entire year like maybe... zero times in the history of all teams in all of baseball (Someone can fact check that statement because it seems like a big needle/haystack project and I don't have that kind of time). :)

Historically... The starting 5 can't even make it out of the month of April it seems.

We will see Berrios soon enough unless he looks like he isn't ready in Rochester. So... I'd really focus on pitching good for Rochester right now if I'm Jose.

I am not concerned about Berrios pitching well in Rochester. He will be fine there. My concern is that while dominating in Rochester Berrios will be as MLB ready as he was last year. The Twins staff has certain details on what they want to see from Berrios and I doubt Berrios will do that in Rochester as that seemed to be the case last year. I feel Berrios needs more of the Twins staff coaching him rather than the Red Wings staff as I feel Berrios reverts to his "bad habits" in Rochester because he can get away with it. Plus hitters in AAA will not challenge Berrios enough to force him to get better. Just hope he proves me wrong and actually does well with the Big league club this year.
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#50 Riverbrian

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 09:11 AM

 

lost to.. Hughes? :)

Yes I think Berrios should be in the majors. Period. I get that there will be an opening in the rotation soon for some reason or another. If it's true they are only sending him down to stretch him out, then they can easily put a date on his return or name exactly how many starts he will make in Rochester before being called back up. Does that help you understand where I'm coming from?

 

I think I've understood you along. However...  I told my wife I understood last week and I came home from the Grocery Store with Cottage Cheese. Turns out that she wanted Broccoli. 

 

GM's put together a roster during the Winter and that is what they do. You don't sign Jason Castro to a 24 million dollar deal and then tell him that he will be competing for a roster spot with Gimenez, Murphy and Garver. The GM will immediately project Castro as the #1 and there will be no competition for that spot regardless if Garver hits .500 while Castro hits .145. If the GM doesn't do this type of thing... he will never get a player to sign with him. 

 

I'm pretty sure that the GM decided that Santiago would have a rotation spot and no competition for that spot when he picked up the multi million dollar option. He has to make decisions like that well before spring training. The GM decided that Sano would be the starting 3B with no competition when Plouffe was released and no significant 3B was signed to replace Plouffe.  

 

The GM has to make these type of decisions prior to spring training because he needs to know if he should pick up this player or that player and in the process of doing this...  he is basically locking down spots on the opening day roster for a majority of the players (if they remain healthy in spring training).

 

By the time he is done the majority of the opening day roster is locked down before the first player rolls into the Fort. There will be only a couple of legit battles and even those legit battles probably start with a strong favorite that has to lose the job because GM's have to project a front runner to determine need and level of replacement.  

 

I have no idea if Berrios had a legitimate shot at the rotation but IMO... I don't think it is good strategy for a manager to tell someone fairly important that he has no shot at the rotation.

 

Or maybe he did... "You have our blessing to join team Puerto Rico. We think it will be a long shot for you to make the opening day rotation. You'll report to Rochester when you return... don't worry about it... we believe you are important part of our future... have fun representing your country". Or "It's your choice... but if you choose to go to Puerto Rico for the WBC... you will have no shot at making the rotation. Your call... go if you want and please understand the ramifications of your decision" Molitor or someone may have had a conversation like that with Berrios before he left Ft. Myers. Maybe the Twins said "Have fun... we will be watching". I don't know but I don't believe... Molitor showed up one day at Ft. Myers... looked around and asked Allen where Berrios was??? Only to be shocked that he took off for the WBC last night. Berrios going to Puerto Rico was probably already baked into the decision making process. He reported to Rochester right quick after returning.  

 

Baseball and the CBA basically dictate that you must stash younger players in AAA because you will need a decent replacement or 3 or 4 during the season. Every team does it... Pitchers with options... even amazing ones... start the year in AAA like 95% of the time because they can be stashed in AAA and the veterans can't. It'll happen again next year and it'll happen again on every major league team.

 

I think it's incredible that Mejia is still a consideration. Or Duffey for that matter... since they are still stashable. 

 

I just made the word "Stashable" up.:go:

 

 

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#51 Riverbrian

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 09:17 AM

 

I am not concerned about Berrios pitching well in Rochester. He will be fine there. My concern is that while dominating in Rochester Berrios will be as MLB ready as he was last year. The Twins staff has certain details on what they want to see from Berrios and I doubt Berrios will do that in Rochester as that seemed to be the case last year. I feel Berrios needs more of the Twins staff coaching him rather than the Red Wings staff as I feel Berrios reverts to his "bad habits" in Rochester because he can get away with it. Plus hitters in AAA will not challenge Berrios enough to force him to get better. Just hope he proves me wrong and actually does well with the Big league club this year.

 

You could be right on all of that. I have no idea and I won't assume anything about the level of coaching at the big leagues or AAA since I've never watched them do their jobs. 

 

Concern isn't the right word for me. I just simply hope that Berrios will be really good in Rochester and if he is better than Dufffey or Mejia in Rochester... He will get called up when the first man up is called for. 

 

I'm like everyone else... I'm tapping my foot waiting for Berrios to give us MLB hope for the future. I just don't believe that starting April 3 in Minnesota will speed up the process... in my opinion. 

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#52 Bill Brown69

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 09:35 AM

Everyone get ready for this. Berrios an whoever loses from the Duffy/Mejia battle will pitch as far apart in the rotation as possible and the first call will likely be determined by who is closest to stay on their normal schedule. And that is the way it should be assuming they are comparable performance wise.

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#53 IndianaTwin

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 09:50 AM

 

I think I've understood you along. However...  I told my wife I understood last week and I came home from the Grocery Store with Cottage Cheese. Turns out that she wanted Broccoli.... 

 

 

Whenever that happens to me, I switch to ice cream. Happy wife, happy life.

 


#54 Hosken Bombo Disco

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 10:27 AM

I think I've understood you along. However...  I told my wife I understood last week and I came home from the Grocery Store with Cottage Cheese. Turns out that she wanted Broccoli. 
 
GM's put together a roster during the Winter and that is what they do. You don't sign Jason Castro to a 24 million dollar deal and then tell him that he will be competing for a roster spot with Gimenez, Murphy and Garver. The GM will immediately project Castro as the #1 and there will be no competition for that spot regardless if Garver hits .500 while Castro hits .145. If the GM doesn't do this type of thing... he will never get a player to sign with him. 
 
I'm pretty sure that the GM decided that Santiago would have a rotation spot and no competition for that spot when he picked up the multi million dollar option. He has to make decisions like that well before spring training. The GM decided that Sano would be the starting 3B with no competition when Plouffe was released and no significant 3B was signed to replace Plouffe.  
 
The GM has to make these type of decisions prior to spring training because he needs to know if he should pick up this player or that player and in the process of doing this...  he is basically locking down spots on the opening day roster for a majority of the players (if they remain healthy in spring training).
 
By the time he is done the majority of the opening day roster is locked down before the first player rolls into the Fort. There will be only a couple of legit battles and even those legit battles probably start with a strong favorite that has to lose the job because GM's have to project a front runner to determine need and level of replacement.  
 
I have no idea if Berrios had a legitimate shot at the rotation but IMO... I don't think it is good strategy for a manager to tell someone fairly important that he has no shot at the rotation.
 
Or maybe he did... "You have our blessing to join team Puerto Rico. We think it will be a long shot for you to make the opening day rotation. You'll report to Rochester when you return... don't worry about it... we believe you are important part of our future... have fun representing your country". Or "It's your choice... but if you choose to go to Puerto Rico for the WBC... you will have no shot at making the rotation. Your call... go if you want and please understand the ramifications of your decision" Molitor or someone may have had a conversation like that with Berrios before he left Ft. Myers. Maybe the Twins said "Have fun... we will be watching". I don't know but I don't believe... Molitor showed up one day at Ft. Myers... looked around and asked Allen where Berrios was??? Only to be shocked that he took off for the WBC last night. Berrios going to Puerto Rico was probably already baked into the decision making process. He reported to Rochester right quick after returning.  
 
Baseball and the CBA basically dictate that you must stash younger players in AAA because you will need a decent replacement or 3 or 4 during the season. Every team does it... Pitchers with options... even amazing ones... start the year in AAA like 95% of the time because they can be stashed in AAA and the veterans can't. It'll happen again next year and it'll happen again on every major league team.
 
I think it's incredible that Mejia is still a consideration. Or Duffey for that matter... since they are still stashable. 
 
I just made the word "Stashable" up.:go:

I also think Hughes is stashable in the bullpen :)
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#55 mlhouse

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 11:32 AM

 

It's all relative. For some teams their top pitching prospect is a can't-miss stud who would never put himself in a position to be blocked by marginal back-end pitchers. For other teams that top pitching prospect is an at-best mid-rotation guy that is mightily struggling to leap from AAA to MLB.

 

When your top pitching prospect is completely and utterly out of his element against major league hitters, and hasn't shown any progress towards competence, then yeah it makes sense to let them develop in the minors where they won't utterly destroy his own and your team's morale.

 

What team moral? They lost 103 games............as far as "not shown any competence", I notice you edited out Berrios' ERA from AAA being under 2.60 over 150 total innings?  WHat more does he have to prove in AAA or any level of the minors?  

 

If Berrios is truly not ready for the major leagues we need to fully examine our farm system and how it develops players.  His career minor league ERA is 2.89 and career K/9 is 9.6.  At every level he has pitched in he has been at least 2 years younger than his competition (although I think these measures are a little bit skewed).  While for the Twins he may have been brought up quickly, he has had a pretty much stepwise progression through the minors.  

 

So, where is the problem? YOu could also extend this to Twins hitting prospects who also seem to require a lot of adjustment to be able to hit major league pitching, and seem to also lack a lot of fundamentals.  

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#56 drjim

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 12:11 PM

I felt that there were comments all Spring that hinted at the Berrios demotion. It would have been nice to see him get one ST start first, but more and more I feel like Berrios needs to go somewhere else. Let another team straighten out whatever is keeping him from prospering. I do not have faith that the Twins no how to do it.


Why stop at Berrios? Get rid of everyone!
Papers...business papers.

#57 Darius

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 03:14 PM

All of the outrage, in general, isn't really unwarranted, as some want to play it. I feel the same overall about the perpetual ineptitude in regards to decision making, and the BS fed to this fan base for nearly a decade.

On this particular topic, I'm not sure I expect Berrios or Chagrois to turn into anything at this point, so this in itself isn't overly irritating.

But, who is at fault here? That's what I'd like to know. Why is it that this team pulls all of these highly talented and skilled individuals into its farm system every year, and nothing of worth ever comes out of the back end (since the late 90s/early 2000s)? When will these apparent coaching issues be fixed?

#58 Deduno Abides

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 03:29 PM

I can't give you an exact date
 
But...
 
In 2016... Alex Meyer was called up from Rochester on April 25 because both Gibson and Santana hit the DL.
 
2015... Trevor May was called up from Rochester on April 11 because Nolasco needed the DL.
 
2014... Kris Johnson was called up from Rochester on May 1 because Mike Pelfrey was DL bound. 
 
An opening day starting 5 has stayed intact as the starting 5 for the entire year like maybe... zero times in the history of all teams in all of baseball (Someone can fact check that statement because it seems like a big needle/haystack project and I don't have that kind of time). :)
 
Historically... The starting 5 can't even make it out of the month of April it seems. 
 
We will see Berrios soon enough unless he looks like he isn't ready in Rochester. So... I'd really focus on pitching good for Rochester right now if I'm Jose.


On the way out the door, Molitor told Berrios to go to Rochester and prove he belongs in the majors, singing, "Do you know the way to win, Jose?"
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#59 Taildragger8791

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 04:27 PM

 

What team moral? They lost 103 games............as far as "not shown any competence", I notice you edited out Berrios' ERA from AAA being under 2.60 over 150 total innings?  WHat more does he have to prove in AAA or any level of the minors?  

 

If Berrios is truly not ready for the major leagues we need to fully examine our farm system and how it develops players.  His career minor league ERA is 2.89 and career K/9 is 9.6.  At every level he has pitched in he has been at least 2 years younger than his competition (although I think these measures are a little bit skewed).  While for the Twins he may have been brought up quickly, he has had a pretty much stepwise progression through the minors.  

 

So, where is the problem? YOu could also extend this to Twins hitting prospects who also seem to require a lot of adjustment to be able to hit major league pitching, and seem to also lack a lot of fundamentals.  

 

Dominating AAA doesn't prove MLB readiness by itself. They aren't sending him back there to make him dominate AAA some more. They're sending him back there to work on the root cause of his severe struggles he encountered trying to pitch to actual MLB hitting. He's proven that he can't hang with MLB hitters right now.

 

Where do you draw the line on a young pitcher with regards to letting them work through struggles or sending them back to the minors with things to work on? 7.00+ ERA? 10.00 ERA+? You have to draw a line somewhere. He's already north of 8.00 in MLB and didn't show any improvement in camp or the WBC. Why would you run him out there again before having confidence that he's made an effective adjustment?

 

The guy is young and he's an extremely hard worker. He'll get there but you have to have patience. It's perfectly okay to give him a controlled environment to get comfortable with his mechanical adjustments before throwing him out there against the best competition in the world again. Trying to do that at the MLB level while getting utterly hammered and knocked out of the game after 3 innings isn't going to be very productive.

Edited by Taildragger8791, 26 March 2017 - 04:27 PM.

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#60 Dantes929

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 04:34 PM

 

We should start a collection of all the banal things the Twins do, similar to all other orgs, that result in a post with "only in the Twins org would..."

I don't know if it falls in that basket but I especially liked the comments back in the day of the "there is no way any serious playoff contender would have the likes of Drew Butera or Nick Punto on their 40 man roster much less their 25 man roster" variety. Both subsequently playing on two playoff teams and each on WS winners.

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