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Article: Cool Heat: Shaggy Is A Closer In Waiting

jt chargois
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#21 drjim

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 11:16 AM

 

I would think that the way to prove k/9 and k/bb are effective would be an associated low ERA....

 

Not in that few of innings, and especially not when projecting effectiveness going forward.

 

And especially not for relievers.

Edited by drjim, 20 March 2017 - 11:16 AM.

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#22 drjim

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 11:20 AM

 

Perkins' point in the interview is that he prefers to have a clearly defined role to one that changes day to day based on game situations. Be it closer, 8th inning, 7th inning, or long relief. He talks about adrenaline and preparation and how routine helps during a 162 game season. Its a fair point but I tend to think a more communicative manager might be able to address some of these concerns and get more flexibility out of his players.

 

I think there can be some flexibility, but not nearly as much as is one might think. It might be something like "you have this sequence of hitters after the 6th inning" more than you are only going to pitch in the 8th or be a closer.

 

It is too hard to chase leverage, pitchers can't warm up quickly and cool down and expect to get up again. There is a reason relievers are sequenced based on situation.

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#23 Mike Sixel

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 11:23 AM

 

I think there can be some flexibility, but not nearly as much as is one might think. It might be something like "you have this sequence of hitters after the 6th inning" more than you are only going to pitch in the 8th or be a closer.

 

It is too hard to chase leverage, pitchers can't warm up quickly and cool down and expect to get up again. There is a reason relievers are sequenced based on situation.

 

I do agree that there is some middle ground that is more realistic.

 

The only actual research on manager effectiveness is based on RP usage, including warming them up (though that data is VERY HARD to collect). It is clear that getting RPs up and down a lot is very bad for them. So, you'd have to be very well planned out to be more flexible....and have lots of guys you can send to AAA and back to get them some rest.

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I don't know, it is a site to discuss sports, not airline safety.....maybe we should take it less seriously?


#24 Willihammer

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 11:41 AM

I think there can be some flexibility, but not nearly as much as is one might think. It might be something like "you have this sequence of hitters after the 6th inning" more than you are only going to pitch in the 8th or be a closer.
 
It is too hard to chase leverage, pitchers can't warm up quickly and cool down and expect to get up again. There is a reason relievers are sequenced based on situation.

That's where communication comes in. A good manager, IMO, gives players insight into his thought process so that they are looking at score, days rest, spot in the opponents order, handedness, etc, all the components of leverage, so that everyone is on the same page.

Well, there's that.

-Dark Star, RIP


#25 drjim

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 11:58 AM

 

That's where communication comes in. A good manager, IMO, gives players insight into his thought process so that they are looking at score, days rest, spot in the opponents order, handedness, etc, all the components of leverage, so that everyone is on the same page.

 

I agree, but would also argue this naturally settles into roles that we generally see and recognize (at least during the majority of the regular season).

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#26 Willihammer

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 12:55 PM

I agree, but would also argue this naturally settles into roles that we generally see and recognize (at least during the majority of the regular season).

Is it possible to give players the comfort of routine while also being friendly to analytics, that's the question I'm getting at. I think its possible to do both, it just requires the manager to define roles based on the components of leverage and not innings, save situation, etc.

Well, there's that.

-Dark Star, RIP


#27 USAFChief

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 01:06 PM

 

I think there can be some flexibility, but not nearly as much as is one might think. It might be something like "you have this sequence of hitters after the 6th inning" more than you are only going to pitch in the 8th or be a closer.

 

It is too hard to chase leverage, pitchers can't warm up quickly and cool down and expect to get up again. There is a reason relievers are sequenced based on situation.

concur.  I think the best answer is to have a bullpen full of good relievers, so that you don't have to worry so much about which one to use when.

 

Since that's difficult, to say the least, you're left with how to use what you have.  And planning for use based on situation is just extremely difficult to pull off.

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#28 Kwak

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 02:30 PM

 

concur.  I think the best answer is to have a bullpen full of good relievers, so that you don't have to worry so much about which one to use when.

 

Since that's difficult, to say the least, you're left with how to use what you have.  And planning for use based on situation is just extremely difficult to pull off.

But managers are paid to know their players' skills (availability and suitability).  When to change and when to leave the pitcher in.  Management by pitch count, inning, or batter is lazy and implies that the team either has little trust in their manager or is a back seat driver/puppet master.  


#29 Dr. Evil

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 02:50 PM

Time for Shaggy to close now. He got his coffee last year. He is good to go.
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#30 Mr. Brooks

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 03:19 PM

So how many closers in waiting are we up to now? At least 3 by my count.
Are we going to rotate them, or give them each one out in the 9th?

#31 D.C Twins

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 08:57 PM

Chargois at the 72nd pick.....Jay at #6......ugh. (sorry, wrong thread)


#32 drjim

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 03:51 PM

He isn't going to make this team. Too bad, it is right in front of him.

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#33 Thrylos

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 04:03 PM

After his last couple appearances, I'd say that Shaggy needs to spend some time in Rochester to get his command where it needs to be...

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#34 Halsey Hall

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 05:41 PM

Both Kintzler and Belisle started games today in the minors. Two innings each. Kintzler had a rough time of it I felt.

he gone!


#35 David HK

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 06:07 PM

Well, I'm all for Shaggy getting a shot.  Love all that I hear about his lively fastball, etc; something the Twinks have been sorely missing.  In fact I was licking my chops the last couple-three years about all those young flamethrowers we'd recently drafted, and not a single one of 'em, for reasons of injury or ineffectiveness, have been seen up top so far.  Shaggy was probably #1 on my list of those guys.  

 

Now, I don't have time to follow things on a daily basis, so I don't know what he's working on for this ST, if it's a change, or another pitch for the repertoire, but all I see is him getting hit hard, and having long-ass innings.  (to paraphrase Jim Mora), Closer?  C-c-c-closer?  You kiddin' me?


#36 goulik

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 07:38 PM

It's too bad the nickname "Louisiana Lightning" has already been used. How about "Louisiana Hot Sauce"?

  

I like it. Bayou Blaze?

Why not call it as we see it
"The Cajun Closer"

#37 drjim

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Posted 24 March 2017 - 01:06 PM

And Chargois is optioned.

He can work on his closing in Rochester.
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#38 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 24 March 2017 - 01:17 PM

 

concur.  I think the best answer is to have a bullpen full of good relievers, so that you don't have to worry so much about which one to use when.

 

Since that's difficult, to say the least, you're left with how to use what you have.  And planning for use based on situation is just extremely difficult to pull off.

Yeah, it's hard to predict what will happen in a few innings' time but there are a few things a manager can do to create a more flexible bullpen.

 

For example, it's the sixth inning of a tie game. The bases are loaded with no outs.

 

Call in your best reliever. Just do it. And teach your relievers that those situations will occasionally arise. They're the "eighth inning guy" 90% of the time but when an obviously critical situation arises earlier in the game, they should be ready to get the team out of the jam.

 

Far too often we've seen that kind of sixth inning situation pitched by the "sixth inning guy", which makes zero sense. Deal with the later disaster situations when they arise, if they arise at all. Use your best guys earlier in the game when it makes sense.

 

The manager doesn't need to do that often but there's some wiggle room in there I'd like to see explored more often; the "obviously critical" points of a game we all see unfold once every couple of weeks.


#39 Mike Sixel

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Posted 24 March 2017 - 01:27 PM

 

And Chargois is optioned.

He can work on his closing in Rochester.

 

Well then. Eventually they'll add some youth, but clearly not now.

I don't know, it is a site to discuss sports, not airline safety.....maybe we should take it less seriously?


#40 drjim

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Posted 24 March 2017 - 01:32 PM

Well then. Eventually they'll add some youth, but clearly not now.


If the youth is going to perform like he did, probably better that they don't add it.

His spring is a huge disappointment. The spot was right there and he coughed it up.
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