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Berardino: Twins build Culture Club with five low-cost veterans

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#41 Deduno Abides

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 03:44 AM

Wouldn't a better analogy for these veterans be The Expendables?
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#42 drjim

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 04:36 AM

Felix Hernandez killed himself and 2 people (who are suing his estate, btw) while driving his boat high on cocaine and way above the legal alcohol limit (Facts).

I'd say A was likely the correct answer here...


I thought that was Dozier driving.
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Papers...business papers.

#43 Platoon

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 05:27 AM

The is one indisputable factoid about Brian Dozier. And because the Twins have been irrelevant for so long, it could be considered a SSS point. But it's this: The Twins have had only two timeframes of possible contention, or if you prefer, general interest in the last 7? years. One is the last part of the miracle 2015 race for the second WC spot, and then the following year when hope sprung eternal. And BD was nowhere to be found. He is not the only player in history to be tarred with that particular brush, and the Twins have afforded little opportunity to enlarge that SSS. But it exists. Dozier is the best player on the Mn. Twins. Which is a lot like saying John Smith was the best Captain on the Titanic. But despite dangling him from a yard sign for 3 months on Falvines front yard, all we were offered is a decent level SP prospect. That's still troubling. The potential for Twins future success in the area that the position players contribute to will not be driven by Brian Dozier, but by Sano, Kepler, Buxton, Rosario, Polanco, and a SS TBD. If someone from that group does not become the leader and the face of the Twins, TF will be a very large food court at best.
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#44 DaveW

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 06:17 AM

This team would have lost 110 games had Dozier not put up an MVP season.

TBH I would prefer they trade Dozier for some front line pitching, but he absolutely was NOT the problem with the 2016 Twins, Dozier is highly respected in media circles and within clubhouses and front offices as one of the "good guys" in baseball. To suggest that his leadership was the reason why the Twins had historically bad pitching is preposterous.

In fact he was one of the (few) reasons to actually watch this team during the season last year.

I wish him the best wherever he lands.

Edited by DaveW, 20 March 2017 - 06:23 AM.

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#45 DaveW

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 06:20 AM

Felix Hernandez killed himself and 2 people (who are suing his estate, btw) while driving his boat high on cocaine and way above the legal alcohol limit (Facts).

I'd say A was likely the correct answer here...


Not sure which is more troubling with this statement:

1. Felix Hernandez is alive and well and is beloved in Seattle and across baseball.

2. Crapping on the grave of a dead early 20 year old. People make mistakes, there is no need to trash the kid (Jose Fernandez) that's a tragic story all around, lessons can certainly be learned, but to trash him like this? Come on.
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Aaron Hicks 2017 stats so far (5/17/17): .326 BA .464 OBP .616 SLG 1.080 OPS  7 HR 19 RBI 6 SB 22 BBs 1.8WAR
 


#46 DaveW

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 06:31 AM

Also fwiw: Fernandez was loved by his teammates, organization, city, country and troughout sports. By all accounts he was a great guy.

A great guy that unfortunately let substances cloud his judgement one night and he made a terrible mistake.
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#47 mikelink45

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 07:01 AM

I cannot quantify the manager effect, but I can see some managers who seem to move players to higher performance and seem to out maneuver the opposition.  I cannot put a number on this, but I would take Madden and Bochy any day.  And one of the reasons they succeed is that their job is more than the game itself, it is about creating the clubhouse culture.  Those teams do not sign washed out vets to make their team culture better.  The Stubbs, Vogelsong, Tepesch, Breslow, Belisle, Giminez signings do nothing for me.  

 

We have a Hall of Fame Manager and a massive collection of coaches, who played, have been around mlb and should be providing the leadership needed.  The young players do lack for wiley vets - they have Dozier, Mauer, Castro, Escobar, Santiago, Santana, Perkins, Hughes, Kintzler, Bosher, Belisle in the 29+  age group and could end up with more - that is half the active roster.  With the coaches, the three feel good old timers - Cuddyer, Hawkins, and Hunter, and this group they might consider a psychologist before cluttering up the team with more feel good vets.

 

http://m.twins.mlb.com/roster/

Edited by mikelink45, 20 March 2017 - 07:02 AM.

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#48 Mike Sixel

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 08:00 AM

Mike Trout, sucks as a leader, clearly part of the problem in CA....

I don't know, it is a site to discuss sports, not airline safety.....maybe we should take it less seriously?


#49 Doomtints

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 11:07 AM

 

More like "fewer than 3-4 wins/losses".

A manager worth 10 wins would be a $50m value to a baseball franchise and would be one of the biggest Moneyball coups in the history of the game.

 

So we are to believe now that managers barely affect games but pitch framers getting an extra strike a game are "moneyball coups"?

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#50 Mike Sixel

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 11:09 AM

 

So we are to believe now that managers barely affect games but pitch framers getting an extra strike a game are "moneyball coups"?

 

What do you think?

 

If a player win is worth 8 million a year or so....why wouldn't a manager win be worth that? 

 

Do you really think great managers are worth 10 more wins than the average manager?

I don't know, it is a site to discuss sports, not airline safety.....maybe we should take it less seriously?


#51 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 11:11 AM

So we are to believe now that managers barely affect games but pitch framers getting an extra strike a game are "moneyball coups"?

Yep, that's why elite pitch framers cost the outrageous sum of $6-8m a season.
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#52 Doomtints

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 11:29 AM

 

Yep, that's why elite pitch framers cost the outrageous sum of $6-8m a season.

 

The point is, people are advertising pitch framing as being worth much more than 4 games a year.


#53 Mike Sixel

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 11:35 AM

 

The point is, people are advertising pitch framing as being worth much more than 4 games a year.

 

We aren't talking pitch framing, we are talking manager value......what do the two have to do with each other?

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I don't know, it is a site to discuss sports, not airline safety.....maybe we should take it less seriously?


#54 Brandon Warne

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 12:01 PM

 

Not sure which is more troubling with this statement:

1. Felix Hernandez is alive and well and is beloved in Seattle and across baseball.

2. Crapping on the grave of a dead early 20 year old. People make mistakes, there is no need to trash the kid (Jose Fernandez) that's a tragic story all around, lessons can certainly be learned, but to trash him like this? Come on.

 

Eh. I'm not really sure how we've gotten to the point where society says you can't say things about people who make these tragic, horrific "mistakes." 

 

We don't go easy on everyday, ordinary people who drink, drive and kill others. 

 

It's probably a fine line -- that is, between pointing out what he did wrong and trashing him -- but I think we as a society are taking "c'mon, he just made a mistake" a bit too far. 

Edited by Brandon Warne, 20 March 2017 - 12:03 PM.

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#55 Brandon Warne

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 12:14 PM

My dude Grant made a good point on twitter: Yeah he made a mistake, but he'd be in jail for a long, long time if he'd somehow survived.

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#56 Vanimal46

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 12:26 PM

 

My dude Grant made a good point on twitter: Yeah he made a mistake, but he'd be in jail for a long, long time if he'd somehow survived.

 

All things being equal and no one died on the boat? Nah, he wouldn't be in jail for a long, long time. Because he's an athlete, sadly, is why. Double standards and the haves vs. have-nots in America...  


#57 Brandon Warne

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 12:28 PM

 

All things being equal and no one died on the boat? Nah, he wouldn't be in jail for a long, long time. Because he's an athlete, sadly, is why. Double standards and the haves vs. have-nots in America...  

 

I meant if he alone had survived. To your point...probably. 

 

But us saying he "made a mistake" isn't closing that gap, either. It's probably widening it. (edit: very minimally because nothing we do really matters)

Edited by Brandon Warne, 20 March 2017 - 12:28 PM.

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#58 DaveW

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 02:47 PM

Did I excuse him for it?? Did I ever say it was ok for him to do it or if he wouldn't have died he shouldn't have gotten punished? Just curious before you accuse me of "widening the gap" whatever that means.

I said he made a mistake and paid the ultimate price for it. I have one friend who was almost paralyzed due to a drunk driver, and another who drove his motorcycle wasted and died after he collided with an SUV at 90 MPH. Tragic mistake and he paid dearly, that doesn't make it any less sad to lose an otherwise good person at such a young age.

Not everything has to be so black and white you know...also his friends in the boat were also high and drunk at the time, they made mistakes as well getting in the boat and they paid the ultimate price as well.

Sad all around.

Also I'd wager that the majority of people on this site (whether they want to admit it or not) at least got in a car at one point in their life with a driver who was over the legal limit.

Edited by DaveW, 20 March 2017 - 02:51 PM.

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#59 ChiTownTwinsFan

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 03:25 PM

Back on topic please.
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#60 DaveW

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 03:27 PM

Of the 5 mentioned in this article only Beslie and Breslow interest me at all.

The rest? No reason why they should sniff the major league roster

Edited by DaveW, 20 March 2017 - 03:27 PM.

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