Jump to content

Providing independent coverage of the Minnesota Twins.
Subscribe to Twins Daily Email
Photo

Article: Risk Management: Backing Up Buck

byron buxton zack granite drew stubbs
  • Please log in to reply
37 replies to this topic

#21 Jham

Jham

    Junior Member

  • Members
  • 1,394 posts

Posted 15 March 2017 - 07:15 PM

I don't want to be Debbie does Downer, but Buxton didn't improve his K rate despite his power surge last year.  The HR were nice, but lack of power was a relatively small part of the problem compared to his ability to make contact.  We may want a Plan B ready to play just in case he struggles.  I'm not sure Kepler's return to earth gives that much more confidence... or Rosario's for that matter.  Hoping for lots and lots of maturing.


#22 D.C Twins

D.C Twins

    Cedar Rapids

  • Members
  • 142 posts

Posted 15 March 2017 - 07:30 PM

 

One interesting possibility I've heard discussed is this:

 

Park and Vargas to AAA.

Grossman the primary DH... extra outfielder (or infielder).

 

Grossman would be the primary DH, but obviously guys like Mauer, Sano, Rosario, Dozier, really anyone could DH on a given day. 

 

In that scenario, the one concern is that Sano will have to play some first base too. But Chris Gimenez can also play 1B, if he makes the team. 

 

I think there are some creative possibilities to start the season that would allow an "extra" hitter on the roster. 

 

I cannot express how much more that I want to see what Park and Vargas can bring to the table. We need to learn as much as possible this year to make solid plans going forward, not see if we can squeeze 2-3 additional (ultimately meaningless) wins at the expense of gaining important information for the future.  I personally don't see Grossman as part of those future plans.

  • glunn likes this

#23 snepp

snepp

    Curve Hanger

  • Twins Mods
  • 5,716 posts
  • LocationSioux Falls

Posted 15 March 2017 - 07:59 PM

Buxton did show a big improvement in his walk rate over the last half of his plate appearances, moving from putrid to above league average. So while his ability to avoid the K didn't improve much, his discipline as a whole appears that it did, and that's a good start.

  • ChiTownTwinsFan, Steve Lein, glunn and 2 others like this

#24 USAFChief

USAFChief

    Anyone got a smoke?

  • Twins Mods
  • 18,672 posts
  • LocationTucson

Posted 15 March 2017 - 11:14 PM

I don't think we should just accept Buxton risking injury during practice. I think dives like that should be strictly forbidden unless the game counts.

And personally I'd be fine with banning dives in the regular season too unless they're in a pennant race. No reckless injuries till 2018.

Even during the regular season, and in a pennant race, you could argue the risk-reward doesn't add up. It's like running a red light to get to work faster. Your productivity may go up by one minute that day, maybe even every day. But you roll the dice wrong one day, just one day, and it was all not worth it, by a mile.

Buxton risking injury to slightly increase the chances of catching a ball is like gambling $100 million to win one dollar. It just makes no sense.

What are the odds that one out, if he makes the catch it, which is far from a sure thing, will win the game, let alone swing the pennant race? Probably lower than the odds that diving turns a single into a triple, as he misses the ball and it rolls to the wall.

Remember when Cuddyer slid head first into third and tore up his hand, ruining his season? That kind of risk is a much bigger danger to your season than the tiny advantage, if any, over sliding in feet first.

This macho, knucklehead culture of refusing to do anything to avoid injury should not be acceptable any more than saying it's cool to play Russian roulette. That's what it is. Buxton is not just playing Russian roulette with his own life, he's risking the entire future of the entire team and the hopes of the entire state. The coaches should put a stop to it--at least during practice games.

I disagree with every word in this post.

ML baseball is played at the very edge of human performance. That's both a requirement to succeed at this level of competition, and part of the reason we watch.

If Buxton, or any player, backs off from max effort, he's not helping the team. Players get hurt, always have always will, and there is no level of "back off" that will prevent that from happening. Should he also jog to first base every time he makes contact, to avoid hamstring pulls and ankle sprains? Stop stealing bases? Throw at half speed?

Play ball, Mr Buxton. Play hard.
  • ChiTownTwinsFan, Nick Nelson, luckylager and 8 others like this

I am not the paranoid you're looking for.


#25 glunn

glunn

    Head Moderator

  • Twins Mods
  • 8,082 posts
  • LocationBeverly Hills, CA

Posted 16 March 2017 - 12:11 AM

Isn't there some middle ground here?

 

Buxton has lost significant playing time from injuries associated with "max effort" on defense. Does it make sense for him to crash a lightly padded wall at full speed during practice? Spring training? A game where the Twins are down by 15 runs in the late innings? Where should the line be drawn?

 

From a fan perspective I love to see max effort. It's inspiring. On the other hand, Buxton is a very fast runner and if he goes all out without regard to the wall, then his career may be hampered or even ended. Buxton's speed is valuable, but also a liability if he hits a wall at full speed. 

 

If in some fantasy universe I were the manager, I would talk with Buxton often about a safer approach to walls, with emphasis on using the warning track, and I would show him films of the all-time greats, including Hunter.  As I recall, Hunter made a lot of web gems with fewer injuries per web gem than Buxton. I would also develop drills to refine Buxton's ability to locate the wall, using the most padded wall that money can buy. 

 

I love seeing any player crash the wall to make a great catch. However, Buxton runs so fast that I fear for his career every time the ball is hit deep.

 

 

  • Blackjack likes this

#26 Sconnie

Sconnie

    From the "right" side of the St Croix

  • Members
  • 3,055 posts
  • LocationNW Wisconsin

Posted 16 March 2017 - 05:06 AM

One interesting possibility I've heard discussed is this:

Park and Vargas to AAA.
Grossman the primary DH... extra outfielder (or infielder).

Grossman would be the primary DH, but obviously guys like Mauer, Sano, Rosario, Dozier, really anyone could DH on a given day.

In that scenario, the one concern is that Sano will have to play some first base too. But Chris Gimenez can also play 1B, if he makes the team.

I think there are some creative possibilities to start the season that would allow an "extra" hitter on the roster.

that would make the small side of the platoon even less effective if Giminez is the battery mate for Mauer and Castro - unless Kepler or Sano were 1b against lefties.

I would buy into this scenario though with the logic of considering Grossman a DH and not an outfielder. Then with Stubbs as the 4th outfielder and the depth is very secure in the OF.
  • glunn likes this

#27 Riverbrian

Riverbrian

    Goofy Moderator

  • Twins Mods
  • 17,299 posts
  • LocationGrand Forks, ND

Posted 16 March 2017 - 05:50 AM

One interesting possibility I've heard discussed is this:
 
Park and Vargas to AAA.
Grossman the primary DH... extra outfielder (or infielder).
 
Grossman would be the primary DH, but obviously guys like Mauer, Sano, Rosario, Dozier, really anyone could DH on a given day. 
 
In that scenario, the one concern is that Sano will have to play some first base too. But Chris Gimenez can also play 1B, if he makes the team. 
 
I think there are some creative possibilities to start the season that would allow an "extra" hitter on the roster.


This would be the keeping Escobar, Adrianaza and Danny Santana scenerio.
  • glunn likes this

A Skeleton walks into a bar and says... "Give me a beer... And a mop".

 

President of the "Baseball Player Positional Flexibility" Club 

Founded 4-23-16 

 

Strike Zone Automation Advocate


#28 Riverbrian

Riverbrian

    Goofy Moderator

  • Twins Mods
  • 17,299 posts
  • LocationGrand Forks, ND

Posted 16 March 2017 - 06:03 AM

I disagree with every word in this post.
ML baseball is played at the very edge of human performance. That's both a requirement to succeed at this level of competition, and part of the reason we watch.
If Buxton, or any player, backs off from max effort, he's not helping the team. Players get hurt, always have always will, and there is no level of "back off" that will prevent that from happening. Should he also jog to first base every time he makes contact, to avoid hamstring pulls and ankle sprains? Stop stealing bases? Throw at half speed?
Play ball, Mr Buxton. Play hard.


Yep

Never ask a player to turn it off... Ever.

We need more players like this... Not less.

You practice these type of plays to get better at doing them when they count.

Basketball players are worthless when they play carefully with 4 fouls trying to avoid the 5th.

It's the GM's job to have a suitable replacement whenever injuries occur and injuries occur even if they are bubble wrapped.

You can't spend 24 million on a guy who frames pitches because of the advantage it gives pitchers and then turn around and say that the advantage of robbing that guy of a triple isn't worth the risk.
  • ChiTownTwinsFan, USAFChief, glunn and 2 others like this

A Skeleton walks into a bar and says... "Give me a beer... And a mop".

 

President of the "Baseball Player Positional Flexibility" Club 

Founded 4-23-16 

 

Strike Zone Automation Advocate


#29 Blackjack

Blackjack

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 708 posts

Posted 16 March 2017 - 06:16 AM

 

 

 

.It's like running a red light to get to work faster. 

Love that line!!!! 

 

Like you say, keep doing risky behavior and sooner or later its going to bite you - hard!!

 

If I could, I'd give your post two likes!!!

  • glunn likes this

#30 Nick Nelson

Nick Nelson

    Owner

  • Administrators
  • 3,065 posts

Posted 16 March 2017 - 08:20 AM

 

If in some fantasy universe I were the manager, I would talk with Buxton often about a safer approach to walls, with emphasis on using the warning track, and I would show him films of the all-time greats, including Hunter.  As I recall, Hunter made a lot of web gems with fewer injuries per web gem than Buxton.

This is an interesting aspect. Hunter is now back in the organization, capable of once again serving as a mentor as he did during Buck's rookie year. 

 

Torii was, of course, known for the same kind of max-effort spectacular displays in center field. It was never really costly for him, with the exception of one fateful encounter with the wall at Fenway. Hopefully he can continue to enlighten Buxton on wall awareness and protecting his body while still going all-out.

  • glunn likes this

#31 Vanimal46

Vanimal46

    Minnesota Twins Whine Line Host

  • Members
  • 8,022 posts
  • LocationAustin, TX

Posted 16 March 2017 - 08:28 AM

 

I disagree with every word in this post.

ML baseball is played at the very edge of human performance. That's both a requirement to succeed at this level of competition, and part of the reason we watch.

If Buxton, or any player, backs off from max effort, he's not helping the team. Players get hurt, always have always will, and there is no level of "back off" that will prevent that from happening. Should he also jog to first base every time he makes contact, to avoid hamstring pulls and ankle sprains? Stop stealing bases? Throw at half speed?

Play ball, Mr Buxton. Play hard.

 

Hmm, on second thought, I propose Miguel Sano uses a segway any time he has to run the bases. No more hammy issues for him! 

 

02_tours_segway.png

  • glunn and Riverbrian like this

#32 Steve Lein

Steve Lein

    Senior Member - MiLB Report Contributor

  • Members
  • 1,515 posts

Posted 16 March 2017 - 08:33 AM

 

I would show him films of the all-time greats, including Hunter.  As I recall, Hunter made a lot of web gems with fewer injuries per web gem than Buxton. I would also develop drills to refine Buxton's ability to locate the wall, using the most padded wall that money can buy. 

 

Absolutely. As I alluded to earlier, Buxton makes these same awesome plays as guys like Hunter did (probably better ones), but he's not nearly as graceful in doing so. Especially the crashing into and landing parts. I don't think he's especially great at judging walls yet, and that's why he crashed so hard into it the other day and didn't come down on his feet.

  • glunn likes this

Scouting Report: Power: 30, Hitting: 50, Arm: 60, Defense: 45, Speed: 45. "Line drive swing and shows good contact and on-base abilities. Double's power at his peak. Strong arm from 2B or the OF, stiff hands. Not a fast runner, but above average instincts on the bases. Skinny body doesn't look the part, but will sneak up on you. ACL surgery sapped much of his athleticism." (Probably)


#33 ChiTownTwinsFan

ChiTownTwinsFan

    Rawr!

  • Twins Mods
  • 18,015 posts
  • LocationChiTown, where else?

Posted 16 March 2017 - 09:11 AM

 

I disagree with every word in this post.

ML baseball is played at the very edge of human performance. That's both a requirement to succeed at this level of competition, and part of the reason we watch.

If Buxton, or any player, backs off from max effort, he's not helping the team. Players get hurt, always have always will, and there is no level of "back off" that will prevent that from happening. Should he also jog to first base every time he makes contact, to avoid hamstring pulls and ankle sprains? Stop stealing bases? Throw at half speed?

Play ball, Mr Buxton. Play hard.

I agree with every word in this post.

 

 

 

In a word ... concur!

“Concern yourself not with what is right and what is wrong but with what is important.” ~Unknown


#34 USAFChief

USAFChief

    Anyone got a smoke?

  • Twins Mods
  • 18,672 posts
  • LocationTucson

Posted 16 March 2017 - 09:19 AM

Hmm, on second thought, I propose Miguel Sano uses a segway any time he has to run the bases. No more hammy issues for him! 
 
02_tours_segway.png


Sano really has lost a few pounds this winter.
  • glunn, Mike Sixel, Twins33 and 2 others like this

I am not the paranoid you're looking for.


#35 Brock Beauchamp

Brock Beauchamp

    Owner

  • Administrators
  • 18,569 posts

Posted 16 March 2017 - 10:13 AM

 

I disagree with every word in this post.

ML baseball is played at the very edge of human performance. That's both a requirement to succeed at this level of competition, and part of the reason we watch.

If Buxton, or any player, backs off from max effort, he's not helping the team. Players get hurt, always have always will, and there is no level of "back off" that will prevent that from happening. Should he also jog to first base every time he makes contact, to avoid hamstring pulls and ankle sprains? Stop stealing bases? Throw at half speed?

Play ball, Mr Buxton. Play hard.

Yeah, I'd prefer to see Buxton back off in exhibition games but I've learned that some athletes don't turn that stuff off and on based on situation. They're 100% GO TIME in every inning of every game.

 

And that's okay. I'd rather see that than a player routinely take off plays or jog down the line on a grounder.

  • glunn and Riverbrian like this

#36 diehardtwinsfan

diehardtwinsfan

    Twins Moderator

  • Twins Mods
  • 11,049 posts
  • LocationThe charred ruins of BYTO

Posted 16 March 2017 - 02:00 PM

 

Sano really has lost a few pounds this winter.

 

He's apparently gotten noticeably more attractive too.err.. oh wait, what did I say?

 

does this count as drunken posting?


#37 Sconnie

Sconnie

    From the "right" side of the St Croix

  • Members
  • 3,055 posts
  • LocationNW Wisconsin

Posted 16 March 2017 - 04:10 PM

This would be the keeping Escobar, Adrianaza and Danny Santana scenerio.

Sub Dantana with Stubbs?

Edited by Sconnie, 16 March 2017 - 04:10 PM.


#38 Riverbrian

Riverbrian

    Goofy Moderator

  • Twins Mods
  • 17,299 posts
  • LocationGrand Forks, ND

Posted 16 March 2017 - 06:02 PM

 

Sub Dantana with Stubbs?

 

AND EXPOSE DANTANA TO WAIVERS? 

 

;)

  • snepp and Sconnie like this

A Skeleton walks into a bar and says... "Give me a beer... And a mop".

 

President of the "Baseball Player Positional Flexibility" Club 

Founded 4-23-16 

 

Strike Zone Automation Advocate




Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: byron buxton, zack granite, drew stubbs