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Article: Running Down The Hall (Of Fame Ballot)

barry bonds jeff bagwell tim raines ivan rodriguez roger clemens
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#21 mikelink45

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Posted 04 January 2017 - 11:21 AM

 

I cannot see Mussina or Schilling in the HOF.

 

It took Blyleven, who had the 3rd highest strikeout total in the history of baseball upon his retirement, until the last year of eligibility to get in. His career FIP was 3.19. Mussina's was 3.57. Shilling's was 3.23. 

They both had fewer wins than Blyleven. I know that in these Sabermetric times we should look past wins, but it has always come into play. And if we are doing that, then we should realize that if Mike Mussina had played for the Kansas City Royals his name would not even be in this conversation.

 

Tim Raines will finally get in, and I am happy for him.

Good posting.  I think that your points are very good.  Mussina was always good, just not great, not the ace, not the pitcher you had to have for a big game.  He played on good teams and he filled his role, but I do not think he made the teams better.

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#22 nicksaviking

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Posted 04 January 2017 - 11:22 AM

 

I cannot see Mussina or Schilling in the HOF.

 

It took Blyleven, who had the 3rd highest strikeout total in the history of baseball upon his retirement, until the last year of eligibility to get in. His career FIP was 3.19. Mussina's was 3.57. Shilling's was 3.23. 

They both had fewer wins than Blyleven. I know that in these Sabermetric times we should look past wins, but it has always come into play. And if we are doing that, then we should realize that if Mike Mussina had played for the Kansas City Royals his name would not even be in this conversation.

 

Tim Raines will finally get in, and I am happy for him.

 

Had Mussina wanted the 300 wins he would have gotten it. He was only 30 shy and only 39-years-old.

 

I think the baseball community pretty rightfully recognized that Blyleven had been an overlooked pitcher so I don't know why you would look at either of these pitchers and say they shouldn't be in because they weren't as good as Blyleven.

 

After Clemens, Mussina and Schilling are the highest pitchers in terms of WAR that aren't in the HOF.

 

I think Mussina is pretty close to a lock to get in eventually, he was top 6 in Cy Young voting 9 times and one of the best fielding pitchers ever. If Schilling doesn't make it, it likely will have more to do with him being a lunatic. Not that I think that should necessarily keep him out, but it's not going to help him.

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#23 TheLeviathan

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Posted 04 January 2017 - 11:24 AM

I find it hilarious that Roger Clemens' name has been spelled incorrectly in what seems like 8 different ways in a matter of 1 page.  I'm not a stickler, I just think that's funny.

Edited by TheLeviathan, 04 January 2017 - 11:24 AM.

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#24 Oldgoat_MN

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Posted 04 January 2017 - 11:25 AM

 

 

Had Mussina wanted the 300 wins he would have gotten it. He was only 30 shy and only 39-years-old.

 

I think the baseball community pretty rightfully recognized that Blyleven had been an overlooked pitcher so I don't know why you would look at either of these pitchers and say they shouldn't be in because they weren't as good as Blyleven.

 

After Clemmons, Mussina and Schilling are the highest pitchers in terms of WAR that aren't in the HOF.

 

I think Mussina is pretty close to a lock to get in eventually. If Schilling doesn't it likely will have more to do with him being a lunatic. Not that I think that should necessarily keep him out, but it's not going to help him.

I'm not sure that they shouldn't be in. 

I just think it's odd that they are getting so much first ballot attention, based on the recent history of one particular pitcher who was clearly better than either of them.

Edited by Oldgoat_MN, 04 January 2017 - 11:26 AM.

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#25 mikelink45

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Posted 04 January 2017 - 11:29 AM

I am a small hall guy and would actually like to have an election to remove or down grade some of those who are in.  I am bothered by Bonds and Clemens, as much for their attitude as their acts so I probably would not vote for them, but I would not object either.  Bonds upped his production which never fell off, Clemens on the other hand had lost his luster and Boston was not anxious to keep him.  He had a second career, and as good as his first career was, it is his second, enhanced career that makes him the All Time Great.

 

Bagwell, Rodriquez, Walker, Raines - yes (I like their defense and I keep seeing too much emphasis just on offensive statistics)

 

Sosa, like McGwire was an interesting blip in the offensive fireworks, but before that no one saw him as HOF, neither were defensive giants, and unlike Bonds did not have anything to really boost them into the Hall without their steroid bombs. No to both.  

 

 

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#26 nicksaviking

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Posted 04 January 2017 - 11:39 AM

 

I find it hilarious that Roger Clemens' name has been spelled incorrectly in what seems like 8 different ways in a matter of 1 page.  I'm not a stickler, I just think that's funny.

 

Just pretend you don't see the ensuing edits to the posts previous to yours.


#27 Cody Christie

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Posted 04 January 2017 - 11:41 AM

Everyone should follow @NotMrTibbs on Twitter. He tracks HOF ballots as they are released

 

https://twitter.com/NotMrTibbs

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#28 jimmer

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Posted 04 January 2017 - 11:52 AM

Jack Morris had a career ERA+ of 105. 105. Only 5% above league average.

His FIP: 3.95

5.83K/9. 3.27BB/9

His WAR:55.8

Mussina and Schilling are way above him. WAY.

For those that like wins and losses (or is it just wins, excluding losses) his win % is .577. Well below Schilling and Mussina.

I know a lot of Twins fans love him for the one World Series with us, but he wasnt even a great playoff pitcher for his career. Schilling was easily a better regular season and post season pitcher.

Edited by jimmer, 04 January 2017 - 11:56 AM.

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#29 jimmer

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Posted 04 January 2017 - 11:54 AM

I'm not sure that they shouldn't be in.
I just think it's odd that they are getting so much first ballot attention, based on the recent history of one particular pitcher who was clearly better than either of them.

mussina and schilling are nowhere near on their first ballots. They have each been on the ballot multiple years

Edited by jimmer, 04 January 2017 - 11:54 AM.


#30 Oldgoat_MN

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Posted 04 January 2017 - 11:57 AM

 

mussina and schilling are nowhere near on their first ballots. They have each been on the ballot multiple years

 

Well if I actually look I can see that Mussina is on his 4th ballot and Schilling on his 5th.

Got it. Thanks

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#31 Willihammer

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Posted 04 January 2017 - 12:20 PM

Mussina has already been punished by the Win stat. The 2001 Cy Young vote is exhibit A. More IP and lower ERA than Clemens, his teammate. But Clemens had 20 wins to Mussina's 17 and got 122 Cy Young votes. Mussina got 2.

 

In 1992 he was screwed by the save. Mussina managed a 2.54 ERA pitching in the bandbox of Camden. But he only had 18 wins and Dennis Eckersley had 51 saves in 80 IP.

 

I am always amazed by how people remember Mussina. In my mind he was Halladay before Halladay. Quietly putting together huge seasons in a tough home park in a tough division with an arsenal of differently moving pitches and excellent command. Seems like when he faced the Twins you could book him for 8 IP and 2 ER.

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#32 biggentleben

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Posted 04 January 2017 - 01:32 PM

I'm always curious how many people have been to the Hall. It is fairly difficult to argue the inclusion/exclusion stuff in the same light once you've been there and found that Barry Bonds is displayed more often and more prominently than his own godfather. The biggest display when I visited of any single player (outside of Hank Aaron, because it was the anniversary of 715) was a roughly 8' tall Pete Rose diving head first into a bag. Roger Clemens was in multiple places in the museum. Yet, when I visited, Harmon Killebrew, Warren Spahn, and Jimmie Foxx were only displayed on their plaques, which are essentially displayed in an elaborate walk-in closet that my wife walked right past and into the gift shop, not paying any mind to the plaques, which tells you just how they appear to the natural flow of the rest of the museum.

 

Yet we spend hours typing up and researching hard core arguments about why someone should or should not have a plaque in a closet...Bonds, Clemens, Rose, Shoeless Joe, they're all on display in the Hall no matter the rotation of the Hall. Heck, McGwire and Sosa figure prominently as well, and I'm sure in 2018, they'll be featured quite a bit, whether or not they have a plaque.

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#33 Vanimal46

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Posted 04 January 2017 - 01:52 PM

 

Mussina has already been punished by the Win stat. The 2001 Cy Young vote is exhibit A. More IP and lower ERA than Clemens, his teammate. But Clemens had 20 wins to Mussina's 17 and got 122 Cy Young votes. Mussina got 2.

 

In 1992 he was screwed by the save. Mussina managed a 2.54 ERA pitching in the bandbox of Camden. But he only had 18 wins and Dennis Eckersley had 51 saves in 80 IP.

 

I am always amazed by how people remember Mussina. In my mind he was Halladay before Halladay. Quietly putting together huge seasons in a tough home park in a tough division with an arsenal of differently moving pitches and excellent command. Seems like when he faced the Twins you could book him for 8 IP and 2 ER.

 

Yep, I 'member.... He was one of the original Twins killers. 22-6 career record against them (!) with a 3.09 ERA in 230 IP. In fact, his record against the Twins is the best in his career, with the exception of a couple SSS where he only started against an NL team 1-4 times. 

Edited by Vanimal46, 04 January 2017 - 01:52 PM.

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#34 TheLeviathan

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Posted 04 January 2017 - 01:54 PM

Mussina and Radke always struck me as similar in the sense that they were underrated just by virtue of where they played. People didn't appreciate how good they were because they played in low limelight.  Mussina was much better than Radke, but I got a similar vibe.

 

I'd vote Mussina in personally.  The guy was tough as hell.

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#35 bluechipper

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Posted 04 January 2017 - 02:34 PM

How can people include Bonds and Clemens, and then leave off Rafael Palmeiro? The guy had 569 HRs and 3020 hits. The hypocrisy with people who think steroid users should be in is pretty bad.

 

Steroid users would not be on my ballot.

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#36 biggentleben

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Posted 04 January 2017 - 02:54 PM

 

How can people include Bonds and Clemens, and then leave off Rafael Palmeiro? The guy had 569 HRs and 3020 hits. The hypocrisy with people who think steroid users should be in is pretty bad.

 

Steroid users would not be on my ballot.

 

Palmeiro isn't on the ballot.

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#37 bluechipper

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Posted 04 January 2017 - 03:05 PM

 

Palmeiro isn't on the ballot.

Oh my bad. He's been off the ballot for 2 years now. How do the steroid voters not vote for him, with his numbers, and then vote for the other steroid guys? He was at 4.4%, which dropped him off. Still seems hypocritical to me.


#38 Vanimal46

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Posted 04 January 2017 - 03:50 PM

 

Oh my bad. He's been off the ballot for 2 years now. How do the steroid voters not vote for him, with his numbers, and then vote for the other steroid guys? He was at 4.4%, which dropped him off. Still seems hypocritical to me.

Palmeiro falling off was a result of the old, curmudgeon HOF voters who are no longer on the voting committee. This year with the new staff of voters, PED era players are getting their fair shot.

I'm 100% on board to elect Bonds, Clemens, and others from that era.  


#39 Thrylos

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Posted 04 January 2017 - 05:14 PM

 

 

 

 

Yet we spend hours typing up and researching hard core arguments about why someone should or should not have a plaque in a closet..

 

Here is the thing:This "plaque in a closet" provides additional income for former players.Someone like Tim Raines could double or triple his income because of that plaque.As long as there are people collecting Hall of Famer memorabilia and autographs, it matters.

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#40 jimmer

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Posted 04 January 2017 - 06:02 PM

I don't necessarily have an issue with the idea Palmeiro deserved to get in, some interesting info that makes me think others who still aren't in are more deserving:

 

OPS+

 

Palmeiro: 132

Larry Walker: 141

E Martinez: 147

Sheffield: 140

Manny Ramirez: 154

 

 

and from Today's Fangraphs chat:

 

Pud Galvin: Many voters are ok with voting for suspected PED users into the HOF, but nobody is clamoring for Raffy Palmeiro to get in. Why is that? He’s the best batter not named Bonds or Bagwell not in the HOF and has a better case than all non-Bonds/Bagwell/pitcher currently on the ballot. What’s up with that?

Dave Cameron: You are wildly overrating Rafael Palmeiro

Dave Cameron: He has a career 130 wRC+. Edgar Martinez is at 147. Larry Walker is at 140. Sheffield is 141. Manny Ramirez is 153.




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