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Does Posting Policy Apply Equally to All Users?

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#1 KirbyDome89

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Posted 02 January 2017 - 06:22 PM

I’ve taken issue with the recent handling of a thread and I have some concerns. Before I elaborate, I’m going to be VERY CLEAR that this isn’t an admonishment of all moderators (or even those involved) so there is no need for posts referencing the work mods do or how thankless the job is; this isn’t a trial and I’m not looking for evidence to condemn or exonerate. I was directed here via pm by one of the mods involved. Lastly, I’m not going to specifically name other posters, mods, or the thread as the concerns have to do with policy application and therefore calling out someone else by name is irrelevant.

 

I received an initial warning point in a thread because the discourse was deemed too personal. The pm sent by the mod explained why the point was issued. While I dispute some of the details involving the overall tone of the conversation and the timeliness of the action taken I can accept the point and that the thread was dominated by a small group of us and move on.

 

What I initially took issue with was the self-described rant posted by the mod in addition to the pm sent.

 

“You know, locking up a thread shouldn't be the solution to disagreement. It's actually kind of sad if that is the solution. Why not just shrug, agree to disagree, and just end your part in the discussion without saying anything further and walk away. This need to prove another wrong or prove yourself right or keep arguing until others agree with you or so you can have the last word is sad and boring. Yeah, I get it, you passionately believe you are right. So what? The other believes that, too. 

 

But making your arguments personal toward another is not going to fly. And if anyone is wondering ... a few posts and/or comments were removed that would make my rant make sense.”

 

I subsequently responded to the post and pointed out the hypocrisy. The post was full of the same condescension and attacking dialogue that we were penalized for. If I, or another poster, were to call the opinions of others in a forum sad and boring it would most certainly be taken as a personal attack. For pointing out that fact I was awarded another 2 warning points by another mod, my post was deleted, and I was banned from posting content for 24 hours. The second mod was the one that pointed me here. We exchanged a series of messages. I expressed that I felt bounds had been overstepped by the initial moderator post and that issuing 2 extra warning points for pointing that out seemed excessive. I was told that I was awarded more points because I don’t have the right to vent publicly about other posters or moderators. I was also told that if I had pm’ed the mod directly about the inappropriate post there would have been no need assigned the extra points.

 

My response was to again point to exactly how the initial mod post violated the policy that was just stated to me. I also made the point that using the same logic; had we (the handful of posters involved) been pm’ed by the original mod there would have been no need for the rant either. Eventually the original mod post was amended, and allowed to stand as it was no longer deemed offensive. I propositioned that if the post was edited then my claim obviously carried merit. I also made the case that it had to have bearing on the excess points I was awarded, but apparently not. I feel that the application of posting policy in this matter was both heavy handed and extremely uneven. It feels very much like a standard has been created where mods aren’t held to the same scrutiny that regular posters are.

Our posts are deleted, we’re issued warning points for getting personal, then we’re flamed by mod rant that was every bit what we were critiqued over. I post and point out the hypocrisy; my post is deleted, I’m awarded more points, and I’m banned from content creation. Meanwhile, only after a back and forth via messages with the second mod, is the original post slightly amended. It was then allowed to stand. It was a very vexing handling to say the least. Posting policy was often cited to me, which leads me to believe it is very important to those who moderate on this site. Assuming that is case, I can’t understand how it is deemed acceptable for those policies to only apply in one direction. When my content is removed, I’m awarded warning points, and I’m banned from creation while the other party is allowed to simply alter their original post and this is considered justifiable I’m not sure how to view it as anything other than inconsistent.

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#2 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 02 January 2017 - 07:43 PM

Moderators are human beings. They sometimes post things they later regret and I'm no exception.

But moderators toe the line to the best of their ability and succeed in doing so 99% of the time.

What moderators *don't* do is derail a thread, commit multiple infractions in a matter of days, and ignore other moderator scoldings.

It's not a one way street because moderators self-police more than any other posters on this forum. Sure, sometimes they wander over the line on accident but so does everybody (and most posters don't get warnings for wandering over the line once).
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#3 drjim

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Posted 02 January 2017 - 07:52 PM

The mods do a great job, but if you post enough you'll probably get a point a two you don't deserve. Makes up for all the other times they let things slide.

If you want a clarification and send a respectful message more power to you. Otherwise my advice is "thank you sir/madam, can I have another..."
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#4 Craig Arko

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Posted 02 January 2017 - 07:59 PM

And if all else fails, put the irritants on ignore. It's not perfect, but neither was the road to civilization.
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#5 USAFChief

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Posted 02 January 2017 - 08:23 PM

First, thanks for the feedback. Sincerely. in the proper forum.

Second, and this is important, We have a pretty strong distaste for discussing moderator actions in-thread, which was a factor in this case. Bring it here. Or send a PM...we will all respond when we get time. And to the best of my knowledge nobody has ever gotten a point from a PM, even though, lemme tell ya, there have been a few doozies.

As noted above, we are not professionals and make mistakes. Just please point them out to us without muddying up other threads.

If I may also add one other point...while the moderators are all individuals with varying opinions, we discuss most actions before they are taken, particularly when multiple points are involved, so rest assured no moderator acts unilaterally very often. And didnt in this case.

Edit: and yet another point: also keep in mind you only know what actions were taken against you...not what actions may have been taken against others.

Edited by twinsnorth49: One more point....Get off my lawn!!!!
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#6 twinsnorth49

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Posted 02 January 2017 - 09:00 PM

To add a couple of things, mods do police themselves and will edit or delete posts by fellow mods. Editing of posts is relatively common, if a post is for the most part on point but happens to include something disrespectful or about another poster, then we'll edit the bad part out and leave the rest.

In thread warnings are really just a preferred way to get things back on track without having to hand out points, which we really would rather not do.

Edited by USAFChief: don't EVER edit my posts.
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#7 snepp

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Posted 02 January 2017 - 09:04 PM

 

In thread warnings are really just a preferred way to get things back on track without having to hand out points, which we really would rather not do.

 

Expanding a bit, once an in-thread warning is given, subsequent postings are typically given far less latitude where it comes to deletions and/or infractions.

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#8 twinsnorth49

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Posted 02 January 2017 - 09:11 PM

Expanding a bit, once an in-thread warning is given, subsequent postings are typically given far less latitude where it comes to deletions and/or infractions.


Particularly if subsequent postings want to discuss the warning.
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#9 KirbyDome89

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Posted 02 January 2017 - 10:03 PM

 

Moderators are human beings. They sometimes post things they later regret and I'm no exception.

But moderators toe the line to the best of their ability and succeed in doing so 99% of the time.

What moderators *don't* do is derail a thread, commit multiple infractions in a matter of days, and ignore other moderator scoldings.

It's not a one way street because moderators self-police more than any other posters on this forum. Sure, sometimes they wander over the line on accident but so does everybody (and most posters don't get warnings for wandering over the line once).

I understand the human aspect. I'm not personally angry at any of the mods or even remotely offended by anything that was said. 

 

I already owned the back and forth earlier in that thread. Regardless, I don't think it explains or sanctions the mod post and what transpired after. 

 

I'm certain lots of posters have to restrain from posting how they really feel or think, I wouldn't say that is unique to mods. If mods are allowed to break posting policy then simply make alterations to their post and allow it stand while others have their content deleted and are banned from content creation that is heavily favoring one side. 


#10 KirbyDome89

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Posted 02 January 2017 - 10:17 PM

 

First, thanks for the feedback. Sincerely. in the proper forum.

Second, and this is important, We have a pretty strong distaste for discussing moderator actions in-thread, which was a factor in this case. Bring it here. Or send a PM...we will all respond when we get time. And to the best of my knowledge nobody has ever gotten a point from a PM, even though, lemme tell ya, there have been a few doozies.

As noted above, we are not professionals and make mistakes. Just please point them out to us without muddying up other threads.

If I may also add one other point...while the moderators are all individuals with varying opinions, we discuss most actions before they are taken, particularly when multiple points are involved, so rest assured no moderator acts unilaterally very often. And didnt in this case.

Edit: and yet another point: also keep in mind you only know what actions were taken against you...not what actions may have been taken against others.

No prob. In fairness I wasn't aware this forum was even "a thing," until it was brought to my attention. 

 

I get it, people make mistakes. My response to the mod warning was more about my distaste for the way we were called out in the public forum. 

 

Ha, I'm not sure how to take the fact that it wasn't unilateral action that was taken. In most cases I would say thats great. In this case I'm hoping it was more of a 51/49 split. 

 

Thats true. Really the only concern I had was regarding myself (selfish) I was only using the "we," pronoun because the original thread involved a handful of us posting. 


#11 KirbyDome89

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Posted 02 January 2017 - 10:34 PM

 

Expanding a bit, once an in-thread warning is given, subsequent postings are typically given far less latitude where it comes to deletions and/or infractions.

Hear ya. It wasn't so much the fact that action was taken, rather it was the severity and lopsided nature of said action that raised concern. 


#12 KirbyDome89

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Posted 02 January 2017 - 10:36 PM

 

The mods do a great job, but if you post enough you'll probably get a point a two you don't deserve. Makes up for all the other times they let things slide.

If you want a clarification and send a respectful message more power to you. Otherwise my advice is "thank you sir/madam, can I have another..."

Ha, the first I considered a badge of honor. 

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#13 twinsnorth49

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Posted 02 January 2017 - 10:44 PM

 

To add a couple of things, mods do police themselves and will edit or delete posts by fellow mods. Editing of posts is relatively common, if a post is for the most part on point but happens to include something disrespectful or about another poster, then we'll edit the bad part out and leave the rest.

In thread warnings are really just a preferred way to get things back on track without having to hand out points, which we really would rather not do.

Edited by USAFChief: don't EVER edit my posts.

No worries, that would require me to read them first.

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#14 twinsnorth49

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Posted 02 January 2017 - 11:04 PM

 

I understand the human aspect. I'm not personally angry at any of the mods or even remotely offended by anything that was said. 

 

I already owned the back and forth earlier in that thread. Regardless, I don't think it explains or sanctions the mod post and what transpired after. 

 

I'm certain lots of posters have to restrain from posting how they really feel or think, I wouldn't say that is unique to mods. If mods are allowed to break posting policy then simply make alterations to their post and allow it stand while others have their content deleted and are banned from content creation that is heavily favoring one side. 

Here's the thing though, a moderator had previously issued a polite warning to tone down the personal bickering in the thread, that was ignored. The second mod posted a more pointed warning, which after editing a single sentence was an appropriate warning. There was nothing of value in the subsequent posts that were deleted, therefore they were deleted.

 

There is no favouring  of one side, the warning was merited and mods are given the latitude to give them. I'm not sure what the problem was with the warning once it had been  edited. 

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#15 ChiTownTwinsFan

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Posted 02 January 2017 - 11:33 PM

Here's the thing though, a moderator had previously issued a polite warning to tone down the personal bickering in the thread, that was ignored. The second mod posted a more pointed warning, which after editing a single sentence was an appropriate warning. There was nothing of value in the subsequent posts that were deleted, therefore they were deleted.
 
There is no favouring  of one side, the warning was merited and mods are given the latitude to give them. I'm not sure what the problem was with the warning once it had been  edited.


Actually, that in thread warning by me came as a response to some posts that were deleted, one of which included a very disrespectful comment by KirbyDome toward another poster, for which a warning point was issued. That warning point may have been just a PM had another moderator not already issued an in thread warning, that was ignored, as TN points out.
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#16 KirbyDome89

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Posted 02 January 2017 - 11:40 PM

 

Here's the thing though, a moderator had previously issued a polite warning to tone down the personal bickering in the thread, that was ignored. The second mod posted a more pointed warning, which after editing a single sentence was an appropriate warning. There was nothing of value in the subsequent posts that were deleted, therefore they were deleted.

 

There is no favouring  of one side, the warning was merited and mods are given the latitude to give them. I'm not sure what the problem was with the warning once it had been  edited. 

The second mod post came occurred in conjunction with the 1st warning point. I'm not fighting that. The issue I have is that the second mod post contained quite obviously the same tone and language of the posts that were removed and issued points. For pointing that out I received another 2 points and was banned from content creation. The mod post was edited and then allowed to stand. 

 

If a mod can break posting policy yet simply edit the original and allow their post to stand while regular posters are issued 2 points and banned from content creation for breaking posting policy I take issue with the standard that is being set. 


#17 KirbyDome89

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Posted 02 January 2017 - 11:50 PM

 

Actually, that in thread warning by me came as a response to some posts that were deleted, one of which included a very disrespectful comment by KirbyDome toward another poster, for which a warning point was issued. That warning point may have been just a PM had another moderator not already issued an in thread warning, that was ignored, as TN points out.

Thats funny because I would say the post to which I replied was equally "disrespectful," yet it was allowed to stand and no action was taken until I responded to it. If you want to pm we can go over exactly how I felt that thread was going, but this is starting down a tangential path. 

 

I've already pointed out what I see as the biggest issue with the way the situation unfolded. 


#18 twinsnorth49

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Posted 03 January 2017 - 12:05 AM

The second mod post came occurred in conjunction with the 1st warning point. I'm not fighting that. The issue I have is that the second mod post contained quite obviously the same tone and language of the posts that were removed and issued points. For pointing that out I received another 2 points and was banned from content creation. The mod post was edited and then allowed to stand.

If a mod can break posting policy yet simply edit the original and allow their post to stand while regular posters are issued 2 points and banned from content creation for breaking posting policy I take issue with the standard that is being set.


The response to the mod breaking posting policy was to edit the post, that's policing. As I said,the rest of the post in question was fine and should have been allowed to stand, it was a warning to stop derailing the thread, which mods have discretion to use.

Your subsequent posts were directed at another poster and had nothing to do with the topic, thus deleted. Points were given for ignoring the warnings and discussing mod action in thread. Both of which violate our posting policy.
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#19 KirbyDome89

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Posted 03 January 2017 - 12:24 AM

 

The response to the mod breaking posting policy was to edit the post, that's policing. As I said,the rest of the post in question was fine and should have been allowed to stand, it was a warning to stop derailing the thread, which mods have discretion to use.

Your subsequent posts were directed at another poster and had nothing to do with the topic, thus deleted. Points were given for ignoring the warnings and discussing mod action in thread. Both of which violate our posting policy.

It was a self proclaimed rant directed towards a few of us with a warning thrown in at the end.

 

My response to another poster was removed because of one line. The mod post was edited because only one line is deemed offensive.

 

One policy violation by me results in 2 warning points, a content creation ban, and entire content deletion. The other policy violation by a mod results in a sentence being edited. Again, that seems very inconsistent. 


#20 twinsnorth49

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Posted 03 January 2017 - 12:50 AM

It was a self proclaimed rant directed towards a few of us with a warning thrown in at the end.

My response to another poster was removed because of one line. The mod post was edited because only one line is deemed offensive.

One policy violation by me results in 2 warning points, a content creation ban, and entire content deletion. The other policy violation by a mod results in a sentence being edited. Again, that seems very inconsistent.


I believe she was using the word "rant" euphemistically, the post was a warning in response to you and another poster continuing to derail a thread with off topic bickering and ultimately posts directed at one another. Something a different mod had previously warned about, which you ignored.

Your deleted post had nothing to do with Chris Sale and was ridiculously off topic at that point, it deserved deletion.

The fact that you insist on the mod post being a policy violation is a bit absurd. Personally I would have deleted a lot more posts in that thread but I respect my fellow mod for trying to give it one last shot to get you and others to stick to the topic.

Again, your warning points were for questiong mod action in thread after repeatedly derailing a thread. The content creation ban is automatic with the points.
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