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Sale to the Red Sox

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#21 Willihammer

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 03:19 PM

 

so they should have kept him, and not made the playoffs again? Seems like a bad strategy to me. At some point, you realize you aren't good, and trade your stars to rebuild (I know as a Twins' fan, that seems odd.......).

 

So, getting the number 1 prospect in the game, that's not a good start on the rebuild? Not sure I understand, and whether you like it or not, he's pretty much number 1 or 2 or 4....not 20, not 100....

Its not actually a forgone conclusion that they will be bad next year or the year after that (or 2019). They finished with 78 wins last year.

 

I'm curious. At what point do you think teams should launch into rebuild?

Well, there's that.

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#22 Monkeypaws

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 03:22 PM

 

not a good trade for the twins. in 107.1 total innings against sale, they scored at an e.r.a. clip of 4.28. that's higher than league average in every season since sale's debut in 2010.

 

Agree - plus, I enjoyed watching the White Sox resist the rebuild, sign past their prime free-agents, and have no prospects. This sets a dangerous precedent.

 

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#23 Mike Sixel

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 03:27 PM

 

Its not actually a forgone conclusion that they will be bad next year or the year after that (or 2019). They finished with 78 wins last year.

 

I'm curious. At what point do you think teams should launch into rebuild?

 

That's very context dependent.....how old is the team, how do the minors look, are you close to your payroll cap, how does the rest of your division look?

 

On the last, the AL Central is terrible outside CLE, so that says keep trying.

But, I think the rest of it screams rebuild to me.

 

They don't have a ton of minor league stuff, and they are VERY top heavy, a few stars, and some terrible players. IF there were any FAs this year, and IF they had money, and IF they could go from terrible to average in a few spots, it might work. But, they aren't competing for a WC probably, not with TX, Hou, NYY, TOR, and BOS all looking good again next year....and the year after.

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#24 spycake

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 05:02 PM

I heard Frazier might be on the move. Any rumblings about Quintana, Abreu, Eaton? Or do the White Sox think they can still get back into contention without Sale, sorta like the 2008 Twins after dealing Johan?

#25 kab21

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 05:18 PM

There is no doubt that the Red Sox paid a huge amount for Sale but this is Dombrowski doing what he does best. He acquires elite players in these deals and despite continual warnings of depleted farm systems and impending crash due to old and aging players his teams are continually competitive and winning 90+ games/season and division crowns.

Just to put this into perspective - We had these same discussions about Dombrowski and the Tigers back when BYTO started in 2006. Since then the Tigers have had 2 losing seasons and have been one of the top teams over that time frame. Their impending doom never happened.

 

If you are going to make these deals then get elite guys like Sale. btw - David Price had a great year unless of course you are only capable of evaluating a SP by ERA.

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Is 2016 2017 2018 the year that a good pitching prospect is truly blocked by 5 good pitchers in the starting rotation? 

Offseason (noun) - a time to propose trades assuming opposing GM's can't do the same basic analysis


#26 Mike Sixel

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 05:18 PM

Quintana is around for 4 more years, me? I keep him, and see what I have this year in the players I just got and others......four years is a long time. That said, if you can get De Leon and Bellinger for him, plus 1 lottery ticket, I seriosly consdier it. You'd have 1b/RF and 3B/CF/LF locked up in Bellinger and Moncada (some think he should be a CF and Bellinger could play a corner OF spot), and would have De Leon (a three maybe) and a few SP prospects in the minors.....

 

I probably deal Abreu, if he has value, at this point. 

 

Eaton is around for 3 years......I probably deal him, if I can get a legit SP prospect and a flyer for him.

 

Put Moncada in CF, Bellinger in RF or LF (or even 1B), put De Leon at SP and then see what else you have  from Abreu and Eaton.....

Have. Not of. Have a great day.

#27 Mike Sixel

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 05:20 PM

Heck, looking at what I just typed, if you like Moncada more than Buxton, and Bellinger and Sano are equal, and De Leon = Berrios.....they look a lot like the Twins.....which might be good or bad...

Have. Not of. Have a great day.

#28 KirbyDome89

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 06:52 PM

 

There is no doubt that the Red Sox paid a huge amount for Sale but this is Dombrowski doing what he does best. He acquires elite players in these deals and despite continual warnings of depleted farm systems and impending crash due to old and aging players his teams are continually competitive and winning 90+ games/season and division crowns.

Just to put this into perspective - We had these same discussions about Dombrowski and the Tigers back when BYTO started in 2006. Since then the Tigers have had 2 losing seasons and have been one of the top teams over that time frame. Their impending doom never happened.

 

If you are going to make these deals then get elite guys like Sale. btw - David Price had a great year unless of course you are only capable of evaluating a SP by ERA.

In fairness a large factor prolonging the crash has been the signing of big FAs. Their farm system isn't anything to get excited about but the big league team has been competitive because they can supplement with FAs. It isn't an ineffective strategy, its just more extreme. I think the biggest issue I have with it is that once the core of the team ages, you're stuck with an expensive, mediocre team with no young reinforcements on the way. Thats a long, ugly rebuild, but the Twins went the opposite route and we've seen the results of that so far....

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#29 spycake

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 07:56 PM

Nationals interested in Quintana now:

http://www.mlbtrader...e&post-id=79592

#30 nicksaviking

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 08:16 PM

Its not actually a forgone conclusion that they will be bad next year or the year after that (or 2019). They finished with 78 wins last year.
 
I'm curious. At what point do you think teams should launch into rebuild?


High level: when you keep doing the same thing with mostly the same personnel year after year and it's not working.

#31 Willihammer

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 08:29 PM

 

High level: when you keep doing the same thing with mostly the same personnel year after year and it's not working.

I get that. I think I'll just have to agree to disagree here. Personally I think Robin Ventura was the problem. That dugout looked almost as rudderless as the Twins under Molitor. They fired him first thing this offseason.

 

But the players? Sale, Quintana, Rodon, Robertson, Jones, Duke, Eaton, Laurie, Frazier, Abreu... that's a core. That's what a core looks like IMO.

Edited by Willihammer, 06 December 2016 - 08:30 PM.

Well, there's that.

-Dark Star, RIP


#32 Willihammer

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 08:41 PM

 

Nationals interested in Quintana now:

http://www.mlbtrader...e&post-id=79592

Please Thad/Derek, pick up the phones.

Well, there's that.

-Dark Star, RIP


#33 kab21

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 10:24 PM

 

In fairness a large factor prolonging the crash has been the signing of big FAs. Their farm system isn't anything to get excited about but the big league team has been competitive because they can supplement with FAs. It isn't an ineffective strategy, its just more extreme. I think the biggest issue I have with it is that once the core of the team ages, you're stuck with an expensive, mediocre team with no young reinforcements on the way. Thats a long, ugly rebuild, but the Twins went the opposite route and we've seen the results of that so far....

In fairness this plan has worked despite people being concerned about an expensive, mediocre team with a poor farm system for over a decade. 

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Is 2016 2017 2018 the year that a good pitching prospect is truly blocked by 5 good pitchers in the starting rotation? 

Offseason (noun) - a time to propose trades assuming opposing GM's can't do the same basic analysis


#34 KirbyDome89

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 10:55 PM

 

In fairness this plan has worked despite people being concerned about an expensive, mediocre team with a poor farm system for over a decade. 

So you didn't read the post then huh....


#35 Hosken Bombo Disco

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 11:02 PM

Chris Sale to the Red Sox

He gone

/hawk
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#36 biggentleben

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 11:22 PM

#1 prospect in the game, another guy who will fairly easily be top 50 (and is widely regarded as able to start after showing well doing just that this season), one of the biggest upside teenagers this side of Victor Robles, and a power arm who finally showed a second pitch this year. The Red Sox's #1, #4, and #9 on my top ten list, and Diaz was in strong consideration for the list as well.

 

The White Sox pulled the Shelby Miller of last year. Go into the evening with a deal "close" with one team, then the baseball world wakes up the next day to a bigger deal with another team who was willing to overpay to ensure they got the guy.

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#37 jimmer

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Posted 07 December 2016 - 08:22 AM

Dave Cameron nailed this trade in July. Moncada, Kopech,and some sweeteners.

#38 kab21

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Posted 07 December 2016 - 08:37 AM

 

So you didn't read the post then huh....

Yes, I did read it. Signing FA's was always part of Dombrowski's plan in Detroit and it will be part of the Red Sox plan. And yet you keep talking about this inevitable collapse that never happened in Detroit despite it being predicted for almost a decade. If the Red Sox are able to go a decade plus before this collapse that you are predicting then Dombrowski will be considered a great GM.

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Is 2016 2017 2018 the year that a good pitching prospect is truly blocked by 5 good pitchers in the starting rotation? 

Offseason (noun) - a time to propose trades assuming opposing GM's can't do the same basic analysis


#39 TheLeviathan

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Posted 07 December 2016 - 08:49 AM

We were prognosticating the demise of Detroit on BYTO for about 5 years.  And that was about five years ago.  

 

You can't just look at a farm system and say "Whelp, they're done for in a few years".  Smart GMs find ways to restock, especially when they have the financial resources to do so.  Dombrowski has always done that.

 

Not having a WS title for it just shows bad luck, not incompetent management on his part.

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#40 USAFChief

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Posted 07 December 2016 - 11:54 AM

I'd take the "win now at the expense of some prospects" route 100 times out of 100.

There are always more minor leaguers.
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