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Goessling: Ryan perplexed by Wimmers' injury

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#21 jokin

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 03:35 PM

I am starting to believe the Twins organization needs an overhaul as well. I still think Terry Ryan and Ron Gardenhire are decent baseball people, but when individuals are in an organization for so long they can get stuck in a rut which is where I think we are now.Personally, I would love to see Terry Francona brought in to manage next year, but I doubt it happens.

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#22 Highabove

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 03:36 PM

Ryan promised accountability up and down the Organization. Medical Staff???????? I'll be waiting.

#23 jokin

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 03:39 PM

This is Ryan's first year back at the helm, last time he was GM they weren't having these issues with the medical team. I agree changes need to be made, but what is he supposed to do? Fire everyone in the middle of the season? I imagine a lot of these doctors have contracts with the team as well, hopefully he evaluates what is wrong during the off-season, fire who needs to be fired and make the changes that need to be made.

But Dave, it isn't like TR just parachuted in from Tasmania, he has been an arm's length consultant to the team during his hiatus from GM. These problems have been well documented, and as a previous poster noted, was addressed by TR as an immediate priority in his first press conference last fall. And then came the Baker debacle...

#24 DaveW

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 03:44 PM

But Dave, it isn't like TR just parachuted in from Tasmania, he has been an arm's length consultant to the team during his hiatus from GM. These problems have been well documented, and as a previous poster noted, was addressed by TR as an immediate priority in his first press conference last fall. And then came the Baker debacle...

Again as it has been mentioned before you don't just go around and fire everyone, it is apparent from his latest statements that changes will be made this off-season.

The Baker "debacle" still puzzles me, multiple doctors didn't think he needed Tommy John and they only found out he needed it once they cut him open. That whole thing was bizzarre.

#25 jokin

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 03:46 PM

Again as it has been mentioned before you don't just go around and fire everyone, it is apparent from his latest statements that changes will be made this off-season. The Baker "debacle" still puzzles me, multiple doctors didn't think he needed Tommy John and they only found out he needed it once they cut him open. That whole thing was bizzarre.

Especially the part about calling Baker "soft"? When a pitcher says he has pain when he pitches, it invaraibly mean there is a problem. Baker pitched with pain for years and was poorly served by management and medical staff, alike. It was a debacle.

#26 Nick Nelson

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 03:55 PM

This is Ryan's first year back at the helm, last time he was GM they weren't having these issues with the medical team. I agree changes need to be made, but what is he supposed to do? Fire everyone in the middle of the season? I imagine a lot of these doctors have contracts with the team as well, hopefully he evaluates what is wrong during the off-season, fire who needs to be fired and make the changes that need to be made.


Right. I suspect that Ryan is working more closely with the medical team this year to try and get an idea of where the problem areas are. The answer isn't simply to fire everyone involved with the operation and try to find replacements. The quotes in the article lead me to believe that TR is getting fed up and that changes will be coming, in some form.

#27 jokin

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 04:04 PM

Right. I suspect that Ryan is working more closely with the medical team this year to try and get an idea of where the problem areas are. The answer isn't simply to fire everyone involved with the operation and try to find replacements. The quotes in the article lead me to believe that TR is getting fed up and that changes will be coming, in some form.


If you read between the lines at his first presser last fall, he was fed up then. What has changed in 9 months? "More fed up?"

I don't recall the simple answer is to fire everyone involved. But this situation is akin to the signing of Nishioka. To this day, no one knows for sure who pushed for him and who greenlighted it to Smith's desk- let alone held anyone accountable for that particular $15M debacle.

#28 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 04:50 PM

But this situation is akin to the signing of Nishioka. To this day, no one knows for sure who pushed for him and who greenlighted it to Smith's desk- let alone held anyone accountable for that particular $15M debacle.


Nor should the fans know who pushed for him. That was Smith's decision and his alone. Part of his job is to take responsibility for poor decisions and shield those who made them. Any reprimanding should happen behind closed doors, not in the court of public perception.

For all we know, that guy/gal has been fired. And that's the way it should be. The public face of the organization takes blame for mis-steps, not the lower echelon rank-and-file.

#29 TheLeviathan

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 05:03 PM

This has gone from maddening, to funny, back to maddening, back to funny. I think at this point I'm burnt out on this garbage.

#30 snepp

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 05:37 PM

This has gone from maddening, to funny, back to maddening, back to funny. I think at this point I'm burnt out on this garbage.


You just need to settle into a nice maddeningly funny frame of mind.

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#31 CDog

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 10:23 PM

Especially the part about calling Baker "soft"? When a pitcher says he has pain when he pitches, it invaraibly mean there is a problem. Baker pitched with pain for years and was poorly served by management and medical staff, alike. It was a debacle.


In at least two other threads there are mountains of quotes and evidence--much of it even supplied from the people who were trying to blame Gardenhire and Ryan--that Baker withheld information and repeatedly and publicly said he was fine. That his velocity would come. That he wasn't the least bit worried about it. That it was tendonitis and that he dealt with it every spring. That he would be able to make his home opener start (one could even take that he implied he was upset that the manager and general manager etc may not let him). So there's that. Again.

#32 DaveW

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 11:08 PM

I can't state it enough. Both Baker and the Twins had every reason in the world to try to do everything but resort to surgery this season. Why? Baker was/is an impending free agent. Baker loses a ton of value by missing the season, and the Twins lose out all value on what was now a short term investment.

#33 jokin

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 11:22 PM

In at least two other threads there are mountains of quotes and evidence--much of it even supplied from the people who were trying to blame Gardenhire and Ryan--that Baker withheld information and repeatedly and publicly said he was fine. That his velocity would come. That he wasn't the least bit worried about it. That it was tendonitis and that he dealt with it every spring. That he would be able to make his home opener start (one could even take that he implied he was upset that the manager and general manager etc may not let him). So there's that. Again.


Because that's what true competitors always say (oft-times against their own long-term best interests). They don't make excuses or equivocate, they just say, "give me the ball". You conveniently ignore the loads of evidence of mishandling by management in this situation. It's up to the professional coaches and medical staff to accurately assess the actual situation of such a valuable team asset as the Team Ace Starter. Every quote all spring from Ryan- up to, and practically including the day that they shut Baker down- was how Baker was just fine, definitely not injured, he just had to get the elbow loose. This was the public face put on, despite Baker's gross lack of velocity and control. In the meantime they were apparently back-channeling some bad-mouthing about Baker to certain scribes about Baker's willingness to tough it out.

Edited by jokin, 01 August 2012 - 11:27 PM.


#34 Mchans24

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 12:24 AM

Actually, those calling for a front office overhaul probably came to that conclusion long before Wimmers needed surgery.

Also... Ryan is going to have to deal with both higher expectations for this club and decreased patience from fans to get the ship righted. We're not in the Metrodome anymore and we can only blame Bill Smith for so long.



Hes got at least four years of blaming Smith.........see Obama! Lol

#35 CDog

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 08:26 AM

You conveniently ignore the loads of evidence of mishandling by management in this situation.


Nope, sorry. That lie isn't going to fly. I read every word about it on 4 different sites at the time it was happening. I read and quoted most of it all over again two or three different times as it's come up on here.

#36 DPJ

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 08:28 AM

Nope, sorry. That lie isn't going to fly. I read every word about it on 4 different sites at the time it was happening. I read and quoted most of it all over again two or three different times as it's come up on here.


WOW...this is just wow.

#37 TheLeviathan

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 08:32 AM

Nope, sorry. That lie isn't going to fly. I read every word about it on 4 different sites at the time it was happening. I read and quoted most of it all over again two or three different times as it's come up on here.


You know what would help this truly insane position you hold? If you just acknowledged that the way they handled it with the media compared to Pavano was wrong. Then, at least on some level, you'd warrant credibility on this.

#38 CDog

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 08:49 AM

You know what would help this truly insane position you hold? If you just acknowledged that the way they handled it with the media compared to Pavano was wrong. Then, at least on some level, you'd warrant credibility on this.


I would be willing to bet that you couldn't say what position I hold on this, because you've repeatedly misrepresented it, put your own spin on it, and jumped to conclusions that aren't supported by what I've actually said on it. HEY...that's just like the original situation in question! That's kinda interesting.

#39 TheLeviathan

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 08:54 AM

I would be willing to bet that you couldn't say what position I hold on this, because you've repeatedly misrepresented it, put your own spin on it, and jumped to conclusions that aren't supported by what I've actually said on it. HEY...that's just like the original situation in question! That's kinda interesting.


You take issue everytime it's suggested that the Twins handled this situation poorly. If you don't care to articulate your position, don't whine when people have to make assumptions.

This is now the third time I've asked you to explain your position. By all means - because what you convey is pure insanity in defending a mishandled situation.

#40 CDog

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 09:14 AM

You take issue everytime it's suggested that the Twins handled this situation poorly. If you don't care to articulate your position, don't whine when people have to make assumptions.

This is now the third time I've asked you to explain your position. By all means - because what you convey is pure insanity in defending a mishandled situation.


The first sentence is just not true. I take issue every time someone tries to exaggerate, lie, or misrepresent what the situation was or how it was handled. I've articulated very clearly in other topics on this subject and in other threads and conversations where it's more directly on topic that if you (general you) look at facts, quotes, situations and come to a conclusion that something was done poorly or mishandled then that's your opinion and that is all it is. If you make up BS, add your own "facts" to the situation, or misrepresent what happened to try and pass off your opinion...well that's garbage and makes you (general you) a (br)ass (b)owl.

The boiled down version of what happened (again, because I "have to" I guess): Baker kept going out and throwing around 10 mph slower than he's normally been capable. He kept saying he was fine over and over (we later found he was not) and that he wasn't remotely concerned about his velocity returning. Gardnhire and Ryan eventually got fed up and said if he's fine, then he needs to show it. That's my "position." I don't know if I've ever stated an opinion on it, to be honest. I'm not sure it matters. If you'd like it, here it is: Baker overestimated himself and probably believed he would get healthy. Athletes are often ridiculously self-delusional in that way. And because of that he didn't really think he was "lying" to the trainers, etc, but he was. Gardenhire and Ryan probably should have expressed their thoughts to the media more carefully. Frustration leads to things coming out wrong or seeming like they're said with different intent than they are. The end.