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#1 jorgenswest

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 04:53 PM

Twins, Astros and Cubs... three of the weakest teams the last two years. While the Cubs and Astros dismantle, the Twins have retained their better assets for 2103. With the dismantle the Cubs and Astros stock farm systems with hopes for the long term, the Twins moves (or lack) show they are planning to contend (stronger than compete) in 2013. Why else retain Willingham who will almost certainly decline by 2014? Why else sign Doumit and slow the development of Parmelee and Hermann? Doumit is likely the better player next year but I doubt beyond. Why else demand so much for Span? Why else retain Perkins and Burton when relievers were in some demand? Why else retain Morneau instead of buying some prospects in a Wandy Rodriguez type deal? Why else accept players in return for Liriano that can have a role on a major league team next year? Time will tell which direction was correct. In 2014, there might be excitement in Chicago and Houston while the Twins have an aging roster playing at best .500 ball. The only way this works is if the Twins plan to contend next year. For this to work, they must invest in two starting pitchers. Not a Marquis decline phase investment but spend twice that and get a Maholm type. Then spend more and get a lead pitcher. Will two pitchers be enough to contend? If not, they have taken the wrong direction. They must have decided they could not risk Liriano taking the qualifying offer. They must not have projected Liriano as their lead pitcher. Having watched him the last two years it is hard to argue the point. If the Twins don't find those starters in the winter, then they will continue the cycle of mediocrity. They will be quickly an aging team. They would have been better off long term by selling assets. Is this the right direction for this team? Should they have sold off their 2013 assets towards building a young and growing team?

#2 twinswon1991

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 05:08 PM

The Cubs and Stros have solid plans. The Twins have no direction, it appears they are content being stuck in the middle. Heck even competing in the AL Central is somewhat worthless, as the Twins have went ZERO for the playoffs in all but one trip under Gardy. The only way to build a championship team when you don't have unlimited resources is to build a strong system and endure some short term growing pains. It appears TR is not willing to endure the short term pain to build the system. It doesn't really matter what he could've obtained for Willy, Span, Morney, etc the FACT is that these guys will not be part of the next championship calibur team so they should be cashed in for some long-term assets. I hope these hitters have some value this winter but all will be one year older and have checkered injury histories so it is possible that NONE of them have any value other than in a salary dump type trade. I give TR and F- UNLESS the Polads forced him to keep these vets just to try to keep some butts in the seats. If that is the case, the Polads might as well fire TR and act as the GM themselves.

#3 SpiritofVodkaDave

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 05:14 PM

possible that NONE of them have any value other than in a salary dump type trade.


sigh

#4 jlovren

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 05:14 PM

The Cubs and Stros have solid plans. .





What plans might they be? The cubs haven't won ever and the stros haven't won in 30 years.

#5 jlovren

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 05:14 PM

That was supposed to say forever

#6 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 05:20 PM

It doesn't really matter what he could've obtained for Willy, Span, Morney, etc the FACT is that these guys will not be part of the next championship calibur team so they should be cashed in for some long-term assets.


You're right. As Twins fans, we should get behind this winning philosophy. I mean, it's not as if the Twins get to keep Span and Willingham for next season, trade them this offseason, or do any number of things to maximize their value.

They need to be moved and they need to be moved now. The Twins can't afford to wait until the market is stronger for those two players. We need that bag of balls and we need that old pitching machine from the Rangers. We need a new bullpen catcher. We need to do whatever we can to ship these players out of town right now.

Your schtick is tired. Seriously. Just stop. If you don't have something of substance to post, just don't ****ing post anything.

My patience with this herpderp posting has long since evaporated. You're frustrated. We get it. Most of us are frustrated, too. Now stop posting the same goddamned opinion over and over and over again.

#7 Bark's Lounge

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 05:21 PM

None of this matters - We'll all be dead in 2103. Unless...

#8 Highabove

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 05:34 PM

None of this matters - We'll all be dead in 2103. Unless...


The Mayan Calender ends on December 21. Where history on the 22nd

There will still be time to get the Winter Meetings in on December 3rd


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#9 boney

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 05:37 PM

Obviously starting pitching is the most glaring weakness for the org. The problem with starting pitching is that nobody wants to give it or the potential of it up in a trade. What makes it worse for the org. is that they've done a poor job of drafting and developing it and they don't spend money on it. I know that Terry Ryan has been successful with big trades-Knoblauch and Pierzynski, and smaller trades-getting guys like Lohse,Ortiz,Mayes and Bartlett and hopefully he can prove it again this coming off-season but what troubles me is that this has been one of the 3 worst teams in the league for the last year and a half and (correct me if I miss someone) Liriano's the only guy that's been traded away. Since the Twins like to re-arrange chairs much more than actually getting rid of anyone it seems that our only hope is that the art of the deal hasn't passed Terry Ryan by. This front office has a lot to prove this coming off-season. Here's to hope.

#10 Bark's Lounge

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 05:38 PM

The Mayan Calender ends on December 21. Where history on the 22nd

There will still be time to get the Winter Meetings in on December 3rd


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Nice... very nice.:)

#11 drjim

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 06:00 PM

Let's not act like Houston or the Cubs got that great of prospects, even though the Cubs had the better chip in Dempster. Houston is going to be a brutal team for at least the next three years, possibly longer. They didn't really have a choice, but they better hope everything goes right or it could be multiple cycles. Twins have a better major league team and a better farm system than both of these teams, it is not necessarily a great comparison.
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#12 Top Gun

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 06:12 PM

Directions' The Twins have no direction, on the best day of trading, other teams finds trades, the twins fall asleep and are afriad to answer the phones. Whats new with that? twins

#13 JB_Iowa

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 06:19 PM

The Twins plan isn't necessarily to contend in 2013. It is to be good enough -- or make enough moves even if that is retaining people -- to sell season tickets and put butts in the stands (and buying food, beer and merchandise). That is the bottom line -- creating enough belief that you will put a respectable product on the field so that people buy tickets AND trying to be good enough that you can claim you are in the race until mid-summer to keep people coming to TF AND doing it as cheaply as possible.

#14 rickyhawaii

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 06:32 PM

I liked how the Royals got two good pitching prospects while cashing in on Broxton which the Twins should have done with Burton. JC Sulbaran was a good get and the Twins probably could have gotten him and one of their other good pitching prospects while trying to package Span and Burton. The A's are another team that I like what they have been doing and how they replenish their system time and time again. Two years in a row now the Twins sat idle. If Ryan goes.. I would hope they consider getting Beane's underling David Forst a call.

#15 snepp

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 06:33 PM

Broxton is a "proven" "closer."

#16 biggentleben

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 07:13 PM

Let's not act like Houston or the Cubs got that great of prospects, even though the Cubs had the better chip in Dempster.

Houston is going to be a brutal team for at least the next three years, possibly longer. They didn't really have a choice, but they better hope everything goes right or it could be multiple cycles.

Twins have a better major league team and a better farm system than both of these teams, it is not necessarily a great comparison.


Houston has a much lesser MLB squad, but the prospects they acquired this year have drastically impacted their system. They have top end like Singleton, more predictable future MLB bench/replacement guys like Dominguez, and a ton of depth of guys who have very solid top ends if they can get even 1/2 to reach it. I think you might be surprised how many prospectors would rate the Astros above the Twins in systems now.
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#17 mikeee

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 07:17 PM

I liked how the Royals got two good pitching prospects while cashing in on Broxton which the Twins should have done with Burton. JC Sulbaran was a good get and the Twins probably could have gotten him and one of their other good pitching prospects while trying to package Span and Burton. The A's are another team that I like what they have been doing and how they replenish their system time and time again. Two years in a row now the Twins sat idle. If Ryan goes.. I would hope they consider getting Beane's underling David Forst a call.


I don't think the Royals are a good example.
They are in a perpetually rebuilding mode.
They have been bad year, after year, after year...

#18 Badsmerf

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 07:21 PM

I don't have a problem not moving guys. I'm also of the opinion that if they sign Grienke they will be right in the mix next season and beyond. I doubt it happens, but they could even sign Grienke and Liriano. There will be enough money, and with Grienke, Frankie, Gibson, Diamond, Hendriks with Baker signed cheap... that is a playoff rotation. Add some offense with the prospects coming up and Morneau fully healthy and the Twins could win a lot of games. I'm not sure if JR feels the same way (that this team could compete with some legit FA pitchers), but keeping your best chips when you don't get the offers you want is what good GM's do. If they can't sign some pitching then they have the opportunity to trade.

#19 mbents

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 07:55 PM

I don't have a problem not moving guys. I'm also of the opinion that if they sign Grienke they will be right in the mix next season and beyond. I doubt it happens, but they could even sign Grienke and Liriano. There will be enough money, and with Grienke, Frankie, Gibson, Diamond, Hendriks with Baker signed cheap... that is a playoff rotation. Add some offense with the prospects coming up and Morneau fully healthy and the Twins could win a lot of games. I'm not sure if JR feels the same way (that this team could compete with some legit FA pitchers), but keeping your best chips when you don't get the offers you want is what good GM's do. If they can't sign some pitching then they have the opportunity to trade.


I agree that signing Greinke and one more good starting pitcher (hopefully not Liriano - we've been down that road) would get the Twins back in contention. I think re-signing Doumit indicates that TR thinks the Twins should be contending next year. I'm curious to see what he does in the offseason to address the starting pitcher needs. It's nice to dream about having Greinke at the top of the rotation, but I think the odds of it actually happening are pretty slim.

#20 Badsmerf

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 08:52 PM

Depends. Where is your money better spent? I say its better spent on elite starting pitching. Although, Grienke has not been elite for a while, he has still been very good. This type of ballpark would fare well for him too. It would just have to be for the right price.

#21 chopper0080

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 09:19 PM

I imagine the Twins will shop Span, Revere and Willingham this offseason, with Span being the most likely to be traded in a move to get some pitching. Trading team controlled players in the offseason will generally net you a better return because you have more teams to find a good match with. Here is my brief take on the Twins in 2013 1-I think the lineup is good enough to compete if Mauer, Morneau and Willingham come to an equilibrium where everyone produces career average stats, and Plouffe keeps hitting. The rest will take care of itself in my opinion. 2-The bullpen is ok to good. I like Burton and Perkins in the 7th and 8th innings better than I do in the 9th in terms of their role. We lack a true, nasty closer, but I am not sure this is something we have in the farm system or we can afford to spend for in free agency. 3-Our starting pitching is really bad. I like Diamond, Deduno, Hendriks, Gibson, and De Vries battling for the 3-5 spots as long as the Twins can put some defense on the field behind them. As far as the other two spots, ugh. I don't see us spending the money needed to get two front line guys, and am not sure their will be another way to acquire what we need here. Honestly, other than our starting pitchers, we have a playoff caliber roster, but I just don;t see the TWins making the necessary moves to shore up the starting 5 as needed.

#22 J-Dog Dungan

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 09:56 PM

I imagine the Twins will shop Span, Revere and Willingham this offseason, with Span being the most likely to be traded in a move to get some pitching. Trading team controlled players in the offseason will generally net you a better return because you have more teams to find a good match with.

Here is my brief take on the Twins in 2013

1-I think the lineup is good enough to compete if Mauer, Morneau and Willingham come to an equilibrium where everyone produces career average stats, and Plouffe keeps hitting. The rest will take care of itself in my opinion.

2-The bullpen is ok to good. I like Burton and Perkins in the 7th and 8th innings better than I do in the 9th in terms of their role. We lack a true, nasty closer, but I am not sure this is something we have in the farm system or we can afford to spend for in free agency.

3-Our starting pitching is really bad. I like Diamond, Deduno, Hendriks, Gibson, and De Vries battling for the 3-5 spots as long as the Twins can put some defense on the field behind them. As far as the other two spots, ugh. I don't see us spending the money needed to get two front line guys, and am not sure their will be another way to acquire what we need here.

Honestly, other than our starting pitchers, we have a playoff caliber roster, but I just don;t see the TWins making the necessary moves to shore up the starting 5 as needed.


This is more or less my opinion. Not only do they need at least one if not two above-average SP's somehow, it also wouldn't hurt the Twins to get a reliever or three that are more effective than the guys they currently have (guys like Gray and Maloney)