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Law: "The White Sox got a steal in Liriano"

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#1 Thrylos

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 11:21 AM

The whole article is here and requires subscription, but here is what he has to say about the deal:

The Chicago White Sox got a steal in Francisco Liriano by agreeing to pay his salary, sending the Twins two fringe prospects in utility infielder Eduardo Escobar and middle reliever Pedro Hernandez.


So the only people who like the deal so far are people who think Ryan can do no wrong...
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#2 70charger

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 11:23 AM

So the only people who like the deal so far are people who think Ryan can do no wrong...


Because Law said it? Wow. Good reasoning.

#3 DPJ

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 11:23 AM

Keith Law hates the insert your favorite team, ofcourse he would say that.

#4 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 11:24 AM

So the only people who like the deal so far are people who think Ryan can do no wrong...


There are people who like the deal? Where? I haven't seen any.

I've seen a lot of "mehs" and "damn, that's all they could get?" but very few statements of positivity about the trade.

#5 jokin

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 11:28 AM

There are people who like the deal? Where? I haven't seen any.

I've seen a lot of "mehs" and "damn, that's all they could get?" but very few statements of positivity about the trade.


C'mon RP, while there haven't been necessarily positive things said, the excuse factory is working overtime.

#6 gunnarthor

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 11:29 AM

Ah yes, the kool aid people. -sigh- You know, for the number of factual mistakes you post, you probably should take a break for a while. Sickels on the trade- "This may not seem like a great haul for Liriano, but given his very erratic track record, this package or something like it is probably the best the Twins could hope for." Baseball America: "A free agent after the season, Liriano's wildly-fluctuating results made it unlikely that the Twins would have made him the qualifying contract offer necessary to receive draft pick compensation. So while neither Hernandez nor Escobar project to be future impact players, each possesses at least one plus tool and can help the Twins in their organizational rebuild. That's certainly better than nothing." Liriano has the ability to rip off 7 good starts out of his next ten. It's a worth while gamble and a couple C prospects aren't that high of a price to make if you're wrong. That's why the trade is good from the White Sox side. If he implodes, they don't have any future obligation to him. I'm pretty sure that's Klaw's point. He isn't saying the Twins should've gotten more for Liriano, he's suggesting that it's a worthy gamble by Chicago.

#7 twinswon1991

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 11:29 AM

I wish Terry Ryan in my fantasy league. It is always nice having the clueless manager you can fleece at any time. I'm sure that is how other MLB execs view TR.

#8 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 11:33 AM

C'mon RP, while there haven't been necessarily positive things said, the excuse factory is working overtime.


You mean excuses like "Liriano hasn't been very good for a very long time and that marginalized his value?"

No team in their right mind was going to loot the farm for a player like Francisco. The only thing I didn't understand about the trade was why JR accepted that deal when Francisco could have made another start. Of course, his value could have dropped even lower after that start so there's a gamble there, too.

This was just a crappy situation. I don't fault JR for not bringing home the farm when there were better pitching options out there to be had. I only question whether he should have waited two days and I doubt that would have made much of a difference overall.

#9 jokin

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 11:34 AM

Ah yes, the kool aid people. -sigh- You know, for the number of factual mistakes you post, you probably should take a break for a while.

Sickels on the trade- "This may not seem like a great haul for Liriano, but given his very erratic track record, this package or something like it is probably the best the Twins could hope for."

Baseball America: "A free agent after the season, Liriano's wildly-fluctuating results made it unlikely that the Twins would have made him the qualifying contract offer necessary to receive draft pick compensation. So while neither Hernandez nor Escobar project to be future impact players, each possesses at least one plus tool and can help the Twins in their organizational rebuild. That's certainly better than nothing."

Liriano has the ability to rip off 7 good starts out of his next ten. It's a worth while gamble and a couple C prospects aren't that high of a price to make if you're wrong. That's why the trade is good from the White Sox side. If he implodes, they don't have any future obligation to him. I'm pretty sure that's Klaw's point. He isn't saying the Twins should've gotten more for Liriano, he's suggesting that it's a worthy gamble by Chicago.


Is trading deadline day a holiday? They're apparently working on double-time rates today.

#10 greenland on the map

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 12:02 PM

I guess after trading away Santana, Garza, Hardy, and Delmon, it is hard to realize that it is possible to end up on the better side of a deal. Sickels, BA, and other fellows on this board rationalizing that this trade was not the Challenger disaster does not make me feel any better.

#11 drjim

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 02:58 PM

I guess after trading away Santana, Garza, Hardy, and Delmon, it is hard to realize that it is possible to end up on the better side of a deal. Sickels, BA, and other fellows on this board rationalizing that this trade was not the Challenger disaster does not make me feel any better.


Luckily you didn't mention one trade that Terry Ryan made.

Even Bill Smith made some trades that worked out - Pavano, Rauch, Diamond to name three.
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#12 drjim

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 03:01 PM

It is possible to agree with Law and still not be critical of Terry Ryan. Though that might cause some serious disruptions to your worldview. The one argument I can hear is that they should have let Liriano make one more start instead of accepting that package. But if he goes 7 ip, 2 r, 8 ks, I really don't think it would have made a difference in his value. The downside was much greater (injury for one).
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#13 diehardtwinsfan

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 03:19 PM

I wish Terry Ryan in my fantasy league. It is always nice having the clueless manager you can fleece at any time. I'm sure that is how other MLB execs view TR.


Before stepping down the last time, Ryan had quite the reputation for being a shrewed trader. Brian Sabean certainly won't be calling him again.

#14 Mike Sixel

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 03:28 PM

Ryan did have that reputation, but outside of the one really big one, I think most had impacts for a season or so. While good trades, it is hard to think of ones that really brought in a long term asset. As for this trade, meh. Liriano could help the Sox, but the Twins were not going to re-sign him, so they got something for him. Just like Young last year. While none of the 4 prospects excite me, it is better than nothing, imo. So I give this one a B-.

I don't know, it is a site to discuss sports, not airline safety.....maybe we should take it less seriously?


#15 DaveW

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 03:37 PM

Of course it is a good trade for the White Sox, they didn't give up any premium prospects and in return got a guy who could bolster their rotation.

Just like the Rangers trade, they got a guy who helps the rotation without giving up anyone they will miss. Though the Cubs didn't "lose" the trade since they got a couple decent prospects back.

That doesn't mean Ryan got fleeced or anything, it just means that the White Sox made a nice trade for themselves. You think the Indians are crying years later about the Pavano trade? Do we really think we "fleeced" them good when we gave up Pino for Pavano?

#16 Fire Dan Gladden

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 03:48 PM

I also read the Klaw article. My takeaway was more that it was worth the gamble for the Sox to take. Costing them some money and and few low level prospects for the possibility of some good starts down the stretch. Klaw was wrong about one thing though. He mentioned that, if anything, Liriano would help them to manage innings down the stretch. I wonder if he realizes that even at his best, Liriano only typically gives you six innings due to high pitch counts...

#17 one_eyed_jack

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 03:53 PM

So the only people who like the deal so far are people who think Ryan can do no wrong...



---Actually, it's more the case that the only people still complaining about this deal are the ones who think Ryan can do no right.

The rest of us were at worst mildly disappointed but not terribly surprised that we didn't get more and have moved on from talking about the trade, because it really isn't that big a deal.

#18 birdwatcher

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 04:06 PM

thrylos, you just can't help yourself, can you? You'll never be honest enough with yourself to see the reality, which is that most of us can in fact find both positive AND negative things. It's called fairness. Try it some time. Just once.

#19 fatbeer

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 04:36 PM

Liriano is like an NBA player who scores a lot of points but doesn't play defense, he looks like a lot of the all-star types but in reality isn't as valuable as a kyle Loshe. If he gets you to the 7th inning giving up 1 run and making batters look silly you can have no more confidence he won't give up at least 3 as you would going into the game. Wins might have more to do with your offense then anything else, but losses tend to reflect a pitcher.

#20 DaveW

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 04:50 PM

Liriano is like an NBA player who scores a lot of points but doesn't play defense, he looks like a lot of the all-star types but in reality isn't as valuable as a kyle Loshe. If he gets you to the 7th inning giving up 1 run and making batters look silly you can have no more confidence he won't give up at least 3 as you would going into the game. Wins might have more to do with your offense then anything else, but losses tend to reflect a pitcher.


7 Quality starts in 17 starts this season. Not good.