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Trade Deadline Heartache.

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#1 Fanatic Jack

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 10:57 PM

I was bouncing off the walls and smiling with delight back in early November when it was announced Terry Ryan was returning to be the Twins General Manager again. Bill Smith is a very nice man but clearly made some very bad decisions affecting the future of the organization. I honestly believed at the time Smith was replaced because of his inability to evaluate talent but clearly it was more than that. I’m starting to play devil’s advocate and think the main reason was all about MONEY. I think Pohlad, St. Peter, and the boys met with Smith and asked him about his off-season plan to turn a team around that had lost 99 games. My belief is Smith looked at them and said he wanted to resign Cuddyer, Kubel, and Nathan to deals. Smith also indicated he planned on signing 1-2 free agents on the market as well. Smith told them the only way he could do this is if the team increased payroll by about $10-15 million. This is where the conversation ended immediately. Pohlad knew he wanted to cut payroll but nobody could of imagined it would be by $20 million
.

What has Terry Ryan done with his limited payroll? He let Cuddyer leave and replaced him with a cheaper more powerful Josh Willingham. He let Nathan and Kubel leave as free agents and both were All-Stars this year with their new clubs. He signed free agents Jamey Carroll, Ryan Doumit, Matt Capps, Jason Marquis, and Joel Zumaya. Right now only Willingham and Doumit look like quality signings. Carroll has been solid but is hitting .242 and at times really shown his age. Capps, Marquis, and Zumaya were all just terrible deals. The trade deadline is approaching fast and Ryan appears to have missed his opportunity to deal players at their peak value. The Twins refuse to trade Morneau or Willingham for some unknown reason. Span was hitting over .300 in May and now his average is down to .280. He has suffered with some dizziness and has dropped several fly balls for no reason. Liriano should have been dealt before the game in Chicago tonight but instead he was allowed to pitch. The end result is he was shelled and gave up 7 runs, 3 HRs, in 2.2 IP. The bottom line is the team can’t give Liriano away after his latest clunker and he could turn into the next Delmon Young. Last year Young was given away to Detroit in August for two career minor leaguers Cole Nelson and Lester Oliveros. Capps should have been traded in May when he was racking up saves but instead Ryan waited and now he is on the disabled list. The Twins look to be heading into a trade deadline heartache and Ryan needs to be held accountable for the massive mistake of holding on to players for too long.

Edited by Fanatic Jack, 23 July 2012 - 11:06 PM.


#2 FrodaddyG

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 11:02 PM

I tried plugging this into Google translate and it kept telling me it already was in English...

#3 Fanatic Jack

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 12:11 AM

Yeah right.

#4 Shane Wahl

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 12:39 AM

Carroll is not done yet, put obviously the Capps re-signing was almost barbarically stupid as the Nick Blackburn contract. Lester Oliveros is bound to be a good contributor for the Twins in 2013 and Cole Nelson is not done either. Liriano needs to be traded for one top prospect and one sleeper B prospect, OR one pre-arb good pitcher and a low level B- prospect. Short of that, trade him later in a package with Valencia and Pugh or Watts.

#5 drunksam

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 12:45 AM

I tried plugging this into Google translate and it kept telling me it already was in English...


ditto...it reads more like a junior high girl's ranting on the latest trendy movie/pop star/whatever thing that really isn't interesting, but looks pretty and now disappoints because it's aged thing.

So many May (trades in May???? Really?) deals passed up....WTF, grow up and realize we have been dealing from a position of weakness and the deadline isn't even here yet (close, but **** if we were going to deal for that beautiful Japaneses man that swings a pretty bat). It just got weaker in some respects, much like most of my bar nights picking up women of lose morals (Early in the night it may seem like I have something to offer, but in those Midwest bars they eventually turn on the lights and it doesn't look so pretty), but there's still hope to pick up a decent stray or two. Prospect that is.

Maybe I'm just numb to it now.
Better looking with the lights out.

#6 Pius Jefferson

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 12:54 AM

Is this the same Jack that calls up the 1500 call in show with Doogie?

#7 PseudoSABR

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 01:00 AM

I really like your font.

#8 twinsnorth49

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 01:17 AM

ditto...it reads more like a junior high girl's ranting on the latest trendy movie/pop star/whatever thing that really isn't interesting, but looks pretty and now disappoints because it's aged thing.

So many May (trades in May???? Really?) deals passed up....WTF, grow up and realize we have been dealing from a position of weakness and the deadline isn't even here yet (close, but **** if we were going to deal for that beautiful Japaneses man that swings a pretty bat). It just got weaker in some respects, much like most of my bar nights picking up women of lose morals (Early in the night it may seem like I have something to offer, but in those Midwest bars they eventually turn on the lights and it doesn't look so pretty), but there's still hope to pick up a decent stray or two. Prospect that is.

Maybe I'm just numb to it now.


The loser talking about his drunken, late night bar triumphs is telling guys to grow up, funny. Talk about junior high crap.

#9 Highabove

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 02:22 AM

The loser talking about his drunken, late night bar triumphs is telling guys to grow up, funny. Talk about junior high crap.


Yea, I agree.

The Forum has dropped a few notches over the last month.
It was bound to happen.

Edited by Highabove, 24 July 2012 - 02:35 AM.


#10 FrodaddyG

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 02:59 AM

Yea, I agree.

The Forum has dropped a few notches over the last month.
It was bound to happen.

Trust us, we're less pleased about us being here than you are.

#11 kab21

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 03:34 AM

Is the OP crying about losing Delmon Young? The same Delmon that is currently hitting with a .689 OPS? When did Liriano ever have much trade value? His ERA's by month this year are 11, 4.5, 3 and 5 after he was horrible last year. his latest clunker didn't help but teams regarded him as a pretty questionable trade target regardless. I think Smith said that more money would fix last year's problems and management questioned the team's ability to compete. Ryan (imo) said that the team would need to rebuild and so far we are seeing that. I also see a lot of complaining about payroll but then they ignore the almost 15M (tops in the majors) that the Twins have plowed into the draft and int'l FA. Payroll will go down again this year but that is so the Twins aren't stuck with a bunch of aging FA's when the farm system starts coming thru. I do hate the Capps decision though.

#12 diehardtwinsfan

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 07:34 AM

you are going to win and lose some in FA. Cuddy was overpriced, and Willingham was the right move, as was Doumit. I didn't like everything Ryan did, but he hit the picks that mattered most, so in that I'll give him pass. I do hope that he's looking hard in free agency for pitching for 2013 if the plan is to be reasonably competitive....

#13 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 07:37 AM

you are going to win and lose some in FA. Cuddy was overpriced, and Willingham was the right move, as was Doumit. I didn't like everything Ryan did, but he hit the picks that mattered most, so in that I'll give him pass. I do hope that he's looking hard in free agency for pitching for 2013 if the plan is to be reasonably competitive....


I don't understand how anyone could call this past offseason a failure. Carroll was meh but Doumit was a good signing and Willingham was a great one. The huge oversight was pitching but most of us knew that going into the season. Ryan did a damned good job considering his budget.

#14 J-Dog Dungan

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 07:42 AM

there are several points that I would like to make about this blog:
1. I really like the Carroll signing because it brings stability and defense to the infield.
2. Zumaya's deal wasn't horrible, it was just a low-risk, high-reward kind of deal that went towards the low risk.
3. I believe that the Twins are actively shopping both Morneau and Willinghammer, but that don't mean that they have found the right one yet.
4. I think most GM's, like me, would put last night's debacle with Liriano up to one of those bad starts that all pitchers have sometimes (Verlander in All-Star Game :), but you are right, it probably does lower his trade value
5. Lester Oliveros, when healthy, hasn't been that bad and looks like a fairly good bullpen guy if he can keep injuries and walks under control. With Cole Nelson, you are probably right; but then again, we all thought the Billy Bullock for Diamond deal was the wrong move to make.
6a) Nobody was expecting Capps to get injured, as he had stayed relatively healthy while with the Twins
6b) Not many people would be giving away a "proven" (for what it's worth) reliever/ closer in May, because the likelyhood of you getting a good deal that early in the season is very low.
7. Ryan isn't holding on too players too long, he is (hopefully) letting them build up their trade value so that other teams would be desperate to get their hands on them so they might give up more for the Hammer or Morneau than we might think they should.
8. If we could have spared the payroll, I wouldn't have minded the Twins resigning Nathan, because he has been deadly while with the Rangers this year.
9. The Capps deal was all right and was fairly effective until he got injured
10. the Marquis deal, again, was one of the low-risk, high reward kind of deals that made Ryan look like a genius the last stretch he was GM
11. I have to believe that Span is just going through a slump and/or dealing with the same kind of stress at the Trade Deadline that he did last year.
12. I would say that Josh Willinghammer's peak value is right now, actually, because there are so many teams that are desperate for a righty power bat that the Twins, if they get the right offer (and believe me, the Twins should make sure the deal for them is like the Hershel Walker deal was for whoever traded with the Vikings), might actually be willing to part with Willingham.

#15 Thrylos

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 07:49 AM

Ryan (imo) said that the team would need to rebuild and so far we are seeing that.


If he thought that, why did he sign a bunch of 30-some year olds last off-season (Marquis, Carroll, Doumit, Willingham) ? I suspect that Ryan said that this team will be ok with just pennies being pinched.
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#16 SpiritofVodkaDave

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 07:52 AM

Honest question: Does the original poster understand that Major League Baseball works a little differently then Fantasy baseball? The reason why Span/Willingham/Capps/Liriano all weren't traded in May is because there is next to no market for them. I'd imagine any team looking to bring Span on will be more focused on his long term numbers rather than a 1 month sample size, that would seem prudent since they would be getting him for 3 years or so. Overall this seemed like a pretty baseless rant that had no purpose or point.

#17 SpiritofVodkaDave

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 07:57 AM

If he thought that, why did he sign a bunch of 30-some year olds last off-season (Marquis, Carroll, Doumit, Willingham) ? I suspect that Ryan said that this team will be ok with just pennies being pinched.


You realize that not all rebuilds are 4+ year rebuilds right? When he said they needed to be rebuilt I imagine he had a 2-3 year timeline in mind (good chance to win division in 2014). Willingham, Doumit and Caroll all filled a need at the time, Willingham was the bat set to replace Kubel/Cuddyer, Doumit was the back up catcher that we have been begging for ever since Butera got his first major league at bat and Carroll provided some insurance and stability at the MI spots.

Even when a team is rebuilding they have a responsibility to put a major league club onto the field night in and night out, signing 1 year contracts is never a bad move and Doumit preformed great in that role and looks like he will be a big part of the rebuilding club.

Carroll is hurting nothing long term as is Doumit, unless you think that giving Nishioka, Casilla or the next Tolbert more playing time at SS/2B would help the team as would giving Butera more at bats behind the plate. Neither of these guys are hurting the rebuilding effort!

#18 Fanatic Jack

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 07:58 AM

Twins need to clean house and soon. Texas did it a few years ago when Nolan Ryan took over. St. Peter, Ryan, Rantz, Johnson, Scouts, Gardenhire, and trainers all need to go. However, working for the Pohlad family is great job security because nobody ever gets fired. Heck they even re-hired Bill Smith after his dismal job. This is a MLB team not a charity.

Edited by Fanatic Jack, 24 July 2012 - 08:01 AM.


#19 Brandon

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 08:03 AM

Outside of the Marquis signing, I am happy with what Ryan did during the offseason. I bet within 2 years we have one of the top farm systems in baseball. We had a solid draft, will get high draft picks next year, signed some decent international prospects, and hopefully will get to trade Liriano for something of value. Maybe Span too unless Willingham gets traded for more. I don't think it is a good idea to trade 2 OF's at this time unless we really get great offers on both players. The good thing about Span is that he will hold value next trade deadline when players like Hicks, Benson, Bigley, Arcia are ready to get their chance. Same for Willingham. Although I really like Span and Willingham because of their contracts. They have to be some of the most team friendly contracts out there.

#20 SpiritofVodkaDave

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 08:03 AM

I don't understand how anyone could call this past offseason a failure. Carroll was meh but Doumit was a good signing and Willingham was a great one. The huge oversight was pitching but most of us knew that going into the season. Ryan did a damned good job considering his budget.

Pretty much this.

With limited funds he added two impact bats for less than 10 million dollars, moving forward over the next couple years the lineup appears to be in pretty good shape, of course there are still issues of 2B/SS, but when you have 7 other competant hitters in the lineup you can afford to have your puntos, casillas and Doziers at the bottom 1 or 2 spots of the lineup. The real issue you have is when you have 3-4 sub .700 OPS guys in your lineup all at once.

At this point Ryan should have 20 or so million to dedicate to starting pitching this off-season, if Span and Morneau are traded that number could jump to close to 40 million to spend. I like his chances to be honest, not only because of this past off-season, but because he has had so much success in the past with this club. 6 division titles in 9 years with teams he put together is track record Billy Beane and about 22 other GM's wishes they had.

#21 SpiritofVodkaDave

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 08:06 AM

Twins need to clean house and soon. Texas did it a few years ago when Nolan Ryan took over. St. Peter, Ryan, Rantz, Johnson, Scouts, Gardenhire, and trainers all need to go. However, working for the Pohlad family is great job security because nobody ever gets fired. Heck they even re-hired Bill Smith after his dismal job. This is a MLB team not a charity.

They repositioned Smith in the organization. I will be the first to say that Smith was a pretty awful GM, that doesn't mean he can't be an asset in other areas of the organization though, if anything I applaud the Twins and Smith for not just kicking him to the curb but finding him a role where he can continue to benefit the team like he did prior to his GM stint.

#22 johnnydakota

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 08:18 AM

Is the OP crying about losing Delmon Young? The same Delmon that is currently hitting with a .689 OPS?

When did Liriano ever have much trade value? His ERA's by month this year are 11, 4.5, 3 and 5 after he was horrible last year. his latest clunker didn't help but teams regarded him as a pretty questionable trade target regardless.

I think Smith said that more money would fix last year's problems and management questioned the team's ability to compete. Ryan (imo) said that the team would need to rebuild and so far we are seeing that. I also see a lot of complaining about payroll but then they ignore the almost 15M (tops in the majors) that the Twins have plowed into the draft and int'l FA. Payroll will go down again this year but that is so the Twins aren't stuck with a bunch of aging FA's when the farm system starts coming thru. I do hate the Capps decision though.

the twins drafted a pair of 18 year olds... which decade will they help in?

#23 johnnydakota

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 08:20 AM

They repositioned Smith in the organization. I will be the first to say that Smith was a pretty awful GM, that doesn't mean he can't be an asset in other areas of the organization though, if anything I applaud the Twins and Smith for not just kicking him to the curb but finding him a role where he can continue to benefit the team like he did prior to his GM stint.


bathroom attendent maybe? after all didnt he have input into the gay stadium called target field?

#24 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 08:22 AM

bathroom attendent maybe? after all didnt he have input into the gay stadium called target field?


"Gay stadium"? Tone it down. I don't have many hot buttons but that's one of them.

#25 TheLeviathan

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 08:28 AM

So if I start a thread praising the "closer mentality" of Matt Capps, the "veteran presence" of Jamey Carroll, and Ben Revere's "Smiley Factor"....will we officially have jumped the shark here already?

#26 twinsnorth49

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 08:44 AM

Trust us, we're less pleased about us being here than you are.


Don't let the door hit you on the way out. I mean that figuratively, not literally by the way.

#27 Riverbrian

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 08:56 AM

Don't let the door hit you on the way out. I mean that figuratively, not literally by the way.


Hey North... Good to have you back. Haven't seen you posting in awhile. The Board isn't the same unless you are here.

#28 notoriousgod71

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 09:36 AM

Don't let the door hit you on the way out. I mean that figuratively, not literally by the way.



If Rodney King were still around I have a feeling he'd have some sage-like advice for everyone.

#29 twinsnorth49

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 09:38 AM

Hey North... Good to have you back. Haven't seen you posting in awhile. The Board isn't the same unless you are here.


Cheers RB, too much negativity for awhile, I love when guys try to prove you're wrong about liking something. I'm a baseball fan and especially a Twins fan, in the big picture there is lots of good discussion here, you just have to filter out the crap.

#30 Nick Nelson

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 09:44 AM

Trust us, we're less pleased about us being here than you are.

I'm sorry, is someone forcing you to post here?