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Changes to rule(s) pertaining to breaking up the DP

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#21 Hosken Bombo Disco

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Posted 26 February 2016 - 08:37 AM

He was already out and deliberately altered his slide to take the guy out. Kangs leg was broken on a dirty slide and, thankfully, the new rule will enforce that.
He is a good two feet to the side of the base, there is no justification for the runner to hit him.

"A good two feet" isn't that far and the runner still maintained possession of the bag easily with his hand.

There are much more egregious examples of bad slides, such as the Utley one, which is what this rule is in place to eliminate.

#22 gunnarthor

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Posted 26 February 2016 - 09:51 AM

The rule seems ok.  It'll still allow the hard slides that guys like Cuddy used to do all the time but it eliminates the more aggressive slides like Utley's.  I'm sure there will some iffy calls during the season while it gets implemented but shouldn't be a big issue.  It'll be interesting to see how the umps enforce this.  


#23 TheLeviathan

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Posted 26 February 2016 - 10:34 AM

 

"A good two feet" isn't that far and the runner still maintained possession of the bag easily with his hand.

There are much more egregious examples of bad slides, such as the Utley one, which is what this rule is in place to eliminate.

 

Just because there are worse examples doesn't make this one ok.  His slide form was a deliberate take out.

 

I could care less that he could still touch the bag, I care that he's actually trying to slide and be safe and not deliver a flying kick to a middle infielder.

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#24 Mike Sixel

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Posted 26 February 2016 - 10:41 AM

The sooner slides whose intention is not to get to the base as fast as possible, but to hit a fielder, are gone from the game, the better.

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#25 Hosken Bombo Disco

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Posted 26 February 2016 - 12:18 PM

I have a hard time believing that every slide is either clean or dirty, black or white.

For people who believe the Coughlan slide into Kang was dirty, can you post some videos of some clean slides or slides which you are not sure about?

#26 spinowner

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Posted 26 February 2016 - 12:59 PM

Maybe I'm just being a simpleton.

Section 7.09 of the rules covers interference. Here's rule 7.09(d): "It is interference when any batter or runner who has just been put out hinders or impedes any following play being made on a runner. Such runner shall be declared out for the interference of his teammate."

From the moment the runner approaching second base on a potential double play is out he can not hinder or impede the defensive player. At all. This means no take-out slide. Can't this long-existing rule simply be enforced?

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#27 gunnarthor

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Posted 26 February 2016 - 01:10 PM

 

Maybe I'm just being a simpleton.

Section 7.09 of the rules covers interference. Here's rule 7.09(d): "It is interference when any batter or runner who has just been put out hinders or impedes any following play being made on a runner. Such runner shall be declared out for the interference of his teammate."

From the moment the runner approaching second base on a potential double play is out he can not hinder or impede the defensive player. At all. This means no take-out slide. Can't this long-existing rule simply be enforced?

My thinking is that that part of the rule was never enforced and what this new rule is trying to do is make sure slides like Utley's don't happen.  I don't think the umpires will be too aggressive but we'll see.  I don't think this changes much since slides like Utley's were pretty rare.  Where we'll end up seeing controversy is if/when umpires call interference on plays most of us think were pretty tame.  We say some problems with the 'catch' rule implemented last year, IIRC.  

 

Generally, I don't think this is a big deal. It gives some consideration to player safety, doesn't alter the game much and will probably be forgotten fairly soon.  I admit, I loved the Hal McRae slides but those have been out of baseball for 30+ years.  The game is fine.  I don't think we're going to be turning into the Japanese game where this is no contact at second, but we'll see.   

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#28 spinowner

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Posted 26 February 2016 - 02:23 PM

 

My thinking is that that part of the rule was never enforced and what this new rule is trying to do is make sure slides like Utley's don't happen.  I don't think the umpires will be too aggressive but we'll see.  I don't think this changes much since slides like Utley's were pretty rare.  Where we'll end up seeing controversy is if/when umpires call interference on plays most of us think were pretty tame.  We say some problems with the 'catch' rule implemented last year, IIRC.  

 

Generally, I don't think this is a big deal. It gives some consideration to player safety, doesn't alter the game much and will probably be forgotten fairly soon.  I admit, I loved the Hal McRae slides but those have been out of baseball for 30+ years.  The game is fine.  I don't think we're going to be turning into the Japanese game where this is no contact at second, but we'll see.   

Hal McRae was not highly respected by many. I wish I could find the picture of him sliding into Glenn Borgmann in 1977. He came in fast and planted his right foot squarely on Borgmann's left knee. I thought it was obvious from the picture that he was intending to injure.


#29 Mike Sixel

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Posted 26 February 2016 - 02:28 PM

 

Maybe I'm just being a simpleton.

Section 7.09 of the rules covers interference. Here's rule 7.09(d): "It is interference when any batter or runner who has just been put out hinders or impedes any following play being made on a runner. Such runner shall be declared out for the interference of his teammate."

From the moment the runner approaching second base on a potential double play is out he can not hinder or impede the defensive player. At all. This means no take-out slide. Can't this long-existing rule simply be enforced?

 

This is why many internet writers say the new rule is silly, just have the umps enforce the existing rules......

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#30 tobi0040

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Posted 26 February 2016 - 02:41 PM

Everyone used to do it.Now nobody will be able to do it.So from a competition perspective, nothing is lost whatsoever. 

 

What is lost is unneccesary injuries.Good players missing time.Owners paying guys to not play. Career ending injuries, concussions (Morneau), etc. 

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#31 spycake

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Posted 26 February 2016 - 03:00 PM

 

I think the new rule is trying to remove context. If there's a throw coming in from left field to the short inside of part of the bag on a player trying to leg out a double, you might see that very same slide that took out Kang.

And in that case, the runner wouldn't be trying to initiate contact with the fielder, and it would be OK.

 

You might as well argue that throwing at a right-handed batter's head is OK too, because a pitcher might throw the same pitch as a pitchout against a left-handed batter.

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#32 TheLeviathan

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Posted 26 February 2016 - 03:01 PM

 

Everyone used to do it.Now nobody will be able to do it.So from a competition perspective, nothing is lost whatsoever. 

 

What is lost is unneccesary injuries.Good players missing time.Owners paying guys to not play. Career ending injuries, concussions (Morneau), etc. 

 

Right, whatever tiny gain you feel it is for you enjoyment of the game is WAY more than offset by the pain the Pirates' fans felt last year to not have Kang the rest of the season.

 

The sum total of this move is overwhelmingly positive. 

 

This is how you're taught to slide into second on a double.  No reason you can't slide into it that way on a double play too.


#33 tobi0040

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Posted 26 February 2016 - 03:02 PM

 

And in that case, the runner wouldn't be trying to initiate contact with the fielder, and it would be OK.

 

You might as well argue that throwing at a right-handed batter's head is OK too, because a pitcher might throw the same pitch as a pitchout against a left-handed batter.

 

Yeah, it is 100% obvious virtually every time if a guy is trying to initiate contact. Whether that be starting his slide at the bag (which would result in sliding 10 feet past the bag), or the leg whip, or what have you.There should be very little, if any judgement issues here.


#34 tobi0040

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Posted 26 February 2016 - 03:04 PM

 

Right, whatever tiny gain you feel it is for you enjoyment of the game is WAY more than offset by the pain the Pirates' fans felt last year to not have Kang the rest of the season.

 

The sum total of this move is overwhelmingly positive. 

 

This is how you're taught to slide into second on a double.  No reason you can't slide into it that way on a double play too.

 

Exactly.And players, even veterans had to slide the old way. Young players certainly did. They had to be tough, play the "right way" etc.So Morneau technically had to slide late on the concussion play.

 

This removes all that BS.


#35 gunnarthor

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Posted 26 February 2016 - 03:13 PM

 

Everyone used to do it.Now nobody will be able to do it.So from a competition perspective, nothing is lost whatsoever. 

 

What is lost is unneccesary injuries.Good players missing time.Owners paying guys to not play. Career ending injuries, concussions (Morneau), etc. 

Woah.  Morneau's slide wasn't remotely dirty.  It was just a freak thing and I don't think the new rule would have prevented it or called Cuddy out.  

 

http://m.mlb.com/vid...er-getting-hurt

 

It that's a dirty slide outlawed by the new rules, then I think they'll have a much bigger impact on the game and we're looking at Japanese rules.  But I don't think it'll come to that.

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#36 TheLeviathan

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Posted 26 February 2016 - 03:19 PM

Morneau's injury happened because he tried to slide into the 2B.  If he had been sliding to be safe it's likely he stops long before he reaches McDonald.  

 

Instead he slide over the bag and tried to get McDonald's legs.  Was it dirty?  No.  Dumb and unnecessary?  Yes.  And it cost us as Twins fans A LOT.

 

Sooner this mentality is gone the better.


#37 tobi0040

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Posted 26 February 2016 - 03:21 PM

 

Woah.  Morneau's slide wasn't remotely dirty.  It was just a freak thing and I don't think the new rule would have prevented it or called Cuddy out.  

 

http://m.mlb.com/vid...er-getting-hurt

 

It that's a dirty slide outlawed by the new rules, then I think they'll have a much bigger impact on the game and we're looking at Japanese rules.  But I don't think it'll come to that.

 

He would have slid past the bag and not slide that late had it not been a double play ball.

 

In my opinion.


#38 gunnarthor

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Posted 26 February 2016 - 03:27 PM

 

He would have slid past the bag and not slide that late had it not been a double play ball.

 

In my opinion.

Well, again, I don't think the new rule will change that nor would I want it to.  We'll see how the enforcement goes.  


#39 spycake

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Posted 26 February 2016 - 03:43 PM

 

Well, again, I don't think the new rule will change that nor would I want it to.  We'll see how the enforcement goes.  

The article quotes the new rule as including the following requirement for a legal slide: "being able to and attempting to remain on the base at the completion of the slide".  Morneau clearly failed to do that, no?

 

I could see a similar slide working, though it would require not leaning so heavily off the bag toward the fielder (which would have spared Morneau the concussion too).


#40 h2oface

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Posted 26 February 2016 - 04:13 PM

 

Everyone used to do it.Now nobody will be able to do it.So from a competition perspective, nothing is lost whatsoever. 

 

What is lost is unneccesary injuries.Good players missing time.Owners paying guys to not play. Career ending injuries, concussions (Morneau), etc. 

 

Morneau's slide would still be legal under the new rule. He went straight into second base. He surely started his slide a bit later than he could have, and clearly wanted to disrupt the second baseman, but he did not alter his path and slid right into the base and it looks to me like he could clearly stay in contact. The second baseman was held up by the throw, but this is a fair and good slide even by the new and improved rule. It goes to show you that when you purposely behave to make contact in a not contact sport and stretch the "spirit of the game" intentions, that instant karma can get you when you least expect it.

 

http://m.mlb.com/vid...r-getting-hurt 

Edited by h2oface, 26 February 2016 - 04:18 PM.