Jump to content

Providing independent coverage of the Minnesota Twins.
Subscribe to Twins Daily Email
Photo

Article: The Twins' Next Hall Of Famer

mike piazza joe mauer hall of fame
  • Please log in to reply
80 replies to this topic

#21 gunnarthor

gunnarthor

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 9,164 posts

Posted 14 January 2016 - 01:39 PM

 

I am having a hard time seeing where Hunter has a Better resume for the HOF than Edmonds, who fell off the ballot 1st time due to the 10 player vote max. Edmonds has the better stat slash line, a better wRC+, and roughly 25 more WAR. And he was a top notch defender as was Hunter. where is the argument Hunter has a better HOF case than Edmonds?

I don't believe anyone suggested Hunter was a better candidate for the HOF than Edmonds (or Lofton).  I certainly did not intend to suggest that, if it was me you think did that.  I did say that on an uncrowded ballot, he might be able to stick around (unlike those two who were on crowded ballots).  

 

WAR is a bit interesting - by b-r it's about a 10 WAR difference while fWAR it's 25.  I wonder if we'll ever move beyond WAR in grading our HOFers or move more toward it.


#22 jimmer

jimmer

    A former AF SNCO who values integrity.

  • Members
  • 10,212 posts

Posted 14 January 2016 - 01:46 PM

The person who started this thread said Hunter has a better resume than Edmonds. He said it in the original post

#23 gunnarthor

gunnarthor

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 9,164 posts

Posted 14 January 2016 - 02:00 PM

 

The person who started this thread said Hunter has a better resume than Edmonds. He said it in the original post

Yep, he did.  He's wrong.

  • Thrylos likes this

#24 Halsey Hall

Halsey Hall

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 2,532 posts
  • LocationCurrently Hammond Stadium

Posted 14 January 2016 - 02:13 PM

Mauer's got a chance.Sano probably the next to go in as a Twin though.

  • Thrylos likes this

he gone!


#25 KGB

KGB

    Junior Member

  • Members
  • 475 posts

Posted 14 January 2016 - 03:01 PM

 

I don't believe anyone suggested Hunter was a better candidate for the HOF than Edmonds (or Lofton).  I certainly did not intend to suggest that, if it was me you think did that.  I did say that on an uncrowded ballot, he might be able to stick around (unlike those two who were on crowded ballots).  

 

WAR is a bit interesting - by b-r it's about a 10 WAR difference while fWAR it's 25.  I wonder if we'll ever move beyond WAR in grading our HOFers or move more toward it.

If we are using WAR for the HOF, Edmonds had a better career than not just Hunter, but also Mauer.  

 

But I think both Hunter and Mauer will get through the first year.Not sure anyone can rationalize why they don't vote for some players.Lance Berkman will be another high WAR player who probably will not be on the ballot long.


#26 ALessKosherScott

ALessKosherScott

    Member

  • Members
  • 493 posts

Posted 14 January 2016 - 03:36 PM

 

http://www.billjames...reat_catchers_/

 

 

Actually…that’s not exactly true. Joe Mauer is currently a few decimals ahead of Johnny Bench (5.74 to 5.62), but his career is still going along. Let’s stick with Johnny Bench for a moment.

I suppose all of you know about Johnny Bench. He was a terrific hitter: he had one year when he hit 45 homers, knocked in 148 RBI’s. He was twenty-two years old that year. A few years later he hit 40 homers, 128 RBI. These seasons happened when pitching had recently dominated baseball, and people were flabbergasted by it.

Bench was a great hitter. He was also a brilliant defensive player: he had a cannon for an arm. He was a central cog on one of the greatest teams in baseball history.

There’s no knock to Bench’s career: he was an absolutely dominant offensive player, and a terrific defensive player. His teams won lots of games; his individual accomplishments seemed to have a direct correlation to his team’s success. He was the perfect catcher.

Here are the players, by position, that Johnny Bench most compares to:


Pos.

Name

WAR/162

Rank in Position
C
Johnny Bench
5.6
1st
1B
Dick Allen
5.7
8th
2B
Charlie Gehringer
5.5
9th
SS
Joe Cronin
5.1
5th
3B
Scott Rolen
5.6
6th
RF
Larry Walker
5.6
5th
CF
Larry Doby
5.1
6th
LF
Rickey Henderson
5.7
6th

This is not an impressive list. It’s certainly a good list….Rickey Henderson was one of the smartest baseball players of all-time, and all of the others are worthy Hall-of-Famers. But none of them are serious contenders as the best players at their respective positions. Dick Allen wasn’t close to Gehrig or Foxx or Pujols. Larry Walker is ranked 5th among right-fielders, but he’s not close to Ruth or Aaron. Even Rickey doesn’t quite approach the likes of Ted Williams, Barry Bonds, or Stan Musial.

This seems strange to me. Even if you don’t think Bench is the #1 catcher of all-time…even if you’re partial to Yogi Berra or Josh Gibson…you’d concede that it’s not irrational for other people to believe that Bench is the greatest catcher ever.

Is it rational, then, that a strong candidate for the title of greatest catcher of all-time has a per-162 game rate that’s so far below the best players at every other position on the diamond? Is it rational to believe that there have been no really great catchers in major league history?

Or is something wrong with WAR?

  • gunnarthor and Willihammer like this

#27 EddieMatthews

EddieMatthews

    Cedar Rapids

  • Members
  • 120 posts

Posted 14 January 2016 - 03:44 PM

While Mauer's HOF credentials have been tarnished by his post-concussion performance, he had 8 solid years as a catcher.  However, I think that his 2011 year is a bigger black mark than the past two post-concussion years.  

 

In the middle of a 10 year run of solid to outstanding catching, Joe developed "bi-lateral leg weakness".  WTF?  it may be a legit ailment, but it has transformed Joe's image to that of a wimp.  

 

I hope Joe can turn his hitting around and get back to .300+ batting.  I hope that the concussion issues are behind him and he can have the same resurgence that Morneau has had.  If he can add another batting title and 5 more years, he's a lock for the HOF.


#28 Longdistancetwins

Longdistancetwins

    Member

  • Members
  • 152 posts
  • LocationNew York City

Posted 14 January 2016 - 04:02 PM

Not living so very far away, I can do Cooperstown as a (long) day trip.  So, I saw Sir Rodney's induction in 1991, Kirby's in 2001, and Bert's in 2011.  Do you see a pattern there?  I was kind of hoping for a Twin in 2021, but I guess I shouldn't be fussy about timing.


#29 Shane Wahl

Shane Wahl

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 6,031 posts

Posted 15 January 2016 - 01:21 AM

This discussion makes me laugh. Joe Mauer will be in the Hall of Fame.


#30 ken

ken

    Cedar Rapids

  • Members
  • 161 posts

Posted 15 January 2016 - 07:37 AM

 

This discussion makes me laugh. Joe Mauer will be in the Hall of Fame.

Yes, in the Twins HOF, but not in MLB's

  • USAFChief and Thrylos like this

#31 Willihammer

Willihammer

    Nostrombolimus

  • Members
  • 7,252 posts
  • LocationSaint Paul

Posted 15 January 2016 - 08:47 AM

 

Great read. I'd be very curious to hear from the Mauer-haters out there any theories as to why the best catchers in history, by WAR, don't stack up at all against the best players of other positions (by WAR). And if WAR is broken, what alternative metric(s) should be used when considering HoF credentials for catchers.

Well, there's that.

-Dark Star, RIP


#32 Shane Wahl

Shane Wahl

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 6,031 posts

Posted 15 January 2016 - 09:03 AM

 

Yes, in the Twins HOF, but not in MLB's

 

Again, laughter ensues here.

A Mauer article gets them out of the woodwork every time. Every time.


#33 ALessKosherScott

ALessKosherScott

    Member

  • Members
  • 493 posts

Posted 15 January 2016 - 09:13 AM

 

While Mauer's HOF credentials have been tarnished by his post-concussion performance, he had 8 solid years as a catcher.  However, I think that his 2011 year is a bigger black mark than the past two post-concussion years.  

 

 

 

In 2011, all Mauer did was post an OPS+ of 102 while fighting injury. And if we're describing his performance from 2004 to 2013 as merely "solid," then we might be setting the bar a little high for catchers. 


#34 Vanimal46

Vanimal46

    Opener Poster

  • Members
  • 10,517 posts
  • LocationAustin, TX

Posted 15 January 2016 - 09:22 AM

 

Again, laughter ensues here.

A Mauer article gets them out of the woodwork every time. Every time.

Sounds like you believe Mauer is a lock to be a HOFer. What's going to be the defining stat that will entice 75% of voters to say yes? Because I don't see one.... 

  • spycake likes this

#35 ken

ken

    Cedar Rapids

  • Members
  • 161 posts

Posted 15 January 2016 - 09:29 AM

 

Great read. I'd be very curious to hear from the Mauer-haters out there any theories as to why the best catchers in history, by WAR, don't stack up at all against the best players of other positions (by WAR). And if WAR is broken, what alternative metric(s) should be used when considering HoF credentials for catchers.

So not believing Mauer is a HOF player makes you a "Mauer-hater"?WAR should be the only measurement of players for HOF?

 

And I get accused of coming out of the woodwork?

  • Hosken Bombo Disco likes this

#36 Steve Lein

Steve Lein

    Senior Member - MiLB Report Contributor

  • Administrators
  • 1,731 posts

Posted 15 January 2016 - 09:39 AM

3 years ago I would have said Mauer was a no brainer. But since then it's changed and I honestly think that unless he bounces back into the type of hitter (.320+ Avg., .400+ OBP) he was as a catcher, that he's not going to make it.

 

How ever many more years he plays with a ~.720 OPS at 1B is going to drop his overall numbers case off the table. I think the argument at that point would become "he was great, but not for long enough." 1 MVP season doesn't get you in either as good as it was, because it was an anomalous performance compared to the rest of his career.

 

All that said, we need the old Joe back to make this discussion silly 10 years down the road!

 

 

 

  • spycake and Hosken Bombo Disco like this
Scouting Report: Power: 30, Hitting: 50, Arm: 60, Defense: 45, Speed: 45. "Line drive swing and shows good contact and on-base abilities. Double's power at his peak. Strong arm from 2B or the OF, stiff hands. Not a fast runner, but above average instincts on the bases. Skinny body doesn't look the part, but will sneak up on you. ACL surgery sapped much of his athleticism." (Probably)

#37 gunnarthor

gunnarthor

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 9,164 posts

Posted 15 January 2016 - 09:39 AM

One thing to help Mauer will be that, by the time he's on the ballot, the HOF will have gone quite a while since it last inducted a catcher.  (Assuming Pudge gets in within his first two years).  Around the time he's on the ballot, there will be a strong push to put in Yadier Molina b/c "greatest defensive catcher" stuff but Mauer will look good in that comparison.  

 

A negative for him will be that the last few catchers inducted had a lot more longevity behind the plate.  


#38 ALessKosherScott

ALessKosherScott

    Member

  • Members
  • 493 posts

Posted 15 January 2016 - 09:43 AM

 

Sounds like you believe Mauer is a lock to be a HOFer. What's going to be the defining stat that will entice 75% of voters to say yes? Because I don't see one.... 

 

Arguably the greatest season ever by a catcher (2009)? A 129 OPS+ which is currently only topped by Piazza and Posey among full-time catchers? A eight-year run where he was historically one of the best hitting and defensive catchers ever?

 

Should we leave Santana out of the Hall of Fame too?


#39 Sconnie

Sconnie

    Touch ‘em all!

  • Members
  • 3,815 posts
  • LocationNW Wisconsin

Posted 15 January 2016 - 09:54 AM

 

Arguably the greatest season ever by a catcher (2009)? A 129 OPS+ which is currently only topped by Piazza and Posey among full-time catchers? A eight-year run where he was historically one of the best hitting and defensive catchers ever?

 

Should we leave Santana out of the Hall of Fame too?

all true, but to gain the HOF cred, he needs to continue playing for several more years, and I think he will play for 5+ years. He'll have played as much or more as a first baseman, than as a catcher. Is Joe's current performance HOF worthy? Do you expect it to improve enough to be HOF worthy again.

 

I have my doubts. If he had retired rather than play through the concussion and transitioned to first base, he would have been a lock.


#40 Vanimal46

Vanimal46

    Opener Poster

  • Members
  • 10,517 posts
  • LocationAustin, TX

Posted 15 January 2016 - 09:55 AM

 

Arguably the greatest season ever by a catcher (2009)? A 129 OPS+ which is currently only topped by Piazza and Posey among full-time catchers? A eight-year run where he was historically one of the best hitting and defensive catchers ever?

 

Should we leave Santana out of the Hall of Fame too?

2009 was a huge outlier from the rest of Mauer's career. If he had a longer stretch of dominance at C I could agree with you, but when it's all said and done he'll have those 8 great years of C, and 6-7 years of below average 1B production under his belt.

Yes I would absolutely leave Santana out of the Hall of Fame too.. He was on pace to be one, but injuries derailed his career. 

Both players are very good, and will be remembered by Twins fans for their great run here, but neither had the longevity to be locks for the HOF. 

  • zenser and Sconnie like this



Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: mike piazza, joe mauer, hall of fame