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Pirates as a trade partner for Twins

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#1 John Bonnes

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 07:49 PM

Since the Twins are facing the Pirates this week, let's talk a little about them as potential trade partners for the Twins. The Pirates are desperate for offense. Their first base situation is an absolute disaster, which is why I talked about Morneau as a possible fit for them. Looking at the MLBTradeRumors thread about the Twins "needing pitching" there are several Pirates fans openly pining for Willingham. The Pirates also have a couple of highly rated pitching prospects. Gerrit Cole was a top 20 overall prospect, a 21-year-old right hander. He just got promoted to AA. Jameson Taillon is a notch below him in status, but still very highly rated, 20 years old, having mixed results in High A ball. They also have a 17 year old that is a high ceiling guy named Luis Heredia. I don't know if either Cole or Taillon is touchable, to be honest, even for Willingham. ANyone else have any ideas?

#2 gunnarthor

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 08:01 PM

I don't know if either Cole or Taillon is touchable, to be honest, even for Willingham. ANyone else have any ideas?


It's certainly something to watch. Pirates are basically tied for the last wildcard spot and, after 19 years of really bad baseball, it'll be interesting to see if they would be willing to move Taillon. If they sign Appel it might make it a bit more possible. But I also expect Pitt to fall down the standings before the deadline looms so they'll end up staying pat. But from the Twins stand point, it makes sense to demand someone like Taillon in return for Willingham. If you don't get him, some other team will (hopefully) pay in a tight race. I think Cole would be untouchable and Hereida's too far away to interest me.

#3 IdahoPilgrim

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 08:04 PM

I read through that same thread, and some of the proposed transactions (obviously from Pirates fans) were out-and-out ridiculous - wanting Willingham and Morneau for a handful of minor league spare parts. I'm hoping that's just fans dreaming (we don't have any of those, do we:)) and not reflecting what the Pirates organization is hoping for. My fear is that the Pirates are thinking the Twins are so desparate for pitching that we'll give away good players for peanuts. If they're serious, they'll offer a Cole or a Taillon, and we should hold out until they do.

#4 shs_59

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 08:07 PM

Luis Heredia and Starling Marte (AAA OF prospect) would be my targets, they just drafted Appel though, so they may be willing to part with 1 of Cole or Taillon....for Willingham but we'd probably have to throw 1 of Perk or Burton at them also to bite.

The Pirates have a SS in Allen Hanson (could be mispelling his name) in A Ball who is a VERY good and advanced hitter for his age, that will certainly rocket up the minor leagues in the next year or so.... He is a REAL Middle Infield prospect and I'd probably do Doumit or one of the relievers straight up for him. -they'd probably be more willing to part with Hanson or Hansen? than Marte.
Top Twins prospects ? 1.Byron Buxton (OF-A+)
2.Miguel Sano (3B-AA) 3.Alex Meyer (SP-AA) 4. Kohl Stewart (SP-RK) 5. Nick Gordon (SS-RK) 6. J.O. Berrios (P-A) 7. Josmil Pinto (C-AAA) 8. Eddie Rosario (2B-AA) 9. L. Thorpe (SP-RK) 10. Travis Harrison (3B-A) 11.Kennys Vargas (1B-A+) 12. Trevor May (SP-AA) 13. Jorge Polanco (2B-A) 14. Max Kepler (OF-A) 15. Miguel Sulbaran (SP-A) Just Missed:P Zach Jones, SS Aderlin Mejia, P Stephen Gonsalves, C Stuart Turner.

#5 PMKI

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 08:16 PM

Luis Heredia and Starling Marte (AAA OF prospect) would be my targets, they just drafted Appel though, so they may be willing to part with 1 of Cole or Taillon....for Willingham but we'd probably have to throw 1 of Perk or Burton at them also to bite.

The Pirates have a SS in Allen Hanson (could be mispelling his name) in A Ball who is a VERY good and advanced hitter for his age, that will certainly rocket up the minor leagues in the next year or so.... He is a REAL Middle Infield prospect and I'd probably do Doumit or one of the relievers straight up for him. -they'd probably be more willing to part with Hanson or Hansen? than Marte.


Doumit going back to Pittsburgh? Interesting. I like the idea of getting Alen Hanson, he is still a ways away but he would be somebody who would come up with the Sano group. I really cannot see the Pirates giving up either Cole or Taillon but it would be great if I was wrong.

#6 John Bonnes

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 08:54 PM

Luis Heredia and Starling Marte (AAA OF prospect) would be my targets, they just drafted Appel though, so they may be willing to part with 1 of Cole or Taillon....for Willingham but we'd probably have to throw 1 of Perk or Burton at them also to bite.

The Pirates have a SS in Allen Hanson (could be mispelling his name) in A Ball who is a VERY good and advanced hitter for his age, that will certainly rocket up the minor leagues in the next year or so.... He is a REAL Middle Infield prospect and I'd probably do Doumit or one of the relievers straight up for him. -they'd probably be more willing to part with Hanson or Hansen? than Marte.


Hanson is a very interesting name. It goes against the grain because he's not pitching. He's also not a shortstop. He's also at the same level as Rosario. But 19 years old with a .558 slugging in Low A? Wow.

Does anyone know of a pitching prospect that might be a good fit for trading Morneau?

#7 jorgenswest

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 09:19 PM

Do you think the Pirates will take on the multiyear salary commitment and trade for Willingham or Morneau? The new CBA will shake up the trade market this year. Similar players in the last year of the contract should be "cheaper" to acquire. Teams will be desparate to trade them because they will not receive comp picks at the end of the year. For example, Carlos Quentin will be a free agent after the season. The Padres will be motivated to trade him or get nothing at the end of the year. The Pirates or similar team would not need to take on his contract over multiple years. He will be traded for less than what the Twins should accept for Willingham. This new CBA environment could depress the entire trade market with some teams highly motivated to trade their players with expiring contracts. The best match for players like Willingham or Morneau would be teams that have shown they are more willing to take on long term commitment. For that reason, I don't think the Pirates are a good fit.

#8 Jeremy Nygaard

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 09:22 PM

Cole can't be traded this year before the deadline since he signed on August 15th last year. Though that point is moot, since neither him nor Taillon will be moved for anything short of baseball's elite. Heredia is an interesting case, but I don't see him being moved either... I don't think the Pirates will be buyers either, but for the sake of this thread, I'll throw some names out: Kyle McPherson, RHP, AA. McPherson, the Pirates minor league pitcher of the year in 2011, made his season debut on Saturday after being out with shoulder inflammation all year. He was good too. Picture Scott Diamond, turn him right-handed, make him a little bigger, switch out his mediocre 2011 with a really good year... and that's McPherson. Not going to strike out a ton of guys, but won't walk guys either. He's a little bit older, but I'd bet attainable. Victor Black, RHRP, AA. Black was a guy I thought the Twins would target when there were Pirates/Kubel rumors last year. He's battled injuries, but has been healthy and really good in 2012. He profiles as a guy who could work his way to the very back of the bullpen if he can keep the walks under control. He's a power arm who strikes a lot of guys out. Zack Von Rosenberg, RHP, HiA. I've always been a fan of Von Rosenberg, even though he's been far from great. He was a high school guy that dropped because of signability concerns (was going to play baseball and punt at LSU), but took a big bonus and has been a disappointment. He had a rough spring training, just recently making his season debut. I think he could still develop... and this might be a chance to buy low.

#9 nicksaviking

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 10:41 PM

Taillon and Cole? I hope people from other organizations don't find this thread and laugh at us.

#10 Jeremy Nygaard

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 10:51 PM

Taillon and Cole? I hope people from other organizations don't find this thread and laugh at us.


No kidding, huh? Their are probably Pirates fans out there that think they can trade Stetson Allie for both Morneau and Willingham, so it all evens out eventually.

But you're right, Taillon and Cole - not going anywhere.

#11 shs_59

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 10:58 PM

Cole can't be traded this year before the deadline since he signed on August 15th last year. Though that point is moot, since neither him nor Taillon will be moved for anything short of baseball's elite. Heredia is an interesting case, but I don't see him being moved either...

I don't think the Pirates will be buyers either, but for the sake of this thread, I'll throw some names out:

Kyle McPherson, RHP, AA. McPherson, the Pirates minor league pitcher of the year in 2011, made his season debut on Saturday after being out with shoulder inflammation all year. He was good too. Picture Scott Diamond, turn him right-handed, make him a little bigger, switch out his mediocre 2011 with a really good year... and that's McPherson. Not going to strike out a ton of guys, but won't walk guys either. He's a little bit older, but I'd bet attainable.

Victor Black, RHRP, AA. Black was a guy I thought the Twins would target when there were Pirates/Kubel rumors last year. He's battled injuries, but has been healthy and really good in 2012. He profiles as a guy who could work his way to the very back of the bullpen if he can keep the walks under control. He's a power arm who strikes a lot of guys out.

Zack Von Rosenberg, RHP, HiA. I've always been a fan of Von Rosenberg, even though he's been far from great. He was a high school guy that dropped because of signability concerns (was going to play baseball and punt at LSU), but took a big bonus and has been a disappointment. He had a rough spring training, just recently making his season debut. I think he could still develop... and this might be a chance to buy low.


Between McPherson, Black, and Von Rosenburg.... I'd go McPherson, but likely None of that threesome is going to amount to anything more than a back-end starter or middle reliever And thats likely, IMO, BESt CASE scenerio.

I'd strongly recommend targeting Heredia, but then again, the PIrates may have a higher fetch on him than Taillon at this point, and right there with Cole.
Top Twins prospects ? 1.Byron Buxton (OF-A+)
2.Miguel Sano (3B-AA) 3.Alex Meyer (SP-AA) 4. Kohl Stewart (SP-RK) 5. Nick Gordon (SS-RK) 6. J.O. Berrios (P-A) 7. Josmil Pinto (C-AAA) 8. Eddie Rosario (2B-AA) 9. L. Thorpe (SP-RK) 10. Travis Harrison (3B-A) 11.Kennys Vargas (1B-A+) 12. Trevor May (SP-AA) 13. Jorge Polanco (2B-A) 14. Max Kepler (OF-A) 15. Miguel Sulbaran (SP-A) Just Missed:P Zach Jones, SS Aderlin Mejia, P Stephen Gonsalves, C Stuart Turner.

#12 shs_59

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 11:09 PM

LHP Nick Kingham is another Pitts. option but he's struggling.....

Other Ideas- S.F. Giants....... SP Michael Kickham.... or even Erik Surkamp (less likely)
Top Twins prospects ? 1.Byron Buxton (OF-A+)
2.Miguel Sano (3B-AA) 3.Alex Meyer (SP-AA) 4. Kohl Stewart (SP-RK) 5. Nick Gordon (SS-RK) 6. J.O. Berrios (P-A) 7. Josmil Pinto (C-AAA) 8. Eddie Rosario (2B-AA) 9. L. Thorpe (SP-RK) 10. Travis Harrison (3B-A) 11.Kennys Vargas (1B-A+) 12. Trevor May (SP-AA) 13. Jorge Polanco (2B-A) 14. Max Kepler (OF-A) 15. Miguel Sulbaran (SP-A) Just Missed:P Zach Jones, SS Aderlin Mejia, P Stephen Gonsalves, C Stuart Turner.

#13 gunnarthor

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 11:16 PM

LHP Nick Kingham is another Pitts. option but he's struggling.....

Other Ideas- S.F. Giants....... SP Michael Kickham.... or even Erik Surkamp (less likely)


Surkamp hasn't pitched yet this year, he hurt his elbow and had a set back. For whatever reason, scouts don't like him as much as his stat line should indicate. Crafty, soft tossing lefty. Sickels wrote: "Doesn't throw hard buthas the statistical components of a power pitcher, excellent K/IPs and few hits, in the minors anyway. Was more tentative in the majors once the scouting reports got around and was hit hard. I think he can adjust and become a solid number four starter."

#14 glunn

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 11:24 PM

Willingham is a proven MLB player who is having a good season. I am not saying that the Twins should trade him, but if they do then it should be to a team that places a high value on getting a high quality right handed power hitter. If the Pirates don't crave him, then there will be other contenders who will.

#15 Nick Nelson

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 12:09 AM

Cole was the No. overall 1 pick last year and Taillon was the No. 2 pick the year before. I think you're setting your sights a bit high. There's no package the Twins could realistically produce that would pry either of those players away from Pittsburgh.

#16 MC

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 05:07 AM


The new CBA will shake up the trade market this year. Similar players in the last year of the contract should be "cheaper" to acquire. Teams will be desparate to trade them because they will not receive comp picks at the end of the year.
.


My take is you're going to see middle relievers go on the cheap this year relative to other years. So thinking we'll get much for the likes of a Burton or a Capps just seems really unlikely. Teams aren't going to be getting comp picks for relievers so their value has been become much more fungible. I'm thinking more deals like the Twins pulled off for Rauch... minor league filler. Thus I think it will be a buyers market, not a sellers for relief.

#17 IdahoPilgrim

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 06:42 AM

Cole was the No. overall 1 pick last year and Taillon was the No. 2 pick the year before. I think you're setting your sights a bit high. There's no package the Twins could realistically produce that would pry either of those players away from Pittsburgh.


I tend to agree with you, which is why I don't think Willingham or Morneau will be traded to Pittsburgh. I just don't want to see them traded for a handful of B-prospects who only have a 50% chance of making a big league roster someday, let alone starting regularly. I'm open to trading them, but not for spare parts - we need a genuine, bona-fide MLB prospect in return.

#18 gunnarthor

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 06:53 AM

Thus I think it will be a buyers market, not a sellers for relief.


You make a good point but on the other hand, with the added wildcard, more teams may be buyers which could expand the market. If, say the Reds are fighting off the Cards for the last playoff spot and they think they need to improve their bullpen, they'll probably end up overpaying someone (maybe us, maybe someone else). But someone will overpay for a bullpen arm this season. It always happens.

#19 Loosey

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 08:01 AM

Trading away everyday players for spare parts is not how you rebuild a team. Cole and Taillon are untouchable for the assets we are willing to trade. IF the Twins trade Morneau or Willingham or both it should be for extremely high upside talent that will be in the majors shortly. Also, if those two are traded I would fully expect the Twins to use the freed up salary on a high end free agent in the offseason. If they are traded and their freed up salary is not used, then I will believe this team is not playing to win and is going into cash hoarding mode and things will begin to look a lot like the mid to late 90's.

#20 Blackjack

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 08:14 AM

Cole was the No. overall 1 pick last year and Taillon was the No. 2 pick the year before. I think you're setting your sights a bit high. There's no package the Twins could realistically produce that would pry either of those players away from Pittsburgh.


The Twins traded Wilson Ramos, their number one prospect at the time, never say never, if teams think they can make a run at the playoffs, who knows what they'll trade??

#21 gunnarthor

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 08:16 AM

The Twins traded Wilson Ramos, their number one prospect at the time, never say never, if teams think they can make a run at the playoffs, who knows what they'll trade??


He means in the entire draft, not the teams prospect list. And Ramos was never the Twins #1 prospect.

#22 John Bonnes

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 03:54 PM

Is there going to be a better right-handed bat available at the trade deadline than Willingham? Quentin is the name I keep hearing, but if you include his contract and health, I'd choose Willingham. Especially if I was a mid-market team like the Pirates.

#23 Nick Nelson

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 05:19 PM

Is there going to be a better right-handed bat available at the trade deadline than Willingham? Quentin is the name I keep hearing, but if you include his contract and health, I'd choose Willingham. Especially if I was a mid-market team like the Pirates.

The Pirates had a chance to sign Willingham during the offseason just like everyone else. He drew very little interest. Are we really convinced that three months of good performance will suddenly have teams clamoring to give up a great prospect for his contract? Especially an NL team that won't be able to slide him to DH within the next couple years? (Frankly, he should probably be there already.)

Moreover, when have the Twins (or any team) ever traded a guy during the first year of a three-year deal when he was performing well? I can't think of any precedent for it.

#24 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 06:06 PM

Willingham should probably be shopped but I don't think teams will be falling over themselves to give up much for him nor do I think the Twins are that keen on trading him (and I can't blame them).

#25 John Bonnes

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 07:34 PM

The Pirates had a chance to sign Willingham during the offseason just like everyone else. He drew very little interest. Are we really convinced that three months of good performance will suddenly have teams clamoring to give up a great prospect for his contract? Especially an NL team that won't be able to slide him to DH within the next couple years? (Frankly, he should probably be there already.)

Moreover, when have the Twins (or any team) ever traded a guy during the first year of a three-year deal when he was performing well? I can't think of any precedent for it.


I keep hearing this argument - anyone could have signed Willingham - and I think it's flawed. It's interesting, to be sure, that a guy's value can change in 3 months, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. It's about supply and demand. Other teams can argue all they want about what they could have signed last December. The question remains: who is better (or at least comparable) and available right now? If the answer is nobody, then he's valuable to any number of teams, and it doesn't matter much what they should have done six months ago. When multiple teams want a singular guy, he's worth whatever the most desperate of them is willing to pay.

As for the 2nd part, I can't remember it either. I also can't rmember that many guys with 3 year deals period, and I can't remember any who were this valuable and where the team was clearly rebuilding. I'm not saying the Twins are in any hurry to move him. But unless they thing they're going to be competetive in the next couple years (and I think even they would tell you that's a longshot), he's not untouchable.

#26 shs_59

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 08:49 PM

I agree with John, i think its a bit flawed to think Willingham is much less likely to get traded this year than say any of the next 2 years at the Trade deadline.

Willingham simply put, this year should amount to getting one of the following:

1. B+ / A- prospect

2. 2 B / B- prospects
Top Twins prospects ? 1.Byron Buxton (OF-A+)
2.Miguel Sano (3B-AA) 3.Alex Meyer (SP-AA) 4. Kohl Stewart (SP-RK) 5. Nick Gordon (SS-RK) 6. J.O. Berrios (P-A) 7. Josmil Pinto (C-AAA) 8. Eddie Rosario (2B-AA) 9. L. Thorpe (SP-RK) 10. Travis Harrison (3B-A) 11.Kennys Vargas (1B-A+) 12. Trevor May (SP-AA) 13. Jorge Polanco (2B-A) 14. Max Kepler (OF-A) 15. Miguel Sulbaran (SP-A) Just Missed:P Zach Jones, SS Aderlin Mejia, P Stephen Gonsalves, C Stuart Turner.