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Maddon vs. Gardy: How much of an improvement would Maddon be?

joe maddon ron gardenhire manager search front office terry ryan
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#41 TheLeviathan

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Posted 28 October 2014 - 04:48 AM

Not sure I buy into the "playing soft" thing either..


Poor choice of words, I just meant we always seemed to play poorly and find ways to lose.
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#42 Circus Boy

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Posted 28 October 2014 - 05:35 AM

Interesting post, thanks.

 

What about playoffs?I don't mean to rehash bad memories for Twins fans, but Maddon equaled Gardy's career playoff victory total by his 8th career playoff game.13-17 overall isn't great, but it's way better than 6-21.

 

Obviously we aren't terribly close to returning to the playoffs, but it might be nice to know our manager isn't just a good "long haul" manager but can also hang in the October elimination tournaments, should the opportunity (hopefully) arise.

 

Here is another way to compare them: if my math is right, Gardy's teams are 25-38 against Maddon's head-to-head.Obviously the last 4 years have been terrible for the Twins, so that skews things toward the Rays (who only had 2 similarly bad years under Maddon), but even in 2006-2010 the Twins barely edged the Rays 18-16, despite the Rays having two 96+ loss seasons in that time.Gardy's success against Maddon is almost entirely based on Maddon's first year in Tampa (2006, when the Twins won the series 6-1) -- the Twins never won a season series with the Rays after that.

 

This. I like Maddon, too, because his success came in the East. If we played half our games in that division the past 13 years, we would have struggled, to say the least.


#43 spycake

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Posted 28 October 2014 - 07:40 AM

There were quite a few games where we had late leads, only to have our normally reliable bullpen (including our all-star closer) cough them up.

Don't know how true this really is.  Bullpen blowing late leads only happened a couple times, really -- Game 2 in 2009 and Game 4 in 2004.  (Game 2 in 2004 and Game 5 in the 2002 ALCS our bullpen entered trailing, and we later took a lead before immediately losing it in the following half-inning.)

 

Frankly, we didn't have hardly any leads to blow.

 

In all 3 of our series covering 2002-2003, after winning game 1, we didn't even have another lead until we were facing elimination (thank goodness for the Oakland playoff curse!).

 

In 2004, after winning Game 1, we only held a lead for 1 inning before the elimination game.

 

In 2009 and 2010, we only held a lead for 5 innings COMBINED, and 3 of those were in 2010 Game 1.  2009 Game 2 was the only one of those leads held beyond the 5th inning.

 

In 2006, we never had a lead at all.


#44 spycake

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Posted 28 October 2014 - 08:08 AM

Well, if you want to go there, the Twins opponents in the post season haven't been just good teams - they've generally been monsters.  Gardy's opponents averaged 101 wins each year, to the Twins 92.  That's a huge difference.  The only series Gardy lost where the Twins were the better/favored team was the 06 A's.  In contrast, Maddon had a 96 win team knocked out in the first round to a 90 win team and his playoff teams avg 94 wins while their opponents avg 93.  

First of all, I think your math is slightly wrong.  Twins average playoff opponent had 99 regular season wins from 2002-2010, to the Twins' 92.

 

Is 6-21 (and most recently 2-19, with a 12 game losing streak finish) an expected recorded, even for a 92 win team versus a 99 win team?

 

I am not laying all of this at the foot of Gardy, of course, but whether he's a clear playoff underperformer or a clear regular season overperformer, it renders a lot of the regular season analysis in this thread moot.

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#45 one_eyed_jack

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Posted 28 October 2014 - 08:27 PM

Don't know how true this really is.  Bullpen blowing late leads only happened a couple times, really -- Game 2 in 2009 and Game 4 in 2004.  (Game 2 in 2004 and Game 5 in the 2002 ALCS our bullpen entered trailing, and we later took a lead before immediately losing it in the following half-inning.)

 

Frankly, we didn't have hardly any leads to blow.

 

In all 3 of our series covering 2002-2003, after winning game 1, we didn't even have another lead until we were facing elimination (thank goodness for the Oakland playoff curse!).

 

In 2004, after winning Game 1, we only held a lead for 1 inning before the elimination game.

 

In 2009 and 2010, we only held a lead for 5 innings COMBINED, and 3 of those were in 2010 Game 1.  2009 Game 2 was the only one of those leads held beyond the 5th inning.

 

In 2006, we never had a lead at all.

 

 

 

Fair enough.The blown leads probably stick out in my mind more, but it would have been more accurate to say tied or leading.My point was that there were close games that could have gone either way.

 

In any case, I need to be done with this topic - too many painful memories.I think I'd rather re-hash the last 4 years of incompetence and irrelevance than dissect the Gardy-era playoff losses.I'd guess about 98% of the F-bombs I've dropped in my life were during those 21 playoff losses. 




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