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Article: Twins Promote Eight for September

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#61 mike wants wins

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 02:49 PM

Well, it didn't say we should be dead......it said we'd hurt ourselves badly if we tried to play baseball*

 

*it didn't really say that, for those of you that think I actually meant that

Lighten up Francis....

#62 CRArko

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 02:53 PM

Well, it didn't say we should be dead......it said we'd hurt ourselves badly if we tried to play baseball*
 
*it didn't really say that, for those of you that think I actually meant that


No prob. I wouldn't have been able to cut it as an athlete even in my twenties. Or more importantly, as a test pilot, which is what I really wanted to be as a kid.
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#63 mike wants wins

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 02:55 PM

I wanted to be a US Senator, then I spent time in DC on the Hill and in politics in MN.....and I didn't want to be an elected official anymore*

 

*plus, I'm sure I've now posted enough stupid stuff on the interwebs that I'd not be electable because I'm not goofy out there, just out there.....

Lighten up Francis....

#64 jokin

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 02:59 PM

I'm guessing this is a bit trolling, but why would they want to call up a top prospect to play part time, or to play multiple positions... makes so much more sense for him to play every day, in AA where he didn't dominate, at the position they hope he can take over in two years?

 

I"m not certain why you would assume something like that.  Calling up a top prospect in a losing season is really elementary for many teams- look at the Cubs. Further, Ryan has stated that Santana is now the long-term heir apparent at SS, which leaves Polanco possibly looking for a position to play two years from now.  

 

And since there is no other full-time playing option available right now, what's the objection to having Polanco up with the Twins, again?  Every day, every minute, that Polanco can train and play at this level can be of potential benefit to him for when he finally is ready for the full-time major league gig.

Edited by jokin, 02 September 2014 - 03:14 PM.

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#65 CRArko

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 03:00 PM

It's not like Jimmy Stewart; but we digress.

I hope Hicks and Pinto are up to play, and not just ride the pine.
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#66 jokin

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 03:12 PM

It has been stated many times over the years that a players top years of production is between age 28 and age 32.  Why are people complaining that we have a lot of players in this age range, both with the Twins and at Rochester ?

 

Because that statement has been demonstrably shown to be incorrect.  By age 28, the average player is already in their decline phase- and I would suspect even moreso- for the 15 players on the Rochester and New Britain rosters.   Look at what the 5 older players who were back and forth from Rochester have contributed to the Twins this season  (Fryer, Cola, Florimon, Johnson, Pino).

Edited by jokin, 02 September 2014 - 04:16 PM.


#67 diehardtwinsfan

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Posted 03 September 2014 - 06:27 AM

 

I"m not certain why you would assume something like that.  Calling up a top prospect in a losing season is really elementary for many teams- look at the Cubs. Further, Ryan has stated that Santana is now the long-term heir apparent at SS, which leaves Polanco possibly looking for a position to play two years from now.  
 
And since there is no other full-time playing option available right now, what's the objection to having Polanco up with the Twins, again?  Every day, every minute, that Polanco can train and play at this level can be of potential benefit to him for when he finally is ready for the full-time major league gig.


I guess I'm more with Seth here. Polanco didn't exactly dominate AA. Having him up wouldn't be bad, but at the same time, he's got to play. It isn't as though baseball adds more positions after September. There's still only 9 positions and a DH to fill, and the infield is already croweded. He'd end up accumulating service time and maybe getting a handful of at bats. Could he learn from it? Maybe. I'm not sure how much.

#68 diehardtwinsfan

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Posted 03 September 2014 - 06:31 AM

 

Because that statement has been demonstrably shown to be incorrect.  By age 28, the average player is already in their decline phase- and I would suspect even moreso- for the 15 players on the Rochester and New Britain rosters.   Look at what the 5 older players who were back and forth from Rochester have contributed to the Twins this season  (Fryer, Cola, Florimon, Johnson, Pino).

 
I'd recommend some caution with your use of absolutes. There are plenty of examples of players who peak in the 27-32 range instead of the 25-27 range, and I'm sure there are many factors to this. The big one I see is that physical peak doesn't necessarily correspond to a players development. While all the necessary physical capacity aspects of the game (strength, coordination, dexterity, etc) have peaked, many of the components that require a mental approach or additional physical tuning may not have. I don't see age as a reason to promote or deny a person. You bring them up when it looks like they can have success at this level.

#69 jokin

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Posted 03 September 2014 - 03:47 PM

 
 
I'd recommend some caution with your use of absolutes. There are plenty of examples of players who peak in the 27-32 range instead of the 25-27 range, and I'm sure there are many factors to this. The big one I see is that physical peak doesn't necessarily correspond to a players development. While all the necessary physical capacity aspects of the game (strength, coordination, dexterity, etc) have peaked, many of the components that require a mental approach or additional physical tuning may not have. I don't see age as a reason to promote or deny a person. You bring them up when it looks like they can have success at this level.

 

Just a clarification there is absolutely no use of absolutes in the phrase I specifically used, "By age 28, the average player is already in their decline phase"  Of course there are exceptions, but in the long-run, the studies show you increase your odds of success by having more younger players approaching their peak years at the ready, both in the pipeline, as well as producing at the major league level.


#70 jokin

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Posted 03 September 2014 - 04:13 PM

 

I guess I'm more with Seth here. Polanco didn't exactly dominate AA. Having him up wouldn't be bad, but at the same time, he's got to play. It isn't as though baseball adds more positions after September. There's still only 9 positions and a DH to fill, and the infield is already croweded. He'd end up accumulating service time and maybe getting a handful of at bats. Could he learn from it? Maybe. I'm not sure how much.

 

No one has said he dominated AA, I think it's general consensus in the Twins FO, based on his placement on the 40-man roster and his previous call-up, that Polanco's a comer in the Twins system.  And I already gave a potential solution to your legitimate concern about available positions and playing time  You ask if he could learn from a September call-up?.  In return, I ask, will he learn any more from no call-up at all? And has it now come to this...? 27 days of service time in September, or even cut that in half to 14, and send him to instructionals the last 2 weeks of September, is that really the level of miserliness that a team going on four 90+ loss seasons should be concerned about?


#71 old nurse

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Posted 03 September 2014 - 04:27 PM

Polanco would more than likely be on a reserve list for a Dominican team thus not eligible for AFL. I fail to see how sitting on the bench behind Santana would help him. Let him have a month off. He will get time to play in the winter league. The Twins would hope at SS rather than 2b.


#72 jokin

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Posted 03 September 2014 - 05:46 PM

Polanco would more than likely be on a reserve list for a Dominican team thus not eligible for AFL. I fail to see how sitting on the bench behind Santana would help him. Let him have a month off. He will get time to play in the winter league. The Twins would hope at SS rather than 2b.

Three problems with this,

 

1) I don't think he gets a lot of say about where he plays in the DWL.  

 

2) Ryan has publicly committed in a lukewarm manner to Santana for the intermediate term at SS, which leaves Polanco looking for a place to play should that come to fruition- as I proscribed, frequent late-inning assignments at 2nd, 3rd and SS would mean he wouldn't need to be sitting on the bench.

 

3) Unless I'm completely off, and provided he isn't physically spent (certainly a possibility), isn't he likely scheduled for instructionals?, which means he's not getting this month off, so he might as well be getting some major league reps, if that's the case.


#73 The Wise One

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Posted 03 September 2014 - 10:52 PM

Polanco isn't going to Florida

Edited by The Wise One, 03 September 2014 - 10:59 PM.


#74 jokin

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Posted 03 September 2014 - 11:09 PM

Polanco isn't going to Florida

 

Nope.  And Bernier got 3 of his innings and 2 of his PAs tonight against Chicago.


#75 The Wise One

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Posted 03 September 2014 - 11:24 PM

TEOLAWKI. Bernier was in a game.


#76 ashburyjohn

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 02:46 PM

Are coaches ever called up for September?  Because I'd like to see what Rochester's pitching coach could do. :)


#77 Thegrin

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 05:10 PM

LOL  TEOLAWKI = The End of Life as We Know It

 

A search can find out almost anything :)

Edited by Thegrin, 04 September 2014 - 05:11 PM.


#78 jokin

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 05:53 PM

LOL  TEOLAWKI = The End of Life as We Know It

 

A search can find out almost anything :)

 

Yeah, building on the future with a 34-year-old minor league journeyman on the major league roster isn't the end of the world, but the term's usage fails badly to explain away why he's involved in taking valuable playing time for a team on a running streak of 4 straight season of 90+ losses.


#79 ashburyjohn

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 06:01 PM

 taking valuable playing time

When Bernier came into the game the score was already 10-3 and he came in to face a journeyman reliever having a bad season.  Doug's going to play some innings, and these were not ones that would be terribly indicative of anything or particularly educational had Santana played them.  Relative to the start Nunez is getting tonight, this one doesn't register, for me.


#80 JB_Iowa

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 07:13 PM

Are coaches ever called up for September?  Because I'd like to see what Rochester's pitching coach could do. :)

 

Actually they do call up coaches for September but in this case, I think they called up the Red Wings hitting coach with plans t add Gene Glynn later.

 

http://www.1500espn....r_callups090114


#81 USAFChief

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 07:22 PM

When Bernier came into the game the score was already 10-3 and he came in to face a journeyman reliever having a bad season.  Doug's going to play some innings, and these were not ones that would be terribly indicative of anything or particularly educational had Santana played them.  Relative to the start Nunez is getting tonight, this one doesn't register, for me.

Gotta disagree, Ash.  If big league playing time and exposure is valuable (for May, or anyone else), it's valuable no matter the situation.

 

And giving it to Bernier just makes no sense to me.

 

I'm with ya on Nunez though.

Go Twins!


#82 jokin

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 08:15 PM

you're jokin right ?  Of course you are.  :)

 

 

Nope, not on this one.  Seriously.  A team digging out of a 290+ loss deficit for 3 seasons- going on 4 years now at a similar pace- of miasmic ineptitude, really doesn't allow a team to indulge in rewarding all the playing time that's been allotted this year to guys who clearly won't be part of the solution, and many of whom are now out of baseball altogether, or should be soon. 

Edited by jokin, 04 September 2014 - 08:38 PM.


#83 ashburyjohn

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 10:00 PM

Actually they do call up coaches for September but in this case, I think they called up the Red Wings hitting coach with plans t add Gene Glynn later.

 

http://www.1500espn....r_callups090114

I missed that news item, and/or didn't recall such things in the past.  Good to hear.

 

With all the extra players, you need the extra babysitters too. :)


#84 Rosterman

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 10:12 PM

A man on the 40-man is getting a decent salary. Yes, Polance should be sitting on the bench. He did what the Twins wanted him to do in an earlier call-up.

 

Bernier resigned with the twins, did solid at Rochester, and is someone the Twins may want to keep involved in the organization. In the distance past always give some guys some MLB time for pension and rewards of dollars for loyalty to an organization. In reality, he is not keeping anyone OFF the roster. he won't be kept on the roster later.

 

I always wondered why the Twins didn't give Toby Gardenhire a cup of September coffee a few years ago, especially when he was a third-string catcher. Yes, I know he was the manager's son, but we can overlook some nepotism in September.

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#85 stringer bell

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 10:23 PM

The only thing bringing up Polanco does is add service time, and that's not a good thing for the team.  He's the fourth best shortstop and they sure don't need more than three.  Let him master AA at least before he's promoted. 


#86 jokin

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 11:22 PM

The only thing bringing up Polanco does is add service time, and that's not a good thing for the team.  He's the fourth best shortstop and they sure don't need more than three.  Let him master AA at least before he's promoted. 

 

27 days at most, that definitely shouldn't be the make or break decision on a team en route to another 90+ loss season.   I'm not calling for Polanco's immediate promotion- just a continued developmental exercise, as he has clearly shown in his call-ups that he has the moxy to quickly adapt to the highest level, and the willingness to continue the learning process. The SSs on this team have proven to be highly interchangeable anyways, and as in the case of Santana, it might be necessary, maybe likely, to call on one or more of them to play another position.  That brings up a potential scenario where Polanco possibly duplicates in 2015 what Santana did this year, and is called up around the ASG to fill in at another position should Santana claim the SS spot, prove useful as a replacement at 3rd Base should Plouffe sustain injury or become trade bait,  and always, of course, the possibility of a continued train wreck with the other CF contenders/pretenders.  As we've seen the last three nights, there's no reason that Polanco couldn't have been inserted into late game situations, as others have, and benefited from the experience.


#87 old nurse

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Posted 05 September 2014 - 12:36 AM

27 days at most, that definitely shouldn't be the make or break decision on a team en route to another 90+ loss season. 

Very true, so why the angst over Bernier not Polanco. Advanced baseball skills are not a skill that is learned by watching.. Sanatana should be getting the reps a ss, Hicks in the OF. Seth called it troling, I call it making a mountain out of nothing. 


#88 jokin

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Posted 05 September 2014 - 01:23 AM

Very true, so why the angst over Bernier not Polanco. Advanced baseball skills are not a skill that is learned by watching.. Sanatana should be getting the reps a ss, Hicks in the OF. Seth called it troling, I call it making a mountain out of nothing.

 
 
You call it a mountain out of nothing..... And I call it maximizing the 162 game schedule to continually try to accomplish something at improving the team for the long run, or why go through the pretense of calling anyone up in September?.... getting Polanco 27 days worth of major league atmosphere and a series of late-inning valuable reps at at least 3 different positions for someone whom the Twins regard as a prized prospect- over a minor league journeyman- seems pretty elementary to me. And don't get me wrong, Bernier earned his call-up, but with a reward paid off primarily by a comfortable seat in the dugout.  Polanco, by stark contrast, has shown the aptitude to be a part of the long-term solution- and can directly benefit from continuing his Twins matriculation at the highest level available, and there's little doubt, he possibly could contribute as early as some time next season (and perhaps not at SS).
Santana and Vargas now look like they can be part of the solution, why not give Polanco every opportunity to continue his progression and join them as soon as possible?

#89 stringer bell

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Posted 05 September 2014 - 04:19 AM

OK, I'm going there.  Eight plate appearances.  Those of you advocating Polanco's recall and competing for a position on the team next year are putting way too much emphasis on eight plate appearances.  I believe Eric Fryer had three hits in his first eight plate appearances this year.  Does that make him a legitimate prospect?  No.  Some guys, from Aaron Hicks to Willie Mays go 0-8, does that make them busts? Again, no.  Eight plate appearances is simply too small a sample to matter.  Polanco, at 20 years old, competed well in High A ball.  He wasn't dominant, but he competed well.  He hit .281, with a .780 OPS and got a deserved promotion to AA.  At New Britain, he was satisfactory, no more, no less.  The batting average was OK (.281), but he only had seven extra-base hits and nine walks in a quarter season.  Defensively, he's probably not ready, if errors made are any gauge of defensive performance. 

 

If Polanco shows the same improvement in 2015, it will make considerably more sense for him to get a late-season look.  He then might really be on the cusp of staying in the big leagues, even if he doesn't get a single AAA plate appearance.  We know that at 23, Danny Santana was ready offensively.  It looks like Kennys Vargas was ready from his 24th birthday on.  We also know that at 23 and 24, first round draft choice Aaron Hicks wasn't ready. 

 

I certainly haven't seen enough of Polanco to make blanket statements, but I'm sure the Twins get reports from his managers and coaches.  If he were truly ready for major league baseball, even a September audition, somebody would have made the case for him.  I doubt that has happened.

Edited by stringer bell, 05 September 2014 - 04:20 AM.

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