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A Suggestion by Souhan

plouffe escobar hicks santana trades
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#1 TheLeviathan

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 09:30 PM

Jim Souhan posted four moves he'd make right now if he was in charge.  What say you to each?

 

I give the first three (especially 1 and 3) my full support.  I'm not on board with #4, not until spring next year at the soonest.


#2 stringer bell

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 09:39 PM

Jim Souhan has suggested some moves the Twins should make to go forward in 2015. While I don't agree with many of them, it is interesting to see other possibilities put out there.

http://www.startribu.../273336881.html

I do know that Souhan has not been a fan of Plouffe for quite awhile. Maybe he is Halsey! I'm not willing to take away Escobar's versatility and have a single digit home run guy playing third. Finally, I am not convinced that Santana will be able to play defense well enough at short. The other thing is that either Aaron Hicks is injured or he can't beat out the likes of Eric Farris, Chris Rahl, and Chris Herrmann.
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#3 The Wise One

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 01:09 AM

Plouffe as an LF.  When they tried him in right he did not particularly shine there, What would make him a LF? Not his current batting. WOBA comparisons to current LF says he is dreadful by comparison. Trade bait? League average 3b by WAR, below average by WOBA. What team is on the cusp of contention with a horrible 3b? So where is the gain in the Twins to have a different stopgap 3b which may be more difficult to find than a LF?  It would sure be a nice idea to know why Souhan thinks it would make the Twins better with his proposal. Headley, a better 3b than Plouffe did not net the Padres much. Trade bait for a high upside low minor leaguer. Play a position that he has not played before and no indication of why Plouffe would be good there.

Santana as a SS soon, Hicks as the MLB starting CF. September will be here.

Souhan is losing it as a journalist.


#4 kab21

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 04:21 AM

Yes

No

No

?

 

Plouffe is really not that bad and I think once we see Sano playing at 3B we will be asking to move him to a spot he can do less damage.  And the Twins don't have anyone else decent in the minors to play 3B in the near future.  Escobar?  That probably turns out to be as great of an idea as depending on Punto as a 3Bman after he bailed them out for a season.

 

Why does everyone need to give Hicks another chance once he has had a glimmer of success in the minors?  We have played this game twice and I really hope that a solid stopgap is brought in to play CF next season and hicks is in AAA possibly taking CF away in 2 months.


#5 Platoon

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 05:55 AM

I mostly agree for some of these reasons..... What better time to bring up Hicksie than now? Wait till going north next year, based on spring training vs hitting off of playoff bound pitching? That's been done before!
That leaves one a chance to give Santanna some evaluation at short. A playoff bound team does not have him in CF or EE as a shortstop. But it would be great to have EE as a utility player. So for the mean time he moves to third, which means Plouffie has to go somewhere. Try him in left this fall, what can happen? Lose 90 games? Shafer has grown on me, (god I hate to type that). But the sample is small, and for some reason I don't trust him. But he has done nothing not to deserve a continued look. He is definitely 4th OF material, and great to have as a pinch runner. Lastly, Souhan did not address one of the other changes to consider! Changing the field staff. And that would have to include some personnel considerations to reflect the incoming number of Latin players.

#6 stringer bell

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 06:11 AM

The idea of trading Plouffe and putting Escobar on third really bothers me unless Sano were to be called up before Memorial Day.  That would leave the Twins with low-power regulars at third, first, catcher, and probably two outfield positions.  I like the idea of having long ball potential sprinkled throughout the lineup and this plan would do exactly the opposite. 

 

I remember listening to Souhan on the radio over a year ago and at that point he was calling for Plouffe to be run out of town.  So it comes as no surprise that he still is not a fan of the Twins' third baseman.  I think he has evolved into a pretty good player and I do think if he started somewhere between 70 and 75% of the games in left after Sano arrives, that his hitting and fielding would be satisfactory.  Long term, though, I would like to see big-time range in at least two of the Twins three regular outfielders.  We've seen poor range tolerated for most of the years since the Twins had the "soul patrol" outfield. 

 

Hicks is hitting .246 at Rochester (22 games) with a .658 OPS.  I think he has the tools to be pretty good, but maybe he just can't hit.  Certainly, the Twins have to have a backup plan beyond Hicks for 2015. 

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#7 TheLeviathan

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 06:31 AM

Well, for the record - Souhan edited his story after news of Meyer being pulled got out.  Originally 3 was calling up Meyer immediately and 4 was calling up Hicks as well.

 

For me, 1 needs to happen.  If Santana's bat sticks that would be fantastic to have at SS and he should be playing his natural position.  The bungling of CF has forced him to SS, but we need to get him going where he will be long term and not play him somewhere as a patch.

 

2.  I can take it or leave it.  Basically it transforms Plouffe/Escobar into utility players, which is probably what they both ultimately end up as.

 

3.  kab hit this one on the head.  Hicks needs to stay down until he's had sustained dominance in AAA.


#8 diehardtwinsfan

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 06:48 AM

1 - Yes
2 - No (though maybe in a year depending on other things)
3 - Yes after playoffs.

#9 Sconnie

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 07:08 AM

Yes
No
No
?
 
Plouffe is really not that bad and I think once we see Sano playing at 3B we will be asking to move him to a spot he can do less damage.  And the Twins don't have anyone else decent in the minors to play 3B in the near future.  Escobar?  That probably turns out to be as great of an idea as depending on Punto as a 3Bman after he bailed them out for a season.
 
Why does everyone need to give Hicks another chance once he has had a glimmer of success in the minors?  We have played this game twice and I really hope that a solid stopgap is brought in to play CF next season and hicks is in AAA possibly taking CF away in 2 months.

I'm with you 100%, except for Hicks.

I'd like to give Hicks the September call up so Santana can play SS. If Hicks fails, you know you need a stopgap for 2015. If he succeeds, you are set for CF in 2015 and 4th outfield when Buxton arrives.

By Hicks succeeding in September, I mean respectable league average batting average with good on-base percentage and not looking lost in every facet of the game. That would be a huge success for Hicks and the coaching staff.
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#10 kab21

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 07:20 AM

Hicks doesn't need to be dominant to come back up but he's been getting jerked up and down for the last two years.  I think the next time he comes up it will be his last chance.  Hicks's success in September won't tell us anything for next year.  If anything it sets the team up to start with him in CF for a 3rd year.

 

Schafer can play CF so Santana can move to SS for September.

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#11 TheLeviathan

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 07:33 AM

Hicks doesn't need to be dominant to come back up 

 

I should clarify, dominant may not have been the best word choice.  He needs to demonstrate clearly that he's ready.  A .240 BA and sub .700 OPS at AAA isn't doing that.

 

Just play Schafer in CF and Parms in LF for the last month and put Santana where he belongs.

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#12 tobi0040

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 07:42 AM

I would do all but trading Plouffe. I am not sold on Escobar and I think that is a risk if Sano does not stick at 3B,  


#13 Kwak

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 09:04 AM

Santana should be the SS--but won't be this September.   Santana was declared not ready (as a SS), Escobar is succeeding (modestly) at SS, and Escobar is the prize received for trading Liriano.  But maybe the silver tongues can spin this position change to the public.

 

Plouffe:  an off-season trade would net the best return.    We saw enough of him in the OF (yikes!), before his fortutitious move to 3B, to judge his OF "skill".

 

A combination of Schafer/Hicks will suffice for now and next season.  If Santana may only play in the OF--well, LF is as good of a field as CF.  The OF doesn't appear to be Santana's best location.


#14 Kirby_waved_at_me

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 09:16 AM

I'm very skeptical about Plouffe being labeled by fans and media as a possible utility IF/OF, or even a regular LF.

 

Wouldn't he have seen some time there already this year if anyone in the Twins management team felt he could play there? They had Eduardo Escobar and JASON BARTLETT playing left field this season . . . 

 

I feel like Plouffe would have already been out there this year (or last year? even once?) if the coaches felt he was a viable option out there.

 

He hasn't been in the outfield since 2012, I don't think moving him back there is something the team has considered.


#15 Hosken Bombo Disco

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 09:23 AM

Well, for the record - Souhan edited his story after news of Meyer being pulled got out.  Originally 3 was calling up Meyer immediately and 4 was calling up Hicks as well.

Ah.. Got it. Was trying to figure out what "Call up ... never mind" meant, since there was no note that the original Strib story had been edited (shoddy journalism by the way).

Much in agreement with stringer on Plouffe. Plouffe has become maybe the second best 3B in the division.

I'm also not sure why Souhan doesn't mention Schafer as a center field replacement in his Santana to SS suggestion or as competition in CF with Hicks.
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#16 Halsey Hall

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 09:39 AM

I don't usually agree with Souhan, however;

1. Get Santana to ss. That's where he's going to end up, and he and Dozier will be playing together for a long time. Get them together now, not spring.

2. A no brainer, trade Plouffe. I disagree with playing him in left though. Why expose another weakness he has when there's no reason to. Take what we can get in a trade and be done with him. Amen.
[size=2]he's gotta go[/size]

#17 jokin

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 12:19 PM

Trade bait? League average 3b by WAR, below average by WOBA. What team is on the cusp of contention with a horrible 3b? 

 

Stat line averages for MLB 3rd Basemen:

 

OPS .714 wOBA .316 wRC+ 100 ISO .139  fWAR 2.29

 

vs. Plouffe:

 

OPS .739 wOBA .324 wRC+ 106 ISO .169 fWAR 2.9

 

As the stats above indicate,  Plouffe has had a slightly better year than the average for 3rd Base, and his defensive play has improved based on the metrics.  I'm definitely not Plouffie's biggest fan, but I don't see "horrible" in these numbers.  He certainly wouldn't generate a Top 100 prospect in trade, but "slightly above league average" still has some value.

Edited by jokin, 31 August 2014 - 12:33 PM.

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#18 stringer bell

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 12:30 PM

I'm very skeptical about Plouffe being labeled by fans and media as a possible utility IF/OF, or even a regular LF.
 
Wouldn't he have seen some time there already this year if anyone in the Twins management team felt he could play there? They had Eduardo Escobar and JASON BARTLETT playing left field this season . . . 
 
I feel like Plouffe would have already been out there this year (or last year? even once?) if the coaches felt he was a viable option out there.
 
He hasn't been in the outfield since 2012, I don't think moving him back there is something the team has considered.

The way Gardy does things is that you don't move your regulars. That went for outfield and infield. Escobar was (and probably still is) considered a utility guy, as was Bartlett.

#19 ashburyjohn

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 12:36 PM

On #2, Souhan covered my objection by saying don't just give Plouffe away.  And while we'd (mostly) all approve of a Span-Meyer kind of deal if offered for Plouffe, I doubt that a league-average 3b draws nearly the trade value of a league-average cf.  So if all you're offered for Plouffe is, say one Escobar- or Pressly-caliber prospect, you're nearly giving him away, and we're back to square one.  But if Ryan can work some trade magic, say Plouffe plus Pressly for someone with real promise, downgrading to Escobar at third for a while is OK with me.


#20 Platoon

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 12:38 PM

Looks like Gardy read Soo's column! He moved EE off short!!! Well, maybe he only read the first half, since he has Nunez there! Maybe the early edition of the Trib in Baltimore did not include the whole column??

#21 jokin

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 12:55 PM

 I doubt that a(................) league-average 3b draws nearly the trade value of a league-average cf. 

"slightly above" (see post # 17) ;)

 

But yep, no way do you get a Meyer-level potential trade without throwing something else fairly significant into the pot (would Pressly even be enough?).


#22 birdwatcher

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 02:06 PM

No, no, no. Not sure why people are so hot to trot to move Santana out of CF. My eyeballs are telling me he's not too shabby out there in CF. I'm keeping Santana in CF until I have a better option, which might not be until Buxton is ready. Escobar's not too shabby at SS, so moving Santana doesn't fix a problem at SS, but instead maybe creates a problem in the outfield, depending upon what other moves Ryan makes. As for Hicks, I'm ambivalent about his call up, frankly. Rochester is in the throes of a chase for the wild card, and yet Hicks is on Glynn's bench? Is anyone convinced that Hicks improves things as an alternative in CF and LF to Schaffer and Santana, defensively or offensively? The timing for trading Plouffsie is bad. Why not wait until Sano is in place?

Edited by birdwatcher, 31 August 2014 - 02:08 PM.


#23 TheLeviathan

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 02:25 PM

No, no, no. Not sure why people are so hot to trot to move Santana out of CF. My eyeballs are telling me he's not too shabby out there in CF. I'm keeping Santana in CF until I have a better option, which might not be until Buxton is ready. Escobar's not too shabby at SS, so moving Santana doesn't fix a problem at SS, but instead maybe creates a problem in the outfield, depending upon what other moves Ryan makes. As for Hicks, I'm ambivalent about his call up, frankly. Rochester is in the throes of a chase for the wild card, and yet Hicks is on Glynn's bench? Is anyone convinced that Hicks improves things as an alternative in CF and LF to Schaffer and Santana, defensively or offensively? The timing for trading Plouffsie is bad. Why not wait until Sano is in place?

 

The problem exists in the OF regardless of whether Santana is out there or not.  Buxton is this team's future CF, or at least that's the assumption it needs to operate under.

 

So then the question is does Santana help this team more as a COF or a SS?  And to me, that answer is clearly SS.  

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#24 CRArko

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 02:44 PM

Don't forget to call up Pinto.
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Go dark.

#25 drjim

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 02:55 PM

"slightly above" (see post # 17) ;)

But yep, no way do you get a Meyer-level potential trade without throwing something else fairly significant into the pot (would Pressly even be enough?).


Duensing. The answer is always Duensing.
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Papers...business papers.

#26 Thrylos

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 03:05 PM

Jim Souhan posted four moves he'd make right now if he was in charge.  What say you to each?

 

I give the first three (especially 1 and 3) my full support.  I'm not on board with #4, not until spring next year at the soonest

 


Let's see what those moves are:

 

1. Take the SS that has made the Twins have the second highest WAR in the position and bench him in favor of a guy who projects to be a bench guy for a competing team

 

2. Trade the guy with the second highest fWAR in the team

 

3. Call up Hicks (instead of playing SS's and Clete's second coming at CF)

 

4. That was retracted and was just there to be there so it does not count.

 

 

So one out of 3 ain't bad (for Souhan)

Edited by Thrylos, 31 August 2014 - 03:06 PM.

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#27 WLFINN

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 03:27 PM

Is Pressly the new Duensing??????


#28 Sconnie

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 04:53 PM

Hicks doesn't need to be dominant to come back up but he's been getting jerked up and down for the last two years.  I think the next time he comes up it will be his last chance.  Hicks's success in September won't tell us anything for next year.  If anything it sets the team up to start with him in CF for a 3rd year.
 
Schafer can play CF so Santana can move to SS for September.

You are right, the next time Hicks is up, it will be his last, but September can be as telling, if not more so, than the average prospect because Hicks isn't really a prospect anymore. Frankly, if he's not ready for 2015, he won't get a shot as the regular CF. You might as well know where you stand with him for 2015 in October 2014.

If Schafer can play CF, why isn't he?

#29 Major Leauge Ready

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 05:38 PM

Escobar has been a pleasant surprise and we would be just fine if he remains are SS.  However, Santana has more offensive and defensive upside than Escobar.  What better time to test Santana at SS than right now?  Let's see what the young an can do there the rest of the season. 

 

Plouffe has been pretty decent this year and he is a god placeholder until Sano arrives.  Now, if TR can get a good return that still probably makes sense in the long-run because he was quite poor defensively in the OF and his bat does not profile well as a COF.   Moving him is part of the building process but there is no need unless the return warrants doing it sooner than later.

 

Not sure what to think about Hicks. The better option right now IMO is to audition Schafer in CF.  It sure would be nice to be on the right side of a turnaround story.


#30 snepp

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 05:55 PM

Plouffe as an LF.  When they tried him in right he did not particularly shine there, What would make him a LF? Not his current batting. WOBA comparisons to current LF says he is dreadful by comparison. Trade bait? League average 3b by WAR, below average by WOBA.

 

I was going to nitpick this, but jokin already sufficiently debunked the majority of it. One thing he didn't specifically include, his bat vs left fielders.

 

Major league left fielders: .322 wOBA

 

Plouffe: .329 wOBA

 

Certainly not "dreadful" by comparison.

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