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Terry Ryan scheduled to see Alex Meyer pitch for the first time next Monday

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#61 DocBauer

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 09:18 PM

A thought to share and debate.

In this particular thread, and others over the past month or so, I've read several comments regarding the Twins "promotion philosophy", if one truly exists. There has been a sentiment that the Twins are more aggresive in promoting position players vs pitchers. And it think it's worth looking at. Now, to be fair, I'm discounting the early 80's when the team seemed to virtually promote an entire team from the A and AA ranks.

Again, to be fair, I'm not taking the time to research year after year after year. I know the Twins did promote both Radke and Erickson from AA in the 90's. I believe Milton was also, my memory can't recall if he saw any AAA time right now.

I would argue that May, factoring in time missed due to injury, has actually been promoted quickly after what equates to about a half season of AAA experience. I could add Thielbar and Tonkin as well, one of which has stuck, one of which hasn't as of yet, after limited AAA experience. In other words, I'm not really sure the Twins are truly that conservative with promoting pitching prospects, just maybe, more conservative than anxious fans want them to be.

While not ML promotions, one could argue that promotions of top prospects such as Berrios, Thorpe and even Duffy would indicate just the opposite of a conservative approach. Hu, Gonsalves and even Stewart might be mentioned as well considering their ages.

For position players, Hicks, Arcia, Pinto, Santana and Vargas are examples of quick promotions the past couple of years. You could include Revere a couple years ago as another example.

I'm not sure there truly is an organizational difference in treatment of pitchers vs position players in regard to promotion. Perhaps more thorough research could settle this idea. Any volunteers? LOL

But let's assume, for a moment, that the perception shared by some is accurate and would prove to be true with additional research. The question then becomes why?

Is there a fear of failure for pitchers? Do they feel position players, used to bad days and bad stretches, but allowed to play every day and rebound, finding success in this manor is different and easier to coach and work with than a pitcher who throws only every 5th day, or intermittently from the bullpen?

Again, I'm not convinced there is some double standard. But it might be worth discussing.
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#62 PseudoSABR

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 09:58 PM

Wow.  Exactly no one has said anything close to what you're intimating.

What kind of player performance from May or Gibson (or whomever) would show (or would have shown) that the Twins acted deftly in their handling of these specific pitchers? What set of facts would have to emerge to demonstrate that these pitchers indeed needed more time to develop than the 'preferred' development schedule.  


#63 PseudoSABR

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 10:02 PM

In this particular thread, and others over the past month or so, I've read several comments regarding the Twins "promotion philosophy", if one truly exists. 

As you illuminate, their philosophy is far less contingent on throw-back beliefs or steadfastly-held universal schedules; rather it seems case by case, except when injury is involved where they do slow down the promotion schedule.  

 

It would be an interesting exercise for some posters in this thread to finish the sentence "I believe the Twins philosophy is....".  


#64 TheLeviathan

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 10:28 PM

It's not that there is a double standard or that the Twins are doing something wrong, but in recent years it seems hitters are more aggressively going from AA to the big leagues.

There are a multitude of reasons for this and many quite justifiable and commendable. We just don't know why because all we hear are cliches that are often more puzzling than illuminating. And it's not that they need to share specifics for me, just be very general ("there are concerns in his approach you wouldn't find in a box score") as opposed to "consistency" or other demonstrably silly justifications.

#65 PseudoSABR

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 12:11 AM

There are a multitude of reasons for this and many quite justifiable and commendable. We just don't know why because all we hear are cliches that are often more puzzling than illuminating. And it's not that they need to share specifics for me, just be very general ("there are concerns in his approach you wouldn't find in a box score") as opposed to "consistency" or other demonstrably silly justifications.

Do other teams give more substantive reasons for their transactions?  

 

As an aside, I haven't seen mentioned.  Beyond a few minor set backs, prospect pitchers A-ball and above have been remarkably healthy.  As much as impending success (or lack there of) has to do with slow promotion, the fragility of young arms is probably an equal consideration.


#66 TheLeviathan

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 05:22 AM

Do other teams give more substantive reasons for their transactions? .


I have no idea. The problem isn't how substantive the reasons are, but how demonstrably false they seem to be.

#67 Mr. Brooks

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 02:33 PM

Absolutely correct... Service Clock, arbitration, free agency, they're all out the door at this point.

 

This is not entirely true. 

By not calling him up at all this year, they can begin to push the service clock back into next year, getting them yet another year of team control. 

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#68 jokin

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 02:48 PM

This is not entirely true. 

By not calling him up at all this year, they can begin to push the service clock back into next year, getting them yet another year of team control. 

 

Bingo, Mr Brooks, the temptation to play this newest family game of delay-cliche's (Fun for Twins Fans of All Ages!) for the best starting pitcher prospects, "Consistency", oops, "Prepared"-nessTM, I guess, can now easily extend past the first months and even to the next Super 2 cutoff date in 2015.

 

Joyous, fact-based and tireless Twins fan for 40+ years, who unfortunately has been characterized as-

 

"forcing Twins fans to endure more bitter, baseless, and tiresome cheap shots about the Twins FO."


#69 old nurse

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 05:09 PM

This is not entirely true. 

By not calling him up at all this year, they can begin to push the service clock back into next year, getting them yet another year of team control. 

To put it politely, you may think that if you like. I do not recall players that the Twins have held back to avoid arbitration. I would cynically say someone out there will say they held bag Vargas for arb. The Twins do have a little caution in promoting pitchers but they generally go with the best player possible. Generally. not always


#70 jokin

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 05:36 PM

To put it politely, you may think that if you like. I do not recall players that the Twins have held back to avoid arbitration. I would cynically say someone out there will say they held bag Vargas for arb. The Twins do have a little caution in promoting pitchers but they generally go with the best player possible. Generally. not always

Except that they did nothing of the sort in last three cases for promoting the best pitcher possible over the last 2 seasons.

 

On the Vargas question, they had many chances to call up Vargas after the player control date, but before the Super 2 date, oft-times when they were clearly short a bat, but they opted instead for the extra pitcher, third catcher or finally, Kendrys Morales.  (I can't fault them on the Polanco call-up, they clearly needed an extra infielder in that case).

 

Joyous, fact-based and tireless Twins fan for 40+ years, who unfortunately has been characterized as-

 

"forcing Twins fans to endure more bitter, baseless, and tiresome cheap shots about the Twins FO."


#71 USAFChief

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 09:33 PM

To put it politely, you may think that if you like. I do not recall players that the Twins have held back to avoid arbitration. I would cynically say someone out there will say they held bag Vargas for arb. The Twins do have a little caution in promoting pitchers but they generally go with the best player possible. Generally. not always


Glen Perkins says hi.

I am not the paranoid you're looking for.


#72 Shane Wahl

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 11:17 PM

Meyer should have replaced Burton in the bullpen a few weeks ago.


#73 drjim

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 12:17 PM

Meyer should have replaced Burton in the bullpen a few weeks ago.

 

No he shouldn't have. There is certainly a good argument that he should be in the rotation right now for the Twins, but if he is going to be a starter in the future he needs to work on turning lineups over, not coming in and winging it for a handful of batters. That said, Meyer should be up in September when he nears his innings cap to get his taste, but two extra weeks of bullpen wouldn't be as valuable as turning lineups over for a few more starts.

 

Burton won't be back next season and if the Twins were contending this move would have happened, but the Twins certainly have the luxury of being patient. 

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#74 Mike Sixel

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 12:25 PM

Or, they could do what the Cards do, and start starters in the pen sometimes (or what the Twins did with Santana). 

 

Either way, he should have been up here already.......imo.

I don't know, it is a site to discuss sports, not airline safety.....maybe we should take it less seriously?


#75 drjim

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 01:42 PM

Or, they could do what the Cards do, and start starters in the pen sometimes (or what the Twins did with Santana). 

 

Either way, he should have been up here already.......imo.

 

Not just the Cards, teams have been doing this for decades. Even the Twins - also with Liriano, Baker and others. Meyer is a classic guy to this with, and I still think it happens.

Papers...business papers.

#76 spycake

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 02:13 PM

Not just the Cards, teams have been doing this for decades. Even the Twins - also with Liriano, Baker and others. Meyer is a classic guy to this with, and I still think it happens.


Baker was never used out of the bullpen regularly. I seem to think Liriano was the last Twins pitching prospect to get that treatment, and Santana before him. (To be fair, they haven't had a lot of pitching prospects in the last 5 years, and they certainly have not had a full rotation during that time either!)

#77 adjacent

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 02:41 PM

Baker was never used out of the bullpen regularly. I seem to think Liriano was the last Twins pitching prospect to get that treatment, and Santana before him. (To be fair, they haven't had a lot of pitching prospects in the last 5 years, and they certainly have not had a full rotation during that time either!)

Another example of somebody that came as a bullpen arm, before becoming a starter, was Glen Perkins.


#78 amjgt

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 02:47 PM

Terry likes to be there in person when each of his pitchers hit their innings limit for the year.

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#79 spycake

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 03:31 PM

Another example of somebody that came as a bullpen arm, before becoming a starter, was Glen Perkins.

Yes, forgot him.I think he was the last Twins example, and that was 7 years ago.

 

Interesting that the three 21st century examples I can think of now (Santana, Liriano, and Perkins) were all left-handed.All also came up to relatively full rotations, which should not be a concern for Meyer at the moment.


#80 jokin

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 04:14 PM

It sounds like a bigger priority for Terry Ryan than watching Alex Meyer pitch this evening is in finalizing an extension agreement with the Red Wings:

 

 

Wings CEO/COO Naomi Silver and Twins general manager Terry Ryan will make the announcement on the field after the first inning of Monday night's Wings game against the Scranton/Wilkes-Barre RailRiders at Frontier Field.

 

Priorities.  Uggh.

 

http://www.democrata...ation/14577249/

 

Joyous, fact-based and tireless Twins fan for 40+ years, who unfortunately has been characterized as-

 

"forcing Twins fans to endure more bitter, baseless, and tiresome cheap shots about the Twins FO."