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Terry Ryan scheduled to see Alex Meyer pitch for the first time next Monday

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#31 Paul Pleiss

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 05:51 AM

I actually like the way Terry Ryan has worked since taking over for Mr. Incompetent (Billy Smith), but I just am starting to get a bad feeling about him. I don't think it's time for him to go, but Ronnie Clyde Gardenhire, or at the very least Rick Anderson, needs to go.

 

I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. It seems cra-cra that TR hasn't seen Alex Meyer pitch yet this season.

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#32 Platoon

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 06:23 AM

You guys make me think of this.

I went and looked up what a Mobious Strip was? It gave me a headache!
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#33 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 06:26 AM

I think all we've gathered for sure from May's 3 performances thus far, is that, given his month off due to injury, and his sketchy minor league appearances afterward, plus the usual difficult adjustments that most prospective SPs  have after call-up, his early struggles are entirely to be expected, and he definitely looked more the part of a major league pitcher in his last appearance. And as in Gibson's case, these can be thought of as necessary, but arduous, growing pains that may as well be dealt with sooner rather than later.  

 

There are "growing pains" and there are "walking 13 guys per 9 innings" situations.

 

I believe May should be up here and struggle. My point is that all of us were on the verge of tearing our hair out because he wasn't up in early June.

 

Well, it's pretty obvious that May shouldn't have been here in early June. It's entirely possible that the Twins know something about Meyer that we don't, such as "he can't repeat his delivery and he'll walk 13 guys every 9 innings early on".

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#34 jokin

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 07:59 AM

I know you're being sarcastic here, but I think it's pretty clear that this is most likely correct, at least to some degree. There's no way he could be as good as it appears most Twins fans think he will be. (and I think, and hope he can be) 

 

I also think that if I'm a minor league coordinator or player personnel director, I would do my best to do what I felt was best for my top prospects, regardless of what others think. 

 

I doubt there are very many Twins fans who don't think the Twins are doing what they feel is best for their top prospects. But the actual evidence from around the league- with greater than some 500+ starts from pitchers under the age of Trevor May this season- prompts questions to come about in wondering if the Twins have some serious blind spots, not in how they feel about the player, but in their philosophies and training regimen that might be retarding the development curve for top prospects from being major-league-ready more quickly


#35 Seth Stohs

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 08:36 AM

I believe that Meyer can have a big future. I think he can be that #2, maybe #1 that we hope. I don't think he's there yet. I personally want him up and hope that he comes up. But at this point, I don't know that it's a huge deal. I'd like him up and work in the bullpen 5-8 innings or something in September. 

 

Tall pitchers take a long time to develop, release point, all that stuff. So, it doesn't bother me that he's 24 and may not debut until 25. That's not bad for a 6-9 guy. 

I think we need to manage expectations while still being hopeful that he can become great. This year was about managing innings/pitches and getting him through the full season, and that's been successful.

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#36 TheLeviathan

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 09:04 AM

Well, it's pretty obvious that May shouldn't have been here in early June. It's entirely possible that the Twins know something about Meyer that we don't, such as "he can't repeat his delivery and he'll walk 13 guys every 9 innings early on".

 

I guess I fail to see the difference between early June and mid August.  Was he going to walk 15 per 9 innings or something I'm missing?

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#37 jokin

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 09:12 AM

I guess I fail to see the difference between early June and mid August.  Was he going to walk 15 per 9 innings or something I'm missing?

 

Exactly.  I would think that it's SOP for many, if not most other clubs, to send up their top prospects when they've demonstrated mastery of AA, AAA, or both levels. Why not let both of the M & M boys up, find out ASAP if their stuff translates, and if not, send them back to improve on their areas of deficiency.  In the case of Meyer, I keep coming back to the case of Randy Johnson, who learned on the job for four bad-to-mediocre major league seasons before he finally put it all together.  The question then is raised, what more can Meyer learn in AAA, that he can't learn better with the major league club?.... which isn't winning any time soon, anyway.

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#38 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 10:08 AM

I guess I fail to see the difference between early June and mid August.  Was he going to walk 15 per 9 innings or something I'm missing?

 

It's entirely possible. The point is that he has been absolutely awful. Calling him up earlier certainly wasn't going to make him a better pitcher and the Twins - now we know rightfully - had some reservations about his promotion.

 

It's more than a little arrogant to think we know better than the guys who watch these players every day, particularly when we as fans have been so absolutely 100% incontrovertibly wrong about the last two pitching prospects we wanted to see in Minnesota earlier than they were promoted.

 

As fans, we need to reel in the hubris on occasion. I'm as guilty of it as anyone here... The fact is that we get to look at stat lines. The Twins get to look at the actual player.

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#39 mike wants wins

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 10:16 AM

Or maybe Gibson is better this year because he was promoted last year.....that is the position most of us are taking, I believe.

These are the same people that signed Kubel and Bartlett, and started Hicks again, right? It is not like they are never wrong.
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Lighten up Francis....

#40 jokin

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 10:18 AM

 Calling him up earlier certainly wasn't going to make him a better pitcher...

 

 we as fans have been so absolutely 100% incontrovertibly wrong about the last two pitching prospects we wanted to see in Minnesota earlier than they were promoted.

 

We need to reel in the hubris occasionally. I'm as guilty of it as anyone here... The fact is that we get to look at stat lines. The Twins get to look at the actual player.

 

 

Is this first part of your post actually true?  Gibson, May, Thorpe, they all have to go through the transition process to becoming a major leaguer, there isn't something inherently wrong with initial failure, failure in most cases is just another valuable part of the learning process.  

 

The part about hubris...?, I am in total agreement.  The "actual player" that we currently see in Trevor May is not the player from the scouting reports we've pored over from the day he was acquired.


#41 jokin

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 10:19 AM

Or maybe Gibson is better this year because he was promoted last year.....that is the position most of us are taking, I believe.

These are the same people that signed Kubel and Bartlett, and started Hicks again, right? It is not like they are never wrong.

 

Looks like they're guilty of their own brand of hubris in those specific cases.

 

And they can't claim any success in "knowing" that Santana was ready, they only called him up out of sheer desperation, to play a position he had no recent experience at in CF, well after they literally had exhausted every other infield/outfield roster option either through embarrassing failure, their own inept roster management or injury.

Edited by jokin, 22 August 2014 - 10:25 AM.


#42 CRArko

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 10:34 AM

"Something" doesn't smell right here.  There is "something" we don't know. "Something" we don't understand. "Something" is going on that we aren't seeing. 

It's the Fair.
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#43 spycake

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 10:38 AM

I know you're being sarcastic here, but I think it's pretty clear that this is most likely correct, at least to some degree. There's no way he could be as good as it appears most Twins fans think he will be. (and I think, and hope he can be) 

Actually, if anyone here seems guilty for having too high of expectations for Meyer in the near future, it seems like it is the Twins.

 

Most of us on this board fully understand that Meyer will struggle in his first taste of MLB.  It's the Twins brass who seem to be dismissing the value of 2014 MLB innings for Meyer, perhaps believing he doesn't need them to be successful in MLB in early 2015?

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#44 spycake

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 10:42 AM

It's entirely possible. The point is that he has been absolutely awful. Calling him up earlier certainly wasn't going to make him a better pitcher and the Twins - now we know rightfully - had some reservations about his promotion.

Calling him up in June almost certainly makes him a better player in August, as opposed to calling him up in August.  (And almost certainly gives you more/better information going into the offseason, if not making the pitcher better for opening day 2015.)

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#45 spycake

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 10:48 AM

It's more than a little arrogant to think we know better than the guys who watch these players every day, particularly when we as fans have been so absolutely 100% incontrovertibly wrong about the last two pitching prospects we wanted to see in Minnesota earlier than they were promoted.

I for one never suggested Gibson or May would be a competent MLB pitcher from day 1.  And I am pretty sure Gibson would not have been a league-average MLB SP on opening day 2014 without several months of MLB time in 2013, as poor as it was.

 

I think it's more than a little arrogant to think that "the guys who watch these players every day" know best, after an extended recent stretch of poor records/drafts/developments as compared to their peers (admittedly looking better lately in the lower minors).

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#46 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 10:57 AM

I think it's more than a little arrogant to think that "the guys who watch these players every day" know best, after an extended recent stretch of poor records/drafts/developments as compared to their peers (admittedly looking better lately in the lower minors).

 

Do they know "best"? Probably not, as their record has reflected in past years (though it's hard to succeed without talent).

 

Do they know "better than us"? Given the performances of Gibson and May, I think that's pretty much indisputable.

 

My point isn't that the Twins are infallible. They certainly are not. But they certainly know a lot more about the situation than we do.


#47 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 11:03 AM

Is this first part of your post actually true?  Gibson, May, Thorpe, they all have to go through the transition process to becoming a major leaguer, there isn't something inherently wrong with initial failure, failure in most cases is just another valuable part of the learning process. 

Gibson failed and learned from it, true. But May hasn't failed thus far... He has been horrific.

 

Prospects are a balancing act between failing and learning versus being completely overwhelmed. Given May's early starts, I don't see how it can be argued that he was ready 2-3 months ago if he's pitching like this now... Unless you believe that he learned absolutely nothing by pitching in Rochester. I, for one, find that pretty hard to believe.

 

I absolutely believe that calling up May was the right move. He has to learn against MLB hitters at some point. My main point is that we thought the Twins were crazy for not calling him up in June. Obviously, they had their reasons and based on May's performance thus far, they were good reasons. It's not a giant leap of assumption to believe that the Twins might have similar sentiments about Meyer and aren't holding him in Rochester just for funsies.

 

With that said, I'd still like to see Meyer get the call in September out of the bullpen. 


#48 TheLeviathan

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 02:38 PM

Look, I'm not banging the drum the Twins were wrong to not call those guys up. I just can't figure out how struggling rookie performances make someone "not ready" when it's entirely common for rookies to struggle.

I can't make sense of how that argument works. May was likely just as ready then as he is now, so not sure that mounts much of a defense. With these two I tend to think it's largely been a combination of injuries and some as yet unexplained method the Twins have with young pitchers I can't make a damn bit of sense out of.

#49 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 02:56 PM

Look, I'm not banging the drum the Twins were wrong to not call those guys up. I just can't figure out how struggling rookie performances make someone "not ready" when it's entirely common for rookies to struggle.

I can't make sense of how that argument works. May was likely just as ready then as he is now, so not sure that mounts much of a defense. With these two I tend to think it's largely been a combination of injuries and some as yet unexplained method the Twins have with young pitchers I can't make a damn bit of sense out of.

 

I don't understand it either. My only point is that before going full-frontal on management, it's prudent to take a look at what happened with Gibson, what is happening with May, and give consideration to the idea that the Twins might have a better understanding of their situation than we do.

 

I'm not sure the Twins are right, I'm only saying that they're better informed.


#50 Willihammer

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 03:10 PM

I'm not convinced May is doing worse now than Correia or Nolaso were doing in May. Ditto Pelfrey and Worley in early 2013.

#51 TheLeviathan

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 03:12 PM

I'm not sure the Twins are right, I'm only saying that they're better informed.


With that I have no issue, but it doesn't entail they use that information sensibly. Particularly with pitchers I have no clue how they are making that promotion to MLB decision.

#52 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 03:15 PM

I'm not convinced May is doing worse now than Correia or Nolaso were doing in May. Ditto Pelfrey and Worley in early 2013.

 

Trevor May currently has an xFIP of 8.04.

 

That's pretty much all you need to know about Trevor May's first ~12 innings in MLB.


#53 JB_Iowa

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 04:13 PM

Trevor May currently has an xFIP of 8.04.

 

That's pretty much all you need to know about Trevor May's first ~12 innings in MLB.

 

But is he learning from it?

 

Is he better off being up and pitching and working through this now rather than next season.

 

I think that's the part that is hard to answer.  The season is lost anyway.  Aren't we better off "testing the waters" on some of these guys.

 

Was Kyle Gibson better off for getting to pitch a little at the mlb level last year?  

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#54 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 05:49 PM

If you read through my posts, I've said multiple times that May needs to be in MLB. My point is about the distress over him not being here in June, not whether he should be here today.

#55 mike wants wins

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 06:13 PM

Now we are supposed to read and remember your posts? The rules here are getting pretty strict.......
Lighten up Francis....

#56 PseudoSABR

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 06:42 PM

I wonder if there could exist a (hypothetical or not) set of facts that would prove the Twins handling of pitching prospects correct. 

 

It's just like with Gibson last year.  Gibson's initial failure meant he should be have been called up sooner.  If Gibson had been successful? Well, he should have been up sooner!

 

And now: May's initial failure means he should have been called up sooner; and if he was successful initially? You guessed it: should have been called up sooner.  

 

Meyer's consistency struggles? Call him up sooner!

 

I can't wait to fill in the blanks with Berrios next year!  New refrain same old tune.

Edited by PseudoSABR, 22 August 2014 - 06:43 PM.


#57 jokin

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 07:13 PM

I wonder if there could exist a (hypothetical or not) set of facts that would prove the Twins handling of pitching prospects correct. 

 

It's just like with Gibson last year.  Gibson's initial failure meant he should be have been called up sooner.  If Gibson had been successful? Well, he should have been up sooner!

 

And now: May's initial failure means he should have been called up sooner; and if he was successful initially? You guessed it: should have been called up sooner.  

 

Meyer's consistency struggles? Call him up sooner!

 

I can't wait to fill in the blanks with Berrios next year!  New refrain same old tune.

 

 

Wow.  Exactly no one has said anything close to what you're intimating.

Edited by jokin, 22 August 2014 - 07:16 PM.


#58 benji21

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 07:17 PM

After watching May throw the ball everywhere but over the white part of the plate, it's entirely possible that the Twins are coming from a position of knowledge with Meyer.

 

A crazy thought, I know.

 

I think this is just a tad condescending as you don't have to be on the Twins organizational staff to have knowledge and good opinions. Quite frankly, I don't really trust their opinions much anyway.  They've lost a lot of credibility.   Meyer does not equal May.  Sure, May is currently taking his lumps with the Twins, but that is exactly what he needs to do in a throwaway year.  I'd rather have him get beaten up a little this year than next.  Just because May and Meyer were roughly on the same trajectory does not mean that Meyer will suffer the same pitfalls as May.  But along those parallel lines, I'd like Meyer to get the initial anxiety and adjustments out of the way this year.

 

Bring up Meyer, throw away pitch count and innings limit and just let the young man see if he can get big league hitters out. I don't care if you put him in the rotation or stuff him in the pen, but bring him up and let him throw the ball to big league hitters. He's good at throwing a baseball, and if he's like any other pitching prospect in baseball, eventually he's going to get hurt. Let's see if he can record some outs for the big league ball club before that happens.

 

Exactly!  It will be the rare prospect who hits the ground running in the MLB (Shelby Miller?).  Meyer will never be as "prepared" as Ryan wants him to be.  I really don't care what he looks like right now.  I don't have to have ever seen him pitch one pitch.  He's done in AAA this year.  Let him throw the rock in the show, get some things to work on, and if need be take those lessons to AAA to start next season for a couple weeks or a month.  But God help me if that turns into half a season.

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#59 benji21

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 07:26 PM

Or maybe Gibson is better this year because he was promoted last year.....that is the position most of us are taking, I believe.

These are the same people that signed Kubel and Bartlett, and started Hicks again, right? It is not like they are never wrong.

Yes, yes, and yes.  Their credibility is dreadful.  The Twins are frequently wrong and, I think the arrogance lies in their failed philosophies.  They really struggle with bringing along top end talent.  They fail miserably with timing frequently overcooking or undercooking their prospects.  It is really hard to pin down what they are thinking when they promote Santana, Vargas, and (albeit briefly) Polanco, but drag their feet with Meyer, May, Gibson et al.  Perhaps it is the pitchers that they can't get a good read on.  I hope they bring in some fresh eyes from other successful organizations to help them.


#60 DocBauer

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 08:42 PM

A few thoughts based on all the various viewpoints shared.

Personally, and I feel this season has proved it, in the case of Gibson, I think the Twins handled his situation appropriately. (Ever situation is unique unto itself) He showed real flashes, and some real inconsistency. When he seemed to reach a level of greater consistency, they brought him up. Did he struggle? Absolutely. Did he learn? I'd have to say he did. Whether he was tired and reaching the end of the line last season, or trying too hard, or working on confidence, or other factors, he did pitch, gained ML experience, and I think that experience helped him get ready for 2014.

I think people need to quit bellyaching about May coming up in June. No matter what he was doing, it was his very first AAA experience. And while no-one from the Twins has ever come out and said it, there seemed to be a perfect set of circumstances that had May pitching well, pitching consistent, approaching mid-season with the Futures Game up in the Twin Cities where he would have thrown, and I believe probably stayed. If that scenario had played out, nobody would be complaining about June. The fact is he got hurt, he missed time, got his legs back under him, and is here now. His first start stunk. While not appreciably better, his second start was still better, and he did strike several batters out. I think he's here to stay now. He'll take his lumps, but be allowed to pitch and grow and learn. I think it's valuable experience that will help him build for next season. I don't think the Twins have mishandled May at all.

I'm of mixed opinion on Meyer. Are the Twins being too cautious with him? Perhaps. Given the choice of erring either way, I'd go for the side of caution rather than being rash. That doesn't mean he shouldn't come up and gain similar ML experience, even if poor, mixed, or good in results. And perhaps he still will. Just saying I can appreciate the kid-glove approach to a top prospect trying to develop and watch not only his pitch/innings count, but also attempting to measure his sauces quotient. It you want to call that consistency, so be it.

I'm reminded of Gardenhire's comment last season regarding Gibson, when he stated they wanted him to be ready so that when promoted, he'd be promoted up to stay. And as it turns out, that is exactly what happened. I do agree that the Rochester staff, and the various milb scouts and assistants see more and know more than we do. I also agree in reaching a point of no return where you need to learn and develop, even with iffy results, at the ML level. But there can also be negatives involved with getting shelled. Is it possible the Twins are simply being cautious, or overly cautious, in regard to Meyer, simply to protect him from getting randomly shelled due to some of the inconsistent, high pitch count innings he's shown at times this year?

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