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Terry Ryan scheduled to see Alex Meyer pitch for the first time next Monday

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#21 Seth Stohs

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 06:52 PM

Maybe we should conclude that Meyer, despite his stuff, just isn't that hot a prospect if the team isn't willing to give him a shot up here ahead of the Pinos and Darnells. In other words, we Twins fans built him up to something he was not, and believed our own hype.

 

I know you're being sarcastic here, but I think it's pretty clear that this is most likely correct, at least to some degree. There's no way he could be as good as it appears most Twins fans think he will be. (and I think, and hope he can be) 

 

I also think that if I'm a minor league coordinator or player personnel director, I would do my best to do what I felt was best for my top prospects, regardless of what others think. 


#22 Hosken Bombo Disco

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 07:02 PM

I know you're being sarcastic here, but I think it's pretty clear that this is most likely correct, at least to some degree. There's no way he could be as good as it appears most Twins fans think he will be. (and I think, and hope he can be) 

 

I also think that if I'm a minor league coordinator or player personnel director, I would do my best to do what I felt was best for my top prospects, regardless of what others think. 

Not quite sarcasm actually -- thanks for letting me clear that up. I am coming around to the other side of the argument despite jokin's good write up here, the Middlebrooks praise, all the rest of it. I would think Meyer will be at least as good as Gibson but there's gotta be some information the rest of us are not in on, or obviously he would have gotten his chance by now.

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#23 Thrylos

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 07:19 PM

I know you're being sarcastic here, but I think it's pretty clear that this is most likely correct, at least to some degree. There's no way he could be as good as it appears most Twins fans think he will be. (and I think, and hope he can be)

 

Meyer is one of those guys who is really special because he has a whole bunch of physical talent and the smarts to know his limitations.This season I watched him pitch live in 3 starts in addition to film. What amazes me (and makes him really special) is not the 96 and 97 mph FB and the slider you hear about.This sounds a lot like Franky and that is special on its own merit, but Meyer has a mid 70s curve and a low 80s change (that's his new pitch) that mixes in successfully.And he is just starting to command those puppies.And when we are talking 20-25 mph diffs in commanded pitches and a good mix, we are really talking unhittable.He is special and the Twins have not had a pitcher like him. 

Getting healthy is the big thing here and letting it go.

Edited by Thrylos, 21 August 2014 - 07:20 PM.

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#24 jokin

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 07:23 PM

Not quite sarcasm actually -- thanks for letting me clear that up. I am coming around to the other side of the argument despite jokin's good write up here, the Middlebrooks praise, all the rest of it.

 

I would think Meyer will be at least as good as Gibson but there's gotta be some information the rest of us are not in on, or obviously he would have gotten his chance by now.

 

I'm not sure there's any big secret information, I think it's pretty clear that the Twins intent and prime goal for Meyer this year was to manage his innings/pitches to keep him pitching and healthy for a whole season.  I think Meyer's height/mechanics relative to keeping his arm and shoulder healthy and him pitching effectively and consistent, weighs heavily in the thoughts and plans for the guy the Twins hope ends up as Ace material- pulling the trigger on a promotion just doesn't appear to have been at all in the plan for 2014.

 

Regarding Gibson, if Meyer only ends up at least as good as Gibson, the Twins and Meyer will have badly failed in reaching Meyer's full potential.

 

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"forcing Twins fans to endure more bitter, baseless, and tiresome cheap shots about the Twins FO."


#25 DocBauer

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 07:57 PM

After watching May throw the ball everywhere but over the white part of the plate, it's entirely possible that the Twins are coming from a position of knowledge with Meyer.
 
I want to see Meyer up here as much as anybody but after the "delays" in promoting Gibson and May and their subsequent awfulterribhorribleness in MLB the past two seasons, maybe it's time to reconsider exactly how much we know about these guys, particularly in comparison to the Twins' coaching staff that gets to watch them every day.
 
A crazy thought, I know.


This!

I understand saliva inducing expectation and hope for the Twins top pitching prospect to arrive, but come on now. Ryan trades a quality, viable ML talent for a top rotation arm because he doesn't like him, doesn't believe in him, and has a secret desire to crush his spirit and development. And obviously, Meyer being hurt and missing two months last season, along with bouts of wildness this season at times, provides the perfect cover for the evil mustachioed-twisting Ryan to continue on his dastardly dead of tormenting our tortured hero.

We can all pretend to be experts and know what is best to do here, debate, and agree to agree or disagree with the Twins and ourselves. Personally, I want him up, even on a limited basis, just for a taste of ML life and experience out there on the mound. But you'd think there was some conspiracy involved here.

And cancer scare and treatment or not, I think you'd find Ryan visiting each team only once on the season, twice on occasion, is pretty much on par not only for the Twins, but just every other GM in the game. Their job is to run the ML team and supervise the men "beneath" them that are trained, experienced and hired to scout and manage the minors.
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#26 gunnarthor

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 08:28 PM

Should we send May down?Right now Nolasco has to pitch b/c of that contract. Hughes and Gibson should stay in the rotation.Milone seemed like a worthy gamble.My guess is that, if Meyer comes up it'll be in the pen and next year we'll start with those five in the rotation and Meyer would replace the first one when a DL trip comes up.


#27 TheLeviathan

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 08:51 PM

After watching May throw the ball everywhere but over the white part of the plate, it's entirely possible that the Twins are coming from a position of knowledge with Meyer.

 

I want to see Meyer up here as much as anybody but after the "delays" in promoting Gibson and May and their subsequent awfulterribhorribleness in MLB the past two seasons, maybe it's time to reconsider exactly how much we know about these guys, particularly in comparison to the Twins' coaching staff that gets to watch them every day.

 

A crazy thought, I know.

 

Or maybe we as fans need to stop expecting prospects to be all-stars upon debut.  Or even as second year players.  It's a massive adjustment to the big leagues that has had many stars of this game through initially.  I'd argue no amount of AAA starts can prepare you for all the atmosphere that is brought in a start in the majors and getting through those early jitters and hurdles is a typical necessity.  

 

I don't know what they are doing with Meyer, it hasn't made a ton of sense, but I'm not going to bang the drum on this.  Except to say this: Ryan's choice of words here certainly lends itself well to speculation and bewilderment, regardless of what he meant.  

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#28 jokin

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 09:52 PM

This!

I understand saliva inducing expectation and hope for the Twins top pitching prospect to arrive, but come on now. Ryan trades a quality, viable ML talent for a top rotation arm because he doesn't like him, doesn't believe in him, and has a secret desire to crush his spirit and development. And obviously, Meyer being hurt and missing two months last season, along with bouts of wildness this season at times, provides the perfect cover for the evil mustachioed-twisting Ryan to continue on his dastardly dead of tormenting our tortured hero.

We can all pretend to be experts and know what is best to do here, debate, and agree to agree or disagree with the Twins and ourselves. Personally, I want him up, even on a limited basis, just for a taste of ML life and experience out there on the mound. But you'd think there was some conspiracy involved here.

And cancer scare and treatment or not, I think you'd find Ryan visiting each team only once on the season, twice on occasion, is pretty much on par not only for the Twins, but just every other GM in the game. Their job is to run the ML team and supervise the men "beneath" them that are trained, experienced and hired to scout and manage the minors.

 

 

No conspiracy, just a general disagreement about promoting younger starting pitchers and suggesting that something is wrong in their methodology at getting younger pitchers to the majors.  Aaron Gleeman pointed out the facts this year about the Twins and promoting young pitchers:

 

 

 

Here's a list of the starting pitchers the Twins have used this season while refusing to call up 24-year-old prospects Alex Meyer and Trevor May from Triple-A:

Phil Hughes
Kevin Correia
Kyle Gibson
Ricky Nolasco
Sam Deduno
Yohan Pino
Mike Pelfrey
Kris Johnson
Anthony Swarzak
Logan Darnell

[Add Tommy Milone, age 27 to this list since July 31]

 

This season the Twins have used a pitcher younger than 25 years old for a grand total of 12.1 innings, all by reliever Michael Tonkin.

 

[As of July 30]...... Meanwhile, across MLB there have been 447 games started by pitchers younger than Meyer and 504 games started by pitchers younger than May.

 

 

And if bouts of wildness was the drop dead reason for definitely holding Meyer back, right here are 6 Twins pitchers that belie that conclusion, along with their 2014 BB/9 rate (SPs in bold):

 

May13.00

Pelfrey6.85

Milone  6.24

Johnson 6.08

Tonkin 4.38

Deduno3.95

Edited by jokin, 21 August 2014 - 09:54 PM.

 

Joyous, fact-based and tireless Twins fan for 40+ years, who unfortunately has been characterized as-

 

"forcing Twins fans to endure more bitter, baseless, and tiresome cheap shots about the Twins FO."


#29 Paul Pleiss

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 11:36 PM

Bring up Meyer, throw away pitch count and innings limit and just let the young man see if he can get big league hitters out. I don't care if you put him in the rotation or stuff him in the pen, but bring him up and let him throw the ball to big league hitters. He's good at throwing a baseball, and if he's like any other pitching prospect in baseball, eventually he's going to get hurt. Let's see if he can record some outs for the big league ball club before that happens.

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#30 Thegrin

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 05:14 AM

"Something" doesn't smell right here.There is "something" we don't know. "Something" we don't understand. "Something" is going on that we aren't seeing. 

 

We can wonder all day about what that "something" is... we may find out after he is called up.We may not... but "something" is definitely positively going on.


#31 Paul Pleiss

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 05:51 AM

I actually like the way Terry Ryan has worked since taking over for Mr. Incompetent (Billy Smith), but I just am starting to get a bad feeling about him. I don't think it's time for him to go, but Ronnie Clyde Gardenhire, or at the very least Rick Anderson, needs to go.

 

I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. It seems cra-cra that TR hasn't seen Alex Meyer pitch yet this season.

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#32 Platoon

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 06:23 AM

You guys make me think of this.

I went and looked up what a Mobious Strip was? It gave me a headache!
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#33 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 06:26 AM

I think all we've gathered for sure from May's 3 performances thus far, is that, given his month off due to injury, and his sketchy minor league appearances afterward, plus the usual difficult adjustments that most prospective SPs  have after call-up, his early struggles are entirely to be expected, and he definitely looked more the part of a major league pitcher in his last appearance. And as in Gibson's case, these can be thought of as necessary, but arduous, growing pains that may as well be dealt with sooner rather than later.  

 

There are "growing pains" and there are "walking 13 guys per 9 innings" situations.

 

I believe May should be up here and struggle. My point is that all of us were on the verge of tearing our hair out because he wasn't up in early June.

 

Well, it's pretty obvious that May shouldn't have been here in early June. It's entirely possible that the Twins know something about Meyer that we don't, such as "he can't repeat his delivery and he'll walk 13 guys every 9 innings early on".

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#34 jokin

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 07:59 AM

I know you're being sarcastic here, but I think it's pretty clear that this is most likely correct, at least to some degree. There's no way he could be as good as it appears most Twins fans think he will be. (and I think, and hope he can be) 

 

I also think that if I'm a minor league coordinator or player personnel director, I would do my best to do what I felt was best for my top prospects, regardless of what others think. 

 

I doubt there are very many Twins fans who don't think the Twins are doing what they feel is best for their top prospects. But the actual evidence from around the league- with greater than some 500+ starts from pitchers under the age of Trevor May this season- prompts questions to come about in wondering if the Twins have some serious blind spots, not in how they feel about the player, but in their philosophies and training regimen that might be retarding the development curve for top prospects from being major-league-ready more quickly

 

Joyous, fact-based and tireless Twins fan for 40+ years, who unfortunately has been characterized as-

 

"forcing Twins fans to endure more bitter, baseless, and tiresome cheap shots about the Twins FO."


#35 Seth Stohs

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 08:36 AM

I believe that Meyer can have a big future. I think he can be that #2, maybe #1 that we hope. I don't think he's there yet. I personally want him up and hope that he comes up. But at this point, I don't know that it's a huge deal. I'd like him up and work in the bullpen 5-8 innings or something in September. 

 

Tall pitchers take a long time to develop, release point, all that stuff. So, it doesn't bother me that he's 24 and may not debut until 25. That's not bad for a 6-9 guy. 

I think we need to manage expectations while still being hopeful that he can become great. This year was about managing innings/pitches and getting him through the full season, and that's been successful.

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#36 TheLeviathan

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 09:04 AM

Well, it's pretty obvious that May shouldn't have been here in early June. It's entirely possible that the Twins know something about Meyer that we don't, such as "he can't repeat his delivery and he'll walk 13 guys every 9 innings early on".

 

I guess I fail to see the difference between early June and mid August.  Was he going to walk 15 per 9 innings or something I'm missing?

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#37 jokin

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 09:12 AM

I guess I fail to see the difference between early June and mid August.  Was he going to walk 15 per 9 innings or something I'm missing?

 

Exactly.  I would think that it's SOP for many, if not most other clubs, to send up their top prospects when they've demonstrated mastery of AA, AAA, or both levels. Why not let both of the M & M boys up, find out ASAP if their stuff translates, and if not, send them back to improve on their areas of deficiency.  In the case of Meyer, I keep coming back to the case of Randy Johnson, who learned on the job for four bad-to-mediocre major league seasons before he finally put it all together.  The question then is raised, what more can Meyer learn in AAA, that he can't learn better with the major league club?.... which isn't winning any time soon, anyway.

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Joyous, fact-based and tireless Twins fan for 40+ years, who unfortunately has been characterized as-

 

"forcing Twins fans to endure more bitter, baseless, and tiresome cheap shots about the Twins FO."


#38 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 10:08 AM

I guess I fail to see the difference between early June and mid August.  Was he going to walk 15 per 9 innings or something I'm missing?

 

It's entirely possible. The point is that he has been absolutely awful. Calling him up earlier certainly wasn't going to make him a better pitcher and the Twins - now we know rightfully - had some reservations about his promotion.

 

It's more than a little arrogant to think we know better than the guys who watch these players every day, particularly when we as fans have been so absolutely 100% incontrovertibly wrong about the last two pitching prospects we wanted to see in Minnesota earlier than they were promoted.

 

As fans, we need to reel in the hubris on occasion. I'm as guilty of it as anyone here... The fact is that we get to look at stat lines. The Twins get to look at the actual player.

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#39 Mike Sixel

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 10:16 AM

Or maybe Gibson is better this year because he was promoted last year.....that is the position most of us are taking, I believe.

These are the same people that signed Kubel and Bartlett, and started Hicks again, right? It is not like they are never wrong.
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#40 jokin

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 10:18 AM

 Calling him up earlier certainly wasn't going to make him a better pitcher...

 

 we as fans have been so absolutely 100% incontrovertibly wrong about the last two pitching prospects we wanted to see in Minnesota earlier than they were promoted.

 

We need to reel in the hubris occasionally. I'm as guilty of it as anyone here... The fact is that we get to look at stat lines. The Twins get to look at the actual player.

 

 

Is this first part of your post actually true?  Gibson, May, Thorpe, they all have to go through the transition process to becoming a major leaguer, there isn't something inherently wrong with initial failure, failure in most cases is just another valuable part of the learning process.  

 

The part about hubris...?, I am in total agreement.  The "actual player" that we currently see in Trevor May is not the player from the scouting reports we've pored over from the day he was acquired.

 

Joyous, fact-based and tireless Twins fan for 40+ years, who unfortunately has been characterized as-

 

"forcing Twins fans to endure more bitter, baseless, and tiresome cheap shots about the Twins FO."