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Terry Ryan scheduled to see Alex Meyer pitch for the first time next Monday

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#1 jokin

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 02:57 PM

This little Berardino column from early yesterday slipped my perusal:

 

Twinsights:  What's the Plan for Meyer?

 

 

 

As noted in this space Tuesday, that leaves (Meyer) plenty of room to finish out the year with three final starts for the Red Wings, followed by a potential September debut for the Twins.

 

When I asked Ryan about that possibility, he shook his head. “I don’t know yet,” Ryan said. “I’m going to see him (pitch next Monday in Rochester). I’m going to see the whole club, of course, but I’ll see him for the first time (at that level). It’s important that when you bring a guy up they’re prepared to pitch at this level. So we’ll see how prepared he looks.”                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      So it’s an excellent bet that Ryan will make his first and only 2014 visit to Rochester this weekend.

 

Ryan's somewhat shocking answer, "I don't know yet", and the revelation that this will be his first and only in-person viewing of Meyer in 2014 is pretty telling. "Consistency" evidently has been replaced by "prepared" as the promotion fall-back impediment-crutch-word.

 

I think this little snippet makes it clear that Meyer was never realistically in the plans for 2014.  Previously in the article, Ryan expressed how pleased "the plan" laid out for Meyer in 2014 has been largely accomplished- the plan apparently being:  

 

"Let's manage innings and pitch count very closely and nurse Meyer through an entire AAA season without a shutdown" .....

 

and definitely not:

 

"Let's see if we can manage his development and innings limitations in AAA commensurate with as early a call-up to the Twins as possible to continue to maximize his developmental trajectory."

Edited by jokin, 21 August 2014 - 06:29 PM.

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#2 mike wants wins

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 03:13 PM

Isn't this like the Madden curse?

 

It is hard to believe that it is a requirement the GM see a player at a level before that guy can be promoted. 

Lighten up Francis....

#3 Cast of Thousands

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 03:16 PM

I'd like to see Meyer have more than one game in a row in which he doesn't walk a handful of players or take 90+ pitches to get through 4-5 innings.

 

No doubt, the last start looked outstanding but the two starts before that:

 

August 9:  2.0 Innings, 64 pitches, 2 BB

August 14:  3.2 Innings, 84 pitches, 3 BB

 

With as good of stuff as he has, how can he possibly be so inefficient?  Another thing I've been wondering....   If Pinto is as substandard behind the plate as it sounds like many think he is, is that hurting someone like Meyer from really reaching his potential?

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#4 jokin

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 03:19 PM

Isn't this like the Madden curse?

 

It is hard to believe that it is a requirement the GM see a player at a level before that guy can be promoted. 

 

Even more stunning, Ryan's comments apparently imply that Meyer has NEVER been under consideration for promotion because of a lack of definitive information about Meyer's major-league preparedness, information that apparently only Terry Ryan is capable to gather in-person.  Baffling.


#5 mike wants wins

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 03:23 PM

I'm trying really, really hard to not take that TR statement as some kind of actual requirement.....

Lighten up Francis....

#6 jokin

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 03:28 PM

I'd like to see Meyer have more than one game in a row in which he doesn't walk a handful of players or take 90+ pitches to get through 4-5 innings.

 

No doubt, the last start looked outstanding but the two starts before that:

 

August 9:  2.0 Innings, 64 pitches, 2 BB

August 14:  3.2 Innings, 84 pitches, 3 BB

 

With as good of stuff as he has, how can he possibly be so inefficient?  Another thing I've been wondering....   If Pinto is as substandard behind the plate as it sounds like many think he is, is that hurting someone like Meyer from really reaching his potential?

 

Before August 14, he had a 7 game in a row string of excellent outings.  Meyer had an amazing string of five straight games of 6 innings per game, with a 1.50 ERA and a .177 BA, followed by two more strong outings of 5 and 5.2 innings.  He's on an innings/pitch count limitation, he's doing what's being asked of him for the most part, and proves he's not a finished product as illustrated in your August 9 and August 14 outings.  But he's clearly got the best major league-ready stuff in the upper minors, it's a big question if he's best being served by throwing all of these innings in AAA, or with the big club, which is spinning its wheels anyway.

 

Regarding his inefficiency, all very tall pitchers struggle with their deliveries, particularly as they are developing.  Plus, add the fact that he's developed a new third pitch this year.

Edited by jokin, 21 August 2014 - 03:31 PM.


#7 tobi0040

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 03:36 PM

Pretty much confirms it for me. He was never coming up this year.

When the bar is pelfrey, Nolasco, pino etc. a group wih one of the worst era's in the league it is insulting To suggest Meyer is not prepared. It is all relative.

If he is deemed prepared, they will shut him down and say aww shucks.

It is also just bizarre that the gm has not seen his 3rd prospect play.

Edited by tobi0040, 21 August 2014 - 03:39 PM.


#8 jokin

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 03:52 PM


It is also just bizarre that the gm has not seen his 3rd prospect play.

 

It was widely reported that Terry Ryan was the closer on the deal for Kendrys Morales on June 2.  And that he more or less has been back full-time since on or before June 11.  There have been multiple starting pitcher promotions during these last 2+ months.  It follows logically then, that the issue of the prospects for promotion of the #3 overall prospect and the #1 pitching prospect has curiously been in the dead letter file all season- or perhaps, maybe TR is under severe traveling restrictions due to his health concerns?


#9 tobi0040

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 04:21 PM

It was widely reported that Terry Ryan was the closer on the deal for Kendrys Morales on June 2.  And that he more or less has been back full-time since on or before June 11.  There have been multiple starting pitcher promotions during these last 2+ months.  It follows logically then, that the issue of the prospects for promotion of the #3 overall prospect and the #1 pitching prospect has curiously been in the dead letter file all season- or perhaps, maybe TR is under severe traveling restrictions due to his health concerns?


Unfortunately we could be in the same place next year. A few guys have a lower era through 40 innings and leap him. Then of course the twins will salivate at the thought of delaying his service time another year.

#10 CRArko

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 04:29 PM

You guys make me think of this.

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#11 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 05:31 PM

After watching May throw the ball everywhere but over the white part of the plate, it's entirely possible that the Twins are coming from a position of knowledge with Meyer.

 

I want to see Meyer up here as much as anybody but after the "delays" in promoting Gibson and May and their subsequent awfulterribhorribleness in MLB the past two seasons, maybe it's time to reconsider exactly how much we know about these guys, particularly in comparison to the Twins' coaching staff that gets to watch them every day.

 

A crazy thought, I know.

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#12 old nurse

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 05:37 PM

There is a manager and a pitching coach in Rochester fully capable of assessing Meyer.'s performance It is a fairly good bet they have an understanding of what Meyerr needs to work on and his performance goals.  That is more telling than a minor league stat line available online.  The service clock theory kind of goes out the window by July.


#13 Seth Stohs

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 05:47 PM

Ryan just made his first trip to Cedar Rapids about a month ago, and then he made a trip with the big league club out west. Then there was the trade deadline. 

 

Second... most likely Brad Steil, Mike Radcliff, Eric Rasmussen, the coaching staff, Rob Antony and others have been to Rochester games this year.  Obviously Ryan wants to see everyone, but that hasn't been feasible this year. He also has complete confidence in his staff to look beyond the stats to see if he is prepared for the big leagues or not. 

 

Ryan said he didn't know if Meyer was going to get promoted. Would people have liked it better if he would have just flat-out said No, he's not going to get promoted? He's not going to tip his hand either way to a reporter. 

 

I want to see him up as much as anyone, but let's not worry so much about specific quotes from a GM when you know that he's not going to directly answer any question about this topic, and shouldn't.

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#14 Seth Stohs

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 05:48 PM

After watching May throw the ball everywhere but over the white part of the plate, it's entirely possible that the Twins are coming from a position of knowledge with Meyer.

 

I want to see Meyer up here as much as anybody but after the "delays" in promoting Gibson and May and their subsequent awfulterribhorribleness in MLB the past two seasons, maybe it's time to reconsider exactly how much we know about these guys, particularly in comparison to the Twins' coaching staff that gets to watch them every day.

 

A crazy thought, I know.

 

Crazy talk, Brock! Ha!


#15 h2oface

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 05:49 PM

Meyers is as ready as all but Gibson and Hughes, and even they have had several games that mirror some of Meyers.  There is really nothing to lose by giving Meyers a shot before the end of the year, that is.......... since they missed his whole year and can't turn back the clock.  


#16 jokin

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 05:53 PM

After watching May throw the ball everywhere but over the white part of the plate, it's entirely possible that the Twins are coming from a position of knowledge with Meyer.

 

I want to see Meyer up here as much as anybody but after the "delays" in promoting Gibson and May and their subsequent awfulterribhorribleness in MLB the past two seasons, maybe it's time to reconsider exactly how much we know about these guys, particularly in comparison to the Twins' coaching staff that gets to watch them every day.

 

A crazy thought, I know.

 

I think all we've gathered for sure from May's 3 performances thus far, is that, given his month off due to injury, and his sketchy minor league appearances afterward, plus the usual difficult adjustments that most prospective SPs  have after call-up, his early struggles are entirely to be expected, and he definitely looked more the part of a major league pitcher in his last appearance. And as in Gibson's case, these can be thought of as necessary, but arduous, growing pains that may as well be dealt with sooner rather than later.  

 

Where your supposition rings especially true for May, with respect to the front office's concern in promoting him, is the fact that thus far, he's far from the "power pitcher" that was advertised.  To this point, we've seen a pretty ordinary, strictly low-90s straight fastball, and an utterly useless curve. Certainly not the mid-90s FB/ plus curve, strike-out machine that was previously billed.

 

After seeing Meyer pitch in person, I can assure everyone that Meyer isn't the "previously-billed" May, let alone the current major league May.  If the Twins really have even less confidence in Meyer than May....i.e,, to be given at least a chance to get his feet wet this year, than something's really gone terribly wrong with both of Terry's biggest and most-celebrated trades in his second tenure at the helm. 


#17 Seth Stohs

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 05:58 PM

There is a manager and a pitching coach in Rochester fully capable of assessing Meyer.'s performance It is a fairly good bet they have an understanding of what Meyerr needs to work on and his performance goals.  That is more telling than a minor league stat line available online.  The service clock theory kind of goes out the window by July.

 

Absolutely correct... Service Clock, arbitration, free agency, they're all out the door at this point.


#18 Hosken Bombo Disco

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 06:01 PM

Maybe we should conclude that Meyer, despite his stuff, just isn't that hot a prospect if the team isn't willing to give him a shot up here ahead of the Pinos and Darnells. In other words, we Twins fans built him up to something he was not, and believed our own hype.


#19 Hosken Bombo Disco

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 06:02 PM

Because he certainly would have made his debut long since now, if he were still in the Washington system, control or not.

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#20 jokin

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 06:11 PM

Because he certainly would have made his debut long since now, if he were still in the Washington system, control or not.

 

I don't know about you Hosken, but I believe my own eyes and even moreso, the eyes of every single scouting service, which all have him ranked somewhere in the top 50 prospects.  Will he struggle initially if he's ever promoted?  Undoubtedly.  But talk of being "prepared" or not, as the new setting of the bar, or the reason for holding him back at this point, lacks credibility. If they publicly stated that he's an unfinished product, I could buy into that characterization 100 percent, but that shouldn't mean he doesn't deserve a promotion.

Edited by jokin, 21 August 2014 - 06:12 PM.


#21 Seth Stohs

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 06:52 PM

Maybe we should conclude that Meyer, despite his stuff, just isn't that hot a prospect if the team isn't willing to give him a shot up here ahead of the Pinos and Darnells. In other words, we Twins fans built him up to something he was not, and believed our own hype.

 

I know you're being sarcastic here, but I think it's pretty clear that this is most likely correct, at least to some degree. There's no way he could be as good as it appears most Twins fans think he will be. (and I think, and hope he can be) 

 

I also think that if I'm a minor league coordinator or player personnel director, I would do my best to do what I felt was best for my top prospects, regardless of what others think. 


#22 Hosken Bombo Disco

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 07:02 PM

I know you're being sarcastic here, but I think it's pretty clear that this is most likely correct, at least to some degree. There's no way he could be as good as it appears most Twins fans think he will be. (and I think, and hope he can be) 

 

I also think that if I'm a minor league coordinator or player personnel director, I would do my best to do what I felt was best for my top prospects, regardless of what others think. 

Not quite sarcasm actually -- thanks for letting me clear that up. I am coming around to the other side of the argument despite jokin's good write up here, the Middlebrooks praise, all the rest of it. I would think Meyer will be at least as good as Gibson but there's gotta be some information the rest of us are not in on, or obviously he would have gotten his chance by now.

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#23 Thrylos

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 07:19 PM

I know you're being sarcastic here, but I think it's pretty clear that this is most likely correct, at least to some degree. There's no way he could be as good as it appears most Twins fans think he will be. (and I think, and hope he can be)

 

Meyer is one of those guys who is really special because he has a whole bunch of physical talent and the smarts to know his limitations.  This season I watched him pitch live in 3 starts in addition to film. What amazes me (and makes him really special) is not the 96 and 97 mph FB and the slider you hear about.  This sounds a lot like Franky and that is special on its own merit, but Meyer has a mid 70s curve and a low 80s change (that's his new pitch) that mixes in successfully.  And he is just starting to command those puppies.  And when we are talking 20-25 mph diffs in commanded pitches and a good mix, we are really talking unhittable.  He is special and the Twins have not had a pitcher like him. 

Getting healthy is the big thing here and letting it go.

Edited by Thrylos, 21 August 2014 - 07:20 PM.

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#24 jokin

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 07:23 PM

Not quite sarcasm actually -- thanks for letting me clear that up. I am coming around to the other side of the argument despite jokin's good write up here, the Middlebrooks praise, all the rest of it.

 

I would think Meyer will be at least as good as Gibson but there's gotta be some information the rest of us are not in on, or obviously he would have gotten his chance by now.

 

I'm not sure there's any big secret information, I think it's pretty clear that the Twins intent and prime goal for Meyer this year was to manage his innings/pitches to keep him pitching and healthy for a whole season.  I think Meyer's height/mechanics relative to keeping his arm and shoulder healthy and him pitching effectively and consistent, weighs heavily in the thoughts and plans for the guy the Twins hope ends up as Ace material- pulling the trigger on a promotion just doesn't appear to have been at all in the plan for 2014.

 

Regarding Gibson, if Meyer only ends up at least as good as Gibson, the Twins and Meyer will have badly failed in reaching Meyer's full potential.


#25 DocBauer

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 07:57 PM

After watching May throw the ball everywhere but over the white part of the plate, it's entirely possible that the Twins are coming from a position of knowledge with Meyer.
 
I want to see Meyer up here as much as anybody but after the "delays" in promoting Gibson and May and their subsequent awfulterribhorribleness in MLB the past two seasons, maybe it's time to reconsider exactly how much we know about these guys, particularly in comparison to the Twins' coaching staff that gets to watch them every day.
 
A crazy thought, I know.


This!

I understand saliva inducing expectation and hope for the Twins top pitching prospect to arrive, but come on now. Ryan trades a quality, viable ML talent for a top rotation arm because he doesn't like him, doesn't believe in him, and has a secret desire to crush his spirit and development. And obviously, Meyer being hurt and missing two months last season, along with bouts of wildness this season at times, provides the perfect cover for the evil mustachioed-twisting Ryan to continue on his dastardly dead of tormenting our tortured hero.

We can all pretend to be experts and know what is best to do here, debate, and agree to agree or disagree with the Twins and ourselves. Personally, I want him up, even on a limited basis, just for a taste of ML life and experience out there on the mound. But you'd think there was some conspiracy involved here.

And cancer scare and treatment or not, I think you'd find Ryan visiting each team only once on the season, twice on occasion, is pretty much on par not only for the Twins, but just every other GM in the game. Their job is to run the ML team and supervise the men "beneath" them that are trained, experienced and hired to scout and manage the minors.
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#26 gunnarthor

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 08:28 PM

Should we send May down?  Right now Nolasco has to pitch b/c of that contract. Hughes and Gibson should stay in the rotation.  Milone seemed like a worthy gamble.  My guess is that, if Meyer comes up it'll be in the pen and next year we'll start with those five in the rotation and Meyer would replace the first one when a DL trip comes up.


#27 TheLeviathan

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 08:51 PM

After watching May throw the ball everywhere but over the white part of the plate, it's entirely possible that the Twins are coming from a position of knowledge with Meyer.

 

I want to see Meyer up here as much as anybody but after the "delays" in promoting Gibson and May and their subsequent awfulterribhorribleness in MLB the past two seasons, maybe it's time to reconsider exactly how much we know about these guys, particularly in comparison to the Twins' coaching staff that gets to watch them every day.

 

A crazy thought, I know.

 

Or maybe we as fans need to stop expecting prospects to be all-stars upon debut.  Or even as second year players.  It's a massive adjustment to the big leagues that has had many stars of this game through initially.  I'd argue no amount of AAA starts can prepare you for all the atmosphere that is brought in a start in the majors and getting through those early jitters and hurdles is a typical necessity.  

 

I don't know what they are doing with Meyer, it hasn't made a ton of sense, but I'm not going to bang the drum on this.  Except to say this: Ryan's choice of words here certainly lends itself well to speculation and bewilderment, regardless of what he meant.    

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#28 jokin

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 09:52 PM

This!

I understand saliva inducing expectation and hope for the Twins top pitching prospect to arrive, but come on now. Ryan trades a quality, viable ML talent for a top rotation arm because he doesn't like him, doesn't believe in him, and has a secret desire to crush his spirit and development. And obviously, Meyer being hurt and missing two months last season, along with bouts of wildness this season at times, provides the perfect cover for the evil mustachioed-twisting Ryan to continue on his dastardly dead of tormenting our tortured hero.

We can all pretend to be experts and know what is best to do here, debate, and agree to agree or disagree with the Twins and ourselves. Personally, I want him up, even on a limited basis, just for a taste of ML life and experience out there on the mound. But you'd think there was some conspiracy involved here.

And cancer scare and treatment or not, I think you'd find Ryan visiting each team only once on the season, twice on occasion, is pretty much on par not only for the Twins, but just every other GM in the game. Their job is to run the ML team and supervise the men "beneath" them that are trained, experienced and hired to scout and manage the minors.

 

 

No conspiracy, just a general disagreement about promoting younger starting pitchers and suggesting that something is wrong in their methodology at getting younger pitchers to the majors.  Aaron Gleeman pointed out the facts this year about the Twins and promoting young pitchers:

 

 

 

Here's a list of the starting pitchers the Twins have used this season while refusing to call up 24-year-old prospects Alex Meyer and Trevor May from Triple-A:

Phil Hughes
Kevin Correia
Kyle Gibson
Ricky Nolasco
Sam Deduno
Yohan Pino
Mike Pelfrey
Kris Johnson
Anthony Swarzak
Logan Darnell

[Add Tommy Milone, age 27 to this list since July 31]

 

This season the Twins have used a pitcher younger than 25 years old for a grand total of 12.1 innings, all by reliever Michael Tonkin.

 

[As of July 30]...... Meanwhile, across MLB there have been 447 games started by pitchers younger than Meyer and 504 games started by pitchers younger than May.

 

 

And if bouts of wildness was the drop dead reason for definitely holding Meyer back, right here are 6 Twins pitchers that belie that conclusion, along with their 2014 BB/9 rate (SPs in bold):

 

May          13.00

Pelfrey      6.85

Milone      6.24

Johnson   6.08

Tonkin       4.38

Deduno    3.95

Edited by jokin, 21 August 2014 - 09:54 PM.


#29 Paul Pleiss

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 11:36 PM

Bring up Meyer, throw away pitch count and innings limit and just let the young man see if he can get big league hitters out. I don't care if you put him in the rotation or stuff him in the pen, but bring him up and let him throw the ball to big league hitters. He's good at throwing a baseball, and if he's like any other pitching prospect in baseball, eventually he's going to get hurt. Let's see if he can record some outs for the big league ball club before that happens.

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#30 Thegrin

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 05:14 AM

"Something" doesn't smell right here.  There is "something" we don't know. "Something" we don't understand. "Something" is going on that we aren't seeing. 

 

We can wonder all day about what that "something" is... we may find out after he is called up.  We may not... but "something" is definitely positively going on.