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Today's Philosophical Question: Can we even recognize good baseball anymore?

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#81 TheLeviathan

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 10:02 AM

 

 

 

3. You still insist that statistics are objective. Stats are no more objective than they are gluttonous or lazy or charitable. Giving stats this lofty human status of objectivity serves the purpose, intentional or not, of establishing superiority to an argument. It denigrates equally valuable and credible qualitative information, intentionally or not. As I said, it's my pet peeve at TD.

 

4. Why is it that, in your mind, the guy who sees burnt leather is calling a spade a spade and those of us who see an overdone steak are disingenuous? 

 

 

3.  Stats are objective, at least the ones largely judging team play.  The win-loss record is not subjective.  The team's ERA is not subjective.  (A few dumb error/not-error calls doesn't change this)  The team's run differential is not subjective.  I may employ those stats subjectively, but citing them as objective reinforcers of my position is valid. 

 

4. I fully admitted we're getting better and we're on the right path.  But when I said those good trees are still stuck in a "tough" forest - you took issue.  Isn't that taking issue with the idea that, despite some good performances by some, it's still largely bad baseball?  I would suggest part of the confusion is you seem to want to hold that you do believe it's still "bad baseball" but then everytime someone points out why it's "bad baseball" you have an argument against it.

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#82 Craig Arko

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 10:09 AM

I think there is some confusion (and not just on this board) about the difference between descriptive statistics and inferential statistics.

http://statistics.ab...-Statistics.htm
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#83 TheLeviathan

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 10:39 AM

I think there is some confusion (and not just on this board) about the difference between descriptive statistics and inferential statistics.

http://statistics.ab...-Statistics.htm

 

Thank you, I think this is helpful.  For the record, when I'm referencing statistics it is of the descriptive type precisely because they are showing what has actually happened outside my particular bias.  I find those stats more useful in this sort of discussion.


#84 Thegrin

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 11:53 AM

descriptive statistics and inferential statistics???It is time for a cliche. Since nobody else has said it, I will...Figures lie and lyers figure ...not that any of us is a lyer... but if I wanted to take the time, I could find a bushel of saber-metric apples to prove that we are seeing good baseballor bad baseball, depending on my whim of the moment :)


#85 USAFChief

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 04:53 PM

I'm not sure calling it overdone rather than burnt makes the steak any more palatable.
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#86 birdwatcher

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 06:24 PM

I'm not sure calling it overdone rather than burnt makes the steak any more palatable.

Well duh, Chief. It's more palatable because it's overdone, not burnt leather. You're OK with it if I eat my overdone steak I hope, because it's no skin off my hide if the next person is chewing on burnt leather. Just don't tell me what I'm eating, OK? ;)

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#87 glunn

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 07:47 PM

Moderator note -- my squabbling alarm is sounding.  I think that we can all agree that the Twins have played very badly this year, but there have been significant bright spots.  The rest of the debate seems to be focused on the appropriate level of unhappiness each of us should feel.  That part of the debate seems somewhat futile.  It's OK to continue, but please keep in mind that how we each feel is inherently subjective.

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#88 DocBauer

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 07:56 PM

NOT a part of this discussion overall as too much math makes my head hurt. I was an Enligj major. Lol

But the discussion is interesting, and has made me smile and laugh a few times.

I am, however, reminded of the old line...how does it go now..."there are statistics, damn statistics, and lies" if I remember correctly.

Baseball has forever been, and will be, a game of statistics and numbers. Everything gets crunched nowadays. I feel it's gotten to the point where we're trying to measure a SP taking the mound, on a day game, vs a certain team, with a certain umpire calling the game, if the sky is clear vs cloudy, if Mr Smith and his pitch framing numbers are behind the plate, and if the SP, Mr Jones, had regular Cheerios vs the Honey Nut variety. Did I mention it was a start in July on a Tuesday vs an August start on a Thursday?

My point is statistical information is very important, and helps measure and qualify certain measurables that may help measure or predict an outcome. But they are not necessarily quantitative in final result.

For instance; tell me a team hits on .240 and I can tell you that team is poor offensively and with such a poor BA, is probably a losing team. Now tell me that team is amongst the team leaders in OB% and HR production, and suddenly my perspective shifts, even though I still haven't seen the W-L record yet. Next, you tell me that team is amongst the league leaders in SV% and team SO's, and my measuring stick moves further up the scale, again without seeing a W-L record, further impressed with what this team must be accomplishing. Then I find out their team ERA is in the top third, and I'm convinced this is not only a winning team, but maybe a championship caliber team. Then I find out team defense is at the bottom of the league, they lead the league in un-earned runs, and rank last in BB allowed and suddenly I'm thinking we have a real problem team on our hands without yet seeing the W-L record to this point.

2011, the Twins were supposed to be one of the top teams in the AL. We know what happened. We still don't know for sure what happened in 2012 and 2013, but what we do know, and saw, was a team that seemed to lack any direction, lack of depth of talent and result, and had an awful lot of embarrassing results. Results that forced us, the most dedicated and did-hard fans, to turn the station.

I don't know how the 2014 final record is going to turn out yet. Nor does anyone else. I'm hoping for a strong finish to August, and a fun September for the first time in a long time. Final W-L record for 2014 compared to the last three years? Not a clue.

But here's the difference, statistics be damned. THIS season has been more fun than the last three, and there is no doubt of that. Why? Because tuning in or attending your favorite team in person and seeing them losing 7-1 in the third inning is very different than seeing them playing a competitive game 3-2 in the third inning. Losing is still losing. But watching a promising 23 yo player making things happen in a close game is not only more inviting than watching a struggling 32 yo trying to make a contribution.

The point is that statistics can lie. Or at least prove to be deceptive. The eyes are a powerful tool of observation and information collection. And this team is flat out more fun, more interesting, and more competitive with a brighter future than what we have seen the last few years.
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#89 Sconnie

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 08:21 PM

Brandon, I disagree

plus hitters:
Santana - nope, but could be maybe with some luck could be
Plouffe - nope
Escobar - nope, we have seen his pinnacle it's fine not plus
Dozier - yup I agree
Suzuki - nope
Vargas - maybe, not now, but time will tell

hitters who should be plus next year:
Mauer - yup
Arcia - wishful, but I would like to see it too.



Rotation:
Hughes #3
Gibson #4
Nolasco #5
Millone solid swing-man
Meyer. -- if-- he gets up here could be a very good pitcher
May - could be a decent middle rotation guy, or a good bull pen piece. Maybe more, time will tell.
I'm still looking 1 and 2 rotation spot, a cleanup hitter, a centerfielder and a left fielder. I'm not willing to wait for Buxton, Sano, Berrios, Stewart, and Rosario. Too many gambles and not enough insurance for all of them to work out in the right timeline.

Edited by Sconnie, 24 August 2014 - 08:22 PM.


#90 old nurse

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 07:10 AM

The fans will know good baseball when they see it.

Complaining about the team will go away for about a week after they win a championship and then return. That is some people's nature. Very few teams will be perfect. No team will stay that way. There will always be something to pick at.

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#91 diehardtwinsfan

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 11:31 AM

 

And diehard, Levi and I are still being respectful, even if he wouldn't come to my birthday party. :)

 

I appreciate both of you doing your part in keeping it that way.My note was more to keep the thread on track.

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#92 Craig Arko

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 01:01 PM

Sorry guys, being an educator is in my blood, if not my job description.
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Compromise where you can. Where you can't, don't. Even if everyone is telling you that something wrong is something right. Even if the whole world is telling you to move, it is your duty to plant yourself like a tree, look them in the eye, and say 'No, you move'.