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Year to year SP improvement

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#21 Mike Sixel

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 12:35 PM

Last year, there was no Hughes or Gibson....two guys you were pretty sure would be good again the following year. That is a huge improvement.

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I don't know, it is a site to discuss sports, not airline safety.....maybe we should take it less seriously?


#22 jokin

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 12:41 PM

I assume Meyer will struggle, but improve with more time in the majors.....hence my desire for him to get some of the "nerve based" struggles out of the way this year.

 

Why is this such a hard concept to grasp?  It obviously worked for Gibson, and he is nowhere near the potential MLB pitcher that Meyer can become.

 

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"forcing Twins fans to endure more bitter, baseless, and tiresome cheap shots about the Twins FO."


#23 Mike Frasier Law

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 12:59 PM

Last year, there was no Hughes or Gibson....two guys you were pretty sure would be good again the following year. That is a huge improvement.

 

Indeed! Twins starters this year have accumulated 7.6 WAR. 4.1 comes from Hughes and 2.0 comes from Gibson.

 

Put another way, those two have combined to pitch 259 innings (more than 6 per start), winning 20 games, and pitching to roughly a 4 ERA.

 

How good were our top two pitchers in the last few years you ask?

 

2013 the Twins didn't have a starter win 10 games. Correia pitched 185 innings and Pelfrey came in second at 152. Those two were our two best starters, compiling 3.6 WAR combined.

 

2012 the Twins had ACE Scott Diamond win 12 games while pitching 173 innings (good for 2.3 WAR). We had no other starting pitcher even hit 100 innings. It's hard to say who our second best pitcher was. Deduno won 6 games pitching 79 innings. Liriano pitched 92 innings, accumulating .9 WAR, but went 3-10 with a 5.34 ERA. Blackburn actually pitched the second most innings at 98 - good for a 4-9 record, 7.39 ERA and -.8 WAR.

 

2011 the Twins didn't have a 10 game winner. But we had Pavano pitch 222 innings with a 4.30 ERA and 2.7 WAR. Baker had a 3.21 ERA and 2.8 WAR, but only pitched 131 innings. Duensing pitched 156 innings, but also had a horrific ERA (5.24).

 

Having two good (as in better than average) starting pitchers doesn't make a playoff caliber team, but it's been awhile since we experienced the feeling of having two. Heck, what Correia has done this year as our 3rd best pitcher (123 IP, 4.96 ERA, 0.7 WAR) is arguably better than our #2 pitchers for the last three years.


#24 Mike Sixel

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 01:13 PM

Wow, 2012 was bad.

  • Mike Frasier Law likes this

I don't know, it is a site to discuss sports, not airline safety.....maybe we should take it less seriously?


#25 kab21

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 07:14 PM

Meyer's promotion shouldn't be based on whether or not he is one of the best 5 starters but rather that it is the right time for him to be promoted.He's missed time due to injury, he's being used with kid gloves (both pitch counts and innings limits), he has walk issues and he has a really high season.He very easily could be working throwing more of X pitch to certain batters and that kind of development stops when he is promoted to the majors.In the majors you need to use your best stuff to survive and development becomes secondary.

 

May is a different story.He has some issues although he has answered some of them but he has spent almost 3 full seasons at AA/AAA and it's about time to find out if he will sink or swim.

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Is 2016 2017 2018 the year that a good pitching prospect is truly blocked by 5 good pitchers in the starting rotation? 

 


#26 stringer bell

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 09:23 PM

Two guys have earned rotation spots for 2015. That is progress. There are several candidates for the last three spots. There has been progress.


#27 DocBauer

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 09:58 PM

Progress is always relative.

Forget disappointment and frustration for a moment, as well as bad luck, (cap tip to Nick), does anyone think that a healthy Nolasco won't be a solid part of the 2015 rotation? Maybe even...dare I say it...a good performer? Put him along with Hughes and Gibson and you have...(baited breath)...a pretty solid to good looking 1,2,3?

Of course, we need two more starters to finish things out. So, I guess we'll look to Diamond and Walters and.....wait....what? They're not around any longer? What?

You mean the Twins went out and acquired two top SP prospects who may be better than anyone on the list above, and anybody they've had in years? Wow!

Why aren't they up now? The Twins say they want them to develop a bit more to reach a level of consistency where they can achieve more permanent success? Ok. I'm disappointed, but I guess I understand. Can they still come up this season to gain some valuable experience? They can? They might? They probably will? AWESOME!

What's that? They also recently traded for a ML experienced LHSP who has a short but solid resume that could be a solid 4th or 5th starter now and next year? Cool. And say what? They also have a young 20yo kid in AA who has lightening in his arm who might be ready sometime next season? Now I'm just giddy with excitement!

And you say there are a couple LH's and RH's that have a chance to contribute as 5th starters or pen options, just in case someone isn't quite ready yet, but otherwise could provide insurance at AAA?

Oh wait, you're kidding me here right? There's actually some quality arms that may be ready to further improve and deepen the bullpen?

WOW! This doesn't sound like the same Twins team I knew a couple years ago.

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#28 Willihammer

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 10:14 PM

Progress is always relative.

Forget disappointment and frustration for a moment, as well as bad luck, (cap tip to Nick), does anyone think that a healthy Nolasco won't be a solid part of the 2015 rotation? Maybe even...dare I say it...a good performer? Put him along with Hughes and Gibson and you have...(baited breath)...a pretty solid to good looking 1,2,3?

On the other hand, who would be surprised if Nolasco's elbow flares up again this summer and he needs to have TJS or worse, arthroscopic surgery to remove lose bodies or something. Recovery from that seems to take forever.

 

Here's a thought - after injuries to Pelfrey and Nolasco, did the Twins hang onto Correia this summer with the intent to re-sign him?

Well, there's that.

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#29 DocBauer

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 10:26 PM

On the other hand, who would be surprised if Nolasco's elbow flares up again this summer and he needs to have TJS or worse, arthroscopic surgery to remove lose bodies or something. Recovery from that seems to take forever.
 
Here's a thought - after injuries to Pelfrey and Nolasco, did the Twins hang onto Correia this summer with the intent to re-sign him?


No.

All reports thus far is Nolasco is OK and just needs to stretch out.

But...but...if there is something missed and the worse case scenario pops up, based on things Pohlad has said recently, the open payroll, and frustration mounting, mark my words...the Twins make a major move this off season.

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#30 kab21

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 09:30 AM

I would be a rich man if I had a dollar for every time a pitcher got TJ after going the rest and rehab route with a strained elbow.

 

It is the correct decision since it usually only delays the inevitable by a couple of months though. 

 

The Twins are certainly in a better spot pitching wise for several years.Before this year we tried to convince ourselves that pitchers with marginal stuff (Diamond, Worley, etc...) were #3's.This year it looks like we have 2 bonafide #3's and the prospects look better and are closer than they have ever been.

Is 2016 2017 2018 the year that a good pitching prospect is truly blocked by 5 good pitchers in the starting rotation? 

 


#31 Paul Pleiss

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Posted 08 August 2014 - 12:13 AM

The Twins are improving their rotation, slowly, but surely. I still have faith in Big Pelf, unrationally, but hope is still there for him to be league average in 2015. Maybe he can be our next Kevin Correia, veteran guy who logs lots of innings. That's not too much to hope for. Gibson and Hughes shoudl continue to be better than league average.

 

That's three guys. Nolasco hopefully is back, and Meyer and May should be in the mix as well. maybe they push Pelf out of the picture or somebody is hurt (Nolasco?), but I'm excited about the future of the pitching in Minnesota.

 

It's still not good, But it's moving in the right direction.

 

Now if only they could get rid of that pesky Rick Anderson, my personal nemesis.

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#32 Shane Wahl

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Posted 08 August 2014 - 12:53 AM

Trevor May should have already been up. Alex Meyer should be up soon to join the bullpen.


#33 Oxtung

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Posted 08 August 2014 - 02:32 AM

Progress is always relative.

Forget disappointment and frustration for a moment, as well as bad luck, (cap tip to Nick), does anyone think that a healthy Nolasco won't be a solid part of the 2015 rotation? Maybe even...dare I say it...a good performer? Put him along with Hughes and Gibson and you have...(baited breath)...a pretty solid to good looking 1,2,3?

Of course, we need two more starters to finish things out. So, I guess we'll look to Diamond and Walters and.....wait....what? They're not around any longer? What?

You mean the Twins went out and acquired two top SP prospects who may be better than anyone on the list above, and anybody they've had in years? Wow!

Why aren't they up now? The Twins say they want them to develop a bit more to reach a level of consistency where they can achieve more permanent success? Ok. I'm disappointed, but I guess I understand. Can they still come up this season to gain some valuable experience? They can? They might? They probably will? AWESOME!

What's that? They also recently traded for a ML experienced LHSP who has a short but solid resume that could be a solid 4th or 5th starter now and next year? Cool. And say what? They also have a young 20yo kid in AA who has lightening in his arm who might be ready sometime next season? Now I'm just giddy with excitement!

And you say there are a couple LH's and RH's that have a chance to contribute as 5th starters or pen options, just in case someone isn't quite ready yet, but otherwise could provide insurance at AAA?

Oh wait, you're kidding me here right? There's actually some quality arms that may be ready to further improve and deepen the bullpen?

WOW! This doesn't sound like the same Twins team I knew a couple years ago.

 

If Hughes, Gibson, Nolasco are our 1-3 pitchers next year we are a sub-.500 team again.On a competitive team they are 3-5.Will the Twins bring in a legit top of the rotation pitcher? Will May and Meyer get a shot early next season?Will May or Meyer pitch the way we hope and become the top of the rotation pitchers we hope for? I don't know the answers to these questions but we had better hope some of these come true or we are in for another long season in 2015.

 

On a side note, outside of Detroit the starting pitching is very up in the air in the central next season.The Indians could have a very nice rotation if somethings come together but KC and the Sox have big holes just like the Twins.
 


#34 USAFChief

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Posted 08 August 2014 - 06:32 AM

Maybe he can be our next Kevin Correia, veteran guy who logs lots of innings.


Lots of innings?

I am not the paranoid you're looking for.


#35 TheLeviathan

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Posted 08 August 2014 - 06:51 AM

Lots of innings?

 

This just goes to show how infectious Dick Bremer's ideas can be if you listen enough.