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Article: Twins Claim Jordan Schafer from Braves

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#61 goulik

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Posted 03 August 2014 - 11:12 PM

Geez people, you have all watched the minors and MLB team this year. I have read 20 complaints about "shouldn't we try something better" without an in house suggestion of what is better. Rosario, in house suspension; Hicks, not ready (we tried that). Parmalee was in center, Parma freaking lee!! Quantify the harm or lay off please.
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#62 nicksaviking

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Posted 03 August 2014 - 11:21 PM

I think the only question is if he can survive a month of roster crunches long enough to make it to September when rosters expand and he can sit on the bench unnoticed for the rest of the year.  

 

My money's on "no" as the Rochester/Minneapolis AAAA pitcher rotation will inevitably hit a snag at some point and the team will have to go to a 3 man bench, even if for only a day or two.  

 

I have no problem with Parmelee as the backup CF.  Like the old saying goes, if your backup CF lacks range, does he really miss more balls if no one is around to see it? 

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#63 goulik

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Posted 03 August 2014 - 11:45 PM

Touché

#64 stringer bell

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 04:45 AM

In year four of consecutive 90 loss seasons, this is the type of move the Twins should have to make? Patching holes with waiver wire castoffs? Castoffs with no chance of being an actual asset?

Shouldn't there be some actual talent to try by now?

Actual talent in CF: The Twins have let go of Presley and Mastroianni, two guys that would qualify as 4th OF, who could cover center. They acquired and just recently traded Sam Fuld, another 4th OF, who did well for the Twins and netted them a guy who figures to get at least 50 starts for the Twins in the duration of his contract. They've suffered through the frustration of Aaron Hicks and seen one other prospect (Rosario) take a step back after serving a 50-game suspension. Their top overall prospect is a CF, but has missed over half a season with wrist injuries. That's quite a drain at one position. The answer has been converting a shortstop on the fly and now acquiring Schafer.
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#65 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 05:54 AM

In year four of consecutive 90 loss seasons, this is the type of move the Twins should have to make? Patching holes with waiver wire castoffs? Castoffs with no chance of being an actual asset?

Shouldn't there be some actual talent to try by now?

 

Rebuilding teams have to make this kind of move all the time. If the team legitimately cared about winning, they wouldn't have traded their centerfielder for a starter three days ago but it was the right move to make. In the past 24 months, Terry Ryan has flipped three centerfielders for starting pitchers and even that wouldn't have caused a problem if not for the simultaneous setbacks of three top 100 centerfield prospects. Had any one of those guys not floundered, gotten suspended, or gotten injured, we'd all be excited to see them trot on to Target Field in August, not worry about scrapheap pickups for two months.

 

And despite Rosario's suspension and Hicks' struggles, the Twins could call them up and give them a shot instead of Shafer... But it's not the right move to make.

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#66 SweetOne69

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 06:30 AM

Darnell optioned to open spot on 25 man.  Will May take his next start?

 

With the off day today, they don't need the 5th starter until Saturday.  I'm almost positive that it will be Milone.


#67 Don't Feed the Greed Guy

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 07:16 AM

I like the move, for many of the reasons mentioned above:

 

1) Shafer could click... at the very least he's an excellent pinch run option.

 

2) I'd rather see our elite CF prospects play every day in the high minors until they are ready. Hicks should get one more shot on Opening Day, 2015. If he doesn't make it, Shafer & Santana can still hold down CF until Buxton's train reaches Target Field Station.

 

3) Santana gets more starts at SS building chemistry with Dozier and the rest of the infield, so they can be a MLB-ready middle infield by Opening Day, 2015.

 

4) The Fuld pickup/parlay for Milone built some of my trust in Terry Ryan's "buy low" capacity, at least until Jason Bartlett calls TR and volunteers to come back...

 

5) Shafer gets one more shot--August, September, and Spring Training 2015--that seems like a reasonable gamble, given the current status of the Twins outfield.


#68 mike wants wins

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 07:44 AM

I hope to never see Shafer after this year. He's terrible. But, for this year, given what has happened, it is what it is.

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What I just typed is probably an opinion, not a fact. I mean, I'm usually right, so you should maybe assume it is or will be a fact soon, but that's up to you. :)


#69 JB_Iowa

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 08:09 AM

http://blogs.twincities.com/twins/
Gardy's quote in the linked article says everything I wanted it to regarding Schafer, Hicks, and Santana. Kinda shocking really... Being open about finding fill ins and what they're looking for in each player.

 

Gardenhire:

 

 “My preference is get (him) to Triple-A and see what happens there and see if he can dominate that with some veteran pitchers, some guys that spin the ball a little bit better than they do in Double-A. Get him to Triple-A and let’s see how he does there. Then you bring him up here. I think he still has to go there and prove that he can play there.”

 

 

For me, the problem is that they aren't getting Hicks up to AAA.  Hard to prove yourself if you aren't given the opportunity.  Time is getting short.

 

I really don't care one way or the other about the Schafer pick-up.

 

I also think some of you are shortening the Buxton timeline far too much.  I have to see him healthy and staying on the field before I can even make a guess about when he might be with the major league club.

Edited by JB_Iowa, 04 August 2014 - 08:09 AM.


#70 teekz

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 08:32 AM

I guess a one month flyer on a former prospect isn't terrible. Rather see Parm, Arcia and Santana get most the playing time though

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#71 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 08:51 AM

Rather see Parm, Arcia and Santana get most the playing time though

 

I'm guessing that Schafer is a fallback option and won't get much in the way of playing time. He's the kind of guy you stash at the back of the bench and forget about until you need him, if you need him at all.

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#72 drjim

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 08:53 AM

I guess a one month flyer on a former prospect isn't terrible. Rather see Parm, Arcia and Santana get most the playing time though

 

And they will. Schafer really isn't going to play all that much unless they really want to get Santana back to SS.

Papers...business papers.

#73 biggentleben

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 09:51 AM

5) Shafer gets one more shot--August, September, and Spring Training 2015--that seems like a reasonable gamble, given the current status of the Twins outfield.

 

If he's around in spring training, the Twins had to pay him arbitration, so I would guess the shot is August-September, and then if he doesn't do it then, he's gone.

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#74 birdwatcher

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 10:06 AM

In year four of consecutive 90 loss seasons, this is the type of move the Twins should have to make? Patching holes with waiver wire castoffs? Castoffs with no chance of being an actual asset?

Shouldn't there be some actual talent to try by now?

There IS some actual talent, and it's being tried right now. It just so happens that the best CF prospect in all of baseball is a year away because of injury, and they decided this guy was a better alternative right now than Farris or Wilkin Ramirez or Daniel Ortiz, who are manning the outfield for a Rochester team that's ten games over .500. To suggest that one waiver wire castoff move indicates a failed rebuild is nonsensical to me. If one wants to complain about losing Mastro and Presley due to sloppy roster management, fine. Some bitched about that awful waiver wire castoff Fuld too. And the Fuld acquisition said zero about the rebuild just like this move. Swapping him out for Milone, on the other hand, says something about the rebuild. 

Edited by birdwatcher, 04 August 2014 - 10:19 AM.

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#75 old nurse

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 11:00 AM

Geez people, you have all watched the minors and MLB team this year. I have read 20 complaints about "shouldn't we try something better" without an in house suggestion of what is better. Rosario, in house suspension; Hicks, not ready (we tried that). Parmalee was in center, Parma freaking lee!! Quantify the harm or lay off please.

Quantify the benefits of Schaffer.. That is the issue. Fuld is what he is. For 2014 he played up to his abilities. Other years he did not. Schaffer is no Fuld. Shaffer would look to be more like Hicks at the major league level


#76 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 11:16 AM

Quantify the benefits of Schaffer.. That is the issue. Fuld is what he is. For 2014 he played up to his abilities. Other years he did not. Schaffer is no Fuld. Shaffer would look to be more like Hicks at the major league level

 

The benefit of Schafer is that you don't care if he rots on the bench and receives 50 PAs over two months.


#77 spycake

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 11:29 AM

If he's around in spring training, the Twins had to pay him arbitration, so I would guess the shot is August-September, and then if he doesn't do it then, he's gone.

Not quite -- arbitration awards are only 1/6 guaranteed before March 15, I believe.  That's how the Royals signed Bonifacio last winter to $3.5 mil (actually avoided arbitration, but same rule applied), and were able to cut him in February and only pay him ~$600k.

 

Given that Schafer has been terrible this year, he probably won't get much (if any) raise in arbitration, say $1.5 mil?  Then the Twins could cut him by March 15th (I think) and only owe him $250k.

 

The 40-man roster spot over the winter should be the more valuable thing.  I wouldn't be surprised if we cut him and tried to re-sign him to a minor league deal.


#78 TNTwinsFan

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 11:33 AM

I hope Jordan becomes the next Danny Santana-like surprise...but, with about 1000 PA, I doubt he will be.

#79 spycake

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 11:39 AM

The benefit of Schafer is that you don't care if he rots on the bench and receives 50 PAs over two months.

The flip side of that, of course, is that due to their record, the 2014 Twins shouldn't really care if Parmelee has to play CF for 50 PA over 2 months, or Hermann/Polanco/Escobar/Nunez/Arcia etc.  And in less than a month, they can all be on the active roster at the same time too.

 

That said, I'm all for taking a flier on Schafer.  I'd even be willing to sit Escobar some to get a look at Schafer in CF (and by extension, Santana at SS).


#80 biggentleben

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 12:10 PM

Not quite -- arbitration awards are only 1/6 guaranteed before March 15, I believe.  That's how the Royals signed Bonifacio last winter to $3.5 mil (actually avoided arbitration, but same rule applied), and were able to cut him in February and only pay him ~$600k.

 

Given that Schafer has been terrible this year, he probably won't get much (if any) raise in arbitration, say $1.5 mil?  Then the Twins could cut him by March 15th (I think) and only owe him $250k.

 

The 40-man roster spot over the winter should be the more valuable thing.  I wouldn't be surprised if we cut him and tried to re-sign him to a minor league deal.

 

My point was that the Twins would have to carry him all winter and offer him arbitration in order to have him in spring training.  For a team rebuilding, they should either figure out he's part of the future the rest of 2014 or let him go.  It doesn't make sense to clog the 40-man.  I have a feeling if they cut him loose, he'd have plenty of interest because he has a legit MLB skill on the basepaths.

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#81 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 12:19 PM

The flip side of that, of course, is that due to their record, the 2014 Twins shouldn't really care if Parmelee has to play CF for 50 PA over 2 months, or Hermann/Polanco/Escobar/Nunez/Arcia etc.  And in less than a month, they can all be on the active roster at the same time too.

 

Yeah, that's true... But I don't blame the Twins for picking up a CF option if Santana goes down with injury. Things would get really ugly if you had to roll out that crew in center for two or three weeks.

 

Either way, I just don't see any reason why anyone would be excited about or against this move. It's mostly irrelevant.

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#82 old nurse

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 12:34 PM

The benefit of Schafer is that you don't care if he rots on the bench and receives 50 PAs over two months.

Gardenhire tends to use all of his players regularly. The option to have someone at the end of the bench just sitting there fades quickly. How many games did Bartlet get as the 25th man? (Yes I am too lazy to look that up)


#83 spycake

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 12:38 PM

My point was that the Twins would have to carry him all winter and offer him arbitration in order to have him in spring training.  For a team rebuilding, they should either figure out he's part of the future the rest of 2014 or let him go.  It doesn't make sense to clog the 40-man.  I have a feeling if they cut him loose, he'd have plenty of interest because he has a legit MLB skill on the basepaths.

I don't know -- for someone else to claim Schafer from the Twins, they'd have to give him a roster spot through the winter and arbitration too.  I don't see that happening for a 28 year old "proven" pinch runner, particularly if he doesn't inspire the Twins to keep him on the 40-man roster after this 2014 audition.

 

And if he clears waivers, he's pretty much up for grabs as a non-roster minor league invite to spring training, Twins included.


#84 spycake

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 12:45 PM

Gardenhire tends to use all of his players regularly. The option to have someone at the end of the bench just sitting there fades quickly. How many games did Bartlet get as the 25th man? (Yes I am too lazy to look that up)

Bartlett played 3 out of 6 games, but no starts and only 4 PA.  And his last 3 PA came in an early-game emergency appearance, subbing for an injured Willingham in the 2nd inning.

 

That's basically been Schafer's usage in 2014 too (pinch runner, pinch hit for the pitcher, etc.), averaging less than 1 PA per team game.


#85 biggentleben

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 03:52 PM

I don't know -- for someone else to claim Schafer from the Twins, they'd have to give him a roster spot through the winter and arbitration too.  I don't see that happening for a 28 year old "proven" pinch runner, particularly if he doesn't inspire the Twins to keep him on the 40-man roster after this 2014 audition.

 

And if he clears waivers, he's pretty much up for grabs as a non-roster minor league invite to spring training, Twins included.

 

True, but he was claimed by one of the first teams eligible to claim him this time.  He would have a good chance of being claimed by someone as a 5th outfielder/pinch runner type.  The Braves needed him to be more, and he wasn't able to be that.

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#86 spycake

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 05:27 PM

True, but he was claimed by one of the first teams eligible to claim him this time. He would have a good chance of being claimed by someone as a 5th outfielder/pinch runner type. The Braves needed him to be more, and he wasn't able to be that.


Midseason waiver claims are easier, there just isn't much opportunity cost to use the roster spot temporarily.

November 2012, he was waived and almost every NL team passed on him. And he was barely a year removed from being part of the Bourn trade then, and actually could have been outrighted to AAA if he cleared waivers.

I am highly skeptical that anyone will have room for an older, more limited, more expensive, and less flexible player just before free agency and the Rule 5 draft.
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#87 biggentleben

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 06:13 PM

Midseason waiver claims are easier, there just isn't much opportunity cost to use the roster spot temporarily.

November 2012, he was waived and almost every NL team passed on him. And he was barely a year removed from being part of the Bourn trade then, and actually could have been outrighted to AAA if he cleared waivers.

I am highly skeptical that anyone will have room for an older, more limited, more expensive, and less flexible player just before free agency and the Rule 5 draft.

 

Part of why he lasted so long in 2012 was that he had no options left, so any team that claimed him would have to keep him on the major league team, so it's a bit disingenuous to infer he lasted a long time because of talent.  I don't disagree that he's just as likely to clear waivers this offseason as he is to be claimed, but I do think on a subjective view that someone will give him a shot even then, especially with a whole offseason to fix what they believe ails him.

 

Of course, what really ails him is that he has two strikes from PED and drugs of abuse and never recovered well from a wrist injury suffered after a very positive start to his 2009 debut season (ruining the celebration of the division rival Phillies following their 2008 World Series victory with a home run to lead off the season). His wrist has never gotten better, and he can't risk the drugs that helped him get where he was.  Guys like that, though, seem to get more chances than a guy who simply never produced at 100% health.

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#88 TheLeviathan

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 06:30 PM

Yeah, that's true... But I don't blame the Twins for picking up a CF option if Santana goes down with injury. Things would get really ugly if you had to roll out that crew in center for two or three weeks.

 

Either way, I just don't see any reason why anyone would be excited about or against this move. It's mostly irrelevant.

 

I'm a little excited because at least this wasn't a burned out former Twin with no upside.  Baby steps.

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#89 Pius Jefferson

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 08:03 PM

A part of me gets a feeling there's going to be a Jordan Schafer released thread before the end of the year. 

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#90 spycake

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 06:37 AM

Part of why he lasted so long in 2012 was that he had no options left, so any team that claimed him would have to keep him on the major league team, so it's a bit disingenuous to infer he lasted a long time because of talent.  I don't disagree that he's just as likely to clear waivers this offseason as he is to be claimed, but I do think on a subjective view that someone will give him a shot even then, especially with a whole offseason to fix what they believe ails him.

I didn't mean to infer he lasted a long time on waivers in 2012 due to (lack of) talent alone.  In fact, I noted that his roster status situation was actually BETTER in November 2012 than it is now -- he still had less than 3 years service time, so someone could have claimed him and tried to pass him through waivers again to assign him outright to AAA (much like Hendriks this past offseason, or Parmelee, Worley, etc. this past spring).  Now, a claiming team has no alternative to guaranteeing him a 40-man spot the whole winter, a 25-man spot in the spring, and a ~$1.5 mil arb salary (excepting letting him become a free agent again).

 

Letting him pass through waivers this offseason, become a free agent, then trying to sign him to a minor league deal if interested, offers a TON more flexibility for the team.  He may still have interested suitors, but I'm not sure anyone would be willing to surrender that flexibility for a 28 y.o. pinch runner.

 

 

Guys like that, though, seem to get more chances than a guy who simply never produced at 100% health.

Agreed, and that's how he's spent 6 years on 40-man rosters and accumulated 4.6 years of MLB service time despite a career 68 OPS+ and negative defensive WAR (plus a career .571 OPS at AAA to boot).  But there's a limit to chances without any kind of production, and I think getting DFA'd midseason just shy of one's 28th birthday is a pretty clear indicator that your guaranteed MLB roster spot days are over.

Edited by spycake, 05 August 2014 - 06:39 AM.




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