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Vance Worley Tosses Best Game Of Career.

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#1 SweetOne69

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 02:11 PM

I realize that Worley has only pitched in 8 games (7 starts) for the Pirates, but last night he tossed a 4-hit shutout on the road against the Giants.  He has a 2.54 ERA this year.

 

Small Sample size or is Anderson overrated?

Edited by SweetOne69, 29 July 2014 - 02:11 PM.


#2 Danchat

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 08:34 PM

1. Worley was injured in 2013. Apparently the Twins staff didn't know this/Worley hid it/neither side knew about it.

2. Being injured doesn't explain it all, though. He was healthy this spring training and tanked. It was awful. It's clear to me that the Pittsburgh staff is superior to us. First, they got Liriano to pitch better. He's not doing as well due to a drop in velocity which may be due to an injury. Second, Worley suddenly is much, much better. That is more than enough evidence to prove that the Pirates pitching coaches know what they are doing and the Twins couldn't figure these guys out. If we keep getting outfoxed by other pitching staffs, clearly we need to replace ours.

 

For example, if Liam Hendriks ends up doing something for the Royals, I'm going to get ticked off. As in I'm going to start an article about why we should fire Anderson.


#3 beckmt

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 08:51 PM

It does seem like more ex Twins pitchers are doing well after leaving here.  Jury is still out, but if the trend continues, I could see the basis for firing Anderson, that would also probably take Gardy with him


#4 Pius Jefferson

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 09:21 PM

Plenty of deserved criticism for Anderson, but I don't think Worley is in that category. If there's anyone to blame it's the organization for having too much confidence in a national league pitcher who doesn't have velocity on his fastball.


#5 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 07:17 AM

Not defending Anderson because I don't think he's a particularly good pitching coach but...

 

Worley is getting by on dumb luck right now.

 

His swinging strike % is 4.6. Kevin Correia's is 5.0. Kyle Gibson, a pitcher many of us were afraid was getting by on smoke and mirrors, has an 8.1% swinging strike rate.

 

He's not a strong groundball pitcher, as his GB% is 46.7, which is actually lower than last year by a point.

 

His BABIP is .261. That's going to skyrocket, as his career mark is .317.

 

Vance Worley's stat line looks more like 2013 Andrew Albers than it does a legitimately good pitcher.

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#6 JB_Iowa

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 07:20 AM

Worley is getting by on dumb luck right now.

 

So Nick is right .... with the Twins they have bad luck ... with the Pirates dumb luck.

 

I guess I'll take dumb luck every time.

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#7 big dog

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 07:29 AM

1. Worley was injured in 2013. Apparently the Twins staff didn't know this/Worley hid it/neither side knew about it.

2. Being injured doesn't explain it all, though. He was healthy this spring training and tanked. It was awful. It's clear to me that the Pittsburgh staff is superior to us. First, they got Liriano to pitch better. He's not doing as well due to a drop in velocity which may be due to an injury. Second, Worley suddenly is much, much better. That is more than enough evidence to prove that the Pirates pitching coaches know what they are doing and the Twins couldn't figure these guys out. If we keep getting outfoxed by other pitching staffs, clearly we need to replace ours.

 

For example, if Liam Hendriks ends up doing something for the Royals, I'm going to get ticked off. As in I'm going to start an article about why we should fire Anderson.

 If Hendricks does well with the Royals then the Blue Jays and Orioles should also get ticked off.  They jumped off the Hendricks train a lot quicker than the Twins did.

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#8 Winston Smith

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 07:30 AM

 "The best luck of all is the luck you make for yourself."

 

Douglas MacArthur

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May all our prospects be All Stars and the beer be free.


#9 nicksaviking

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 07:54 AM

Not defending Anderson because I don't think he's a particularly good pitching coach but...

 

Worley is getting by on dumb luck right now.

 

His swinging strike % is 4.6. Kevin Correia's is 5.0. Kyle Gibson, a pitcher many of us were afraid was getting by on smoke and mirrors, has an 8.1% swinging strike rate.

 

He's not a strong groundball pitcher, as his GB% is 46.7, which is actually lower than last year by a point.

 

His BABIP is .261. That's going to skyrocket, as his career mark is .317.

 

Vance Worley's stat line looks more like 2013 Andrew Albers than it does a legitimately good pitcher.

Everything about this screams luck, but this is also what he was doing when he was pitching well for the Phillies.  His GB% was low and his swing/strike % is also low, but those were the red flags when the Twins traded for him. 

 

His overall contact% is high and his zone contact% is at an all-time high, but his outside zone contact% is also high as is the outside zone swing%.  I haven't seen him pitch, but if he's getting high contact and high swing rates both inside and outside the zone, it seems to me that indicates he's locating well and peppering the corners.  He's throwing a lot of strikes, but when he's not, they're close enough to induce swings, and of course pitches on the edge of the zone or just off of it would naturally produce a low BABIP.  Basically it's the PTC approach the Twins seem to embrace.


#10 Dman

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 08:16 AM

It is so painful to see a pitcher we gave up for nothing do so well especially when our own pitching has been so bad.  I was one of the first ones to say Worley needed to go as his pitching was horrendous.  I mean at the time I would have rather had Albers or Pino out there.  The hits he was giving up were smoked and he rarely missed a bat.  I could see a game here or there where maybe he got lucky but he seems to be getting more consistent to me.  Not that he will throw a shutout every game but it looks like he will actually become a solid major league pitcher which is all we were hoping for when we got him.

 

 

Gotta tip my hat to Pirates Pitching staff and question the guys we have.  We appear to be missing something because he never pitched like that for us.  Not once.

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#11 mike wants wins

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 08:39 AM

The odd part in all of this was just giving up on him. A guy TR had just traded for. A guy that TR made the centerpiece of his SP rebuild just a year earlier. Clearly, stuff happened that made that a good idea, but it is hard to believe they just gave up on him to keep the guys they kept around, on a purely baseball basis........

 

Brock, logically your post makes sense. Rhetorically, it just looks like more excuse making for the Twins. Like when Suzuki should not be judged on the pitcher success at all, because these pitchers are just bad, like they are bad because of bad luck, not bad decisions.

 

Who would you rather have in your minor leagues, Pino, or Worley?

Lighten up Francis....

#12 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 08:51 AM

So Nick is right .... with the Twins they have bad luck ... with the Pirates dumb luck.

 

I guess I'll take dumb luck every time.

 

Ugh, really? When a pitcher has abnormally low peripherals but his basic stats look good, it's dumb luck, not talent.

 

No one called Andrew Albers' 2013 "bad luck". It was a guy pitching way over his head and he ultimately came to earth because of it. The year before, many predicted the same for Scott Diamond and guess what, Scott Diamond also collapsed spectacularly. Two years before that, it was Brian Duensing.

 

Vance Worley, if he continues pitching with the peripherals he's currently sporting, will also collapse spectacularly. Nobody can sustain above average - or even average - performances with those peripherals.


#13 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 08:53 AM

Brock, logically your post makes sense. Rhetorically, it just looks like more excuse making for the Twins. Like when Suzuki should not be judged on the pitcher success at all, because these pitchers are just bad, like they are bad because of bad luck, not bad decisions.

 

Who would you rather have in your minor leagues, Pino, or Worley?

 

Worley and I said that at the time. I didn't agree with his release.

 

I understand why they did it but I didn't think it was a smart move.  Maybe not dumb so much as "pointless". Why get rid of a 25 year old with marginal upside when the organization is littered with 30 year old junk?


#14 Hosken Bombo Disco

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 09:06 AM

I did watch Worley pitch most of this game. Somewhere between brilliance and dumb luck. None of his 3 strikeouts came after the first time through the order. One of the double plays was a pitch high and in after the catcher set up outside. Plenty of routine outs but a good share of liners too. Hunter Pence destroyed a pitch in the 9th for a triple but it was with two outs, so didn't score. As far as four-hit complete game shutouts go, this had to be one of the ugliest. :)

However, give him credit. He was throwing a variety of pitches, and not using his flat fastball much (I am remembering by eyeball and not pitchfx data). He was all over the strike zone but not wild. He was getting inside the SF batters heads, which is one way to do it. Their plan was to come up swinging against him, and maybe Pittsburgh's staff knew that and adjusted for him. So they've really put Worley in position to succeed. This will probably be his career MLB moment. He should still pitch passably well for the rest of the year if he maintains his confidence and doesn't let a bad start rattle him. The Bucs are in a pennant race and I can't help but be curious to watch Worley and Frankie on occasion.

#15 Brandon

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 09:07 AM

I realize that Worley has only pitched in 8 games (7 starts) for the Pirates, but last night he tossed a 4-hit shutout on the road against the Giants.  He has a 2.54 ERA this year.

 

Small Sample size or is Anderson overrated?

 

Remember when Worely was traded because he had a poor attitude here, was out of shape, and he was the 6th starting pitcher for Rochester.  We let him go so he could have an opportunity.  As far as the answer to your questions, Worely came back to soon from injury.  He had a chance to be the number one starter on our staff so he tried to run with it and since we had no other options we let him.  In retrospect the Twins should have moved slower with Worely but with no other options we didn't.  When he failed he blamed everyone but himself and now that he is doing better he can say see I wasn't ready, I was pushed last year.  But the reality is he didn't say a word about not being ready and most of the blame falls on him. 

 

As a community we were not disappointed he left as he was seen as baggage and his spring training was atrocious.  Worely is not the player I would use to call Anderson a success or failure as Worely is not likely to have long term success.  I would call Anderson a success because he laid out what he wants pitchers to do (throw strikes and not be beaten by a walk) and the Twins continually give up the fewest or are in the top 3 in fewest free passes.  So that objective is not only met but exceeded.  He helped other pitchers succeed here Milton, Santana, Liriano (off and on again) Gibson is succeeding, Hughes, Silva (transitioned from reliever to successful starter) helped Perkins to become a successful reliever, probably behind making Guerrier a successful reliever, so there is a pretty strong list that goes on. 


#16 mike wants wins

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 09:15 AM

Being one of the 5 worst SP staffs three years in a row is not on the coach at all? I want that job.

Lighten up Francis....

#17 ashburyjohn

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 09:40 AM

A guy TR had just traded for. A guy that TR made the centerpiece of his SP rebuild just a year earlier.

A guy they had just passed through waivers and could stash at AAA for as long as they liked. 

 

I realize there was an oversupply of arms for the available innings at Rochester.  It baffled me then, and still does, that selling Worley for pennies would be the solution.


#18 TheLeviathan

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 09:53 AM

A guy they had just passed through waivers and could stash at AAA for as long as they liked. 

 

I realize there was an oversupply of arms for the available innings at Rochester.  It baffled me then, and still does, that selling Worley for pennies would be the solution.

 

Regardless of anything else, this is the part that made the least amount of sense.  It was clearly a personality thing.  (Which, to the Twins defense, Worley seems like a punk.)


#19 mike wants wins

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 09:59 AM

I agree it is likely there were non-baseball reasons for the move. I would have preferred they just try to reclaim him, and then deal him with a tiny bit of value, but I can see where this might have been a good idea for the Twins......but w/o any knowledge of any of that, we can only guess.

Lighten up Francis....

#20 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 10:03 AM

Regardless of anything else, this is the part that made the least amount of sense.  It was clearly a personality thing.  (Which, to the Twins defense, Worley seems like a punk.)

 

Yep. Every move up until the trade made sense. Worley was bad, he was demoted. Worley was awful, he was moved off the 40 man and cleared waivers.

 

But once that happened, why trade the guy? Keep him around and see if he rebounds. There was really no point in trading him, IMO... unless he was such a little prat that they feared he would become a clubhouse problem but that seems a bit far-fetched.


#21 Kwak

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 10:47 AM

OK.  So who of you want to see "the present" Worley in today's  rotation?  None?this thread reminds me of a sunfish I caught, but threw back in the lake.  Someone else caught him and ate him--and I'm OK with that.

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#22 Brandon

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 10:53 AM

 

I realize there was an oversupply of arms for the available innings at Rochester.  It baffled me then, and still does, that selling Worley for pennies would be the solution.

 

How would you have resolved it?


#23 Brandon

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 10:58 AM

Also Look at who is about to be in our rotation and tell me if you think Worely should be here or not.

 

Nolasco

Hughes

Gibson

May

Meyer

Pino

 

That's 6 solid starters and Berrios should be pretty close next year too.  Johnson and Darnell will be available so we will have lots of options up here.  Do we really need Worely.  I think Terry Ryan said they traded him to cut bait and give him an opportunity to start fresh somewhere else.  So I am guessing that means relationships and past results made it hard for him to be put in a spot to succeed here so why not trade him. 


#24 Hosken Bombo Disco

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 11:19 AM

 
Nolasco
Hughes
Gibson
May
Meyer
Pino
 
That's 6 solid starters


Sure, and how much better would they be under Pittsburgh's care :)

#25 Winston Smith

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 11:26 AM

Odd that after the last 3+ years and player after player going to other teams and at least being mediocre that people can still give the front office and coaching staff a  free pass.

 

How long do we have to watch bad baseball before there is some accountability?

May all our prospects be All Stars and the beer be free.


#26 mike wants wins

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 11:32 AM

Since you asked, I'd have cut Diamond (or Pino) right away, and kept Worley. I'd rather see him than Darnell or Johnson or Pino in the rotation today. I'd rather have a 25 year old with some MLB success in AAA, than a 30 year old that can't stick in AAA teams, for example. 

 

And, they didn't trade him. They got a couple of bucks for him. They cut him. After he cleared waivers, and could have kept him in AAA. He was young, and had upside. Thinking it was a good baseball decision (not about personalities or whatever, but baseball) seems odd to me.

Lighten up Francis....

#27 jharaldson

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 11:55 AM

Vance Worley, if he continues pitching with the peripherals he's currently sporting, will also collapse spectacularly. Nobody can sustain above average - or even average - performances with those peripherals.

 

I agree that he is pitching beyond what his peripheral stats would suggest but I disagre with the idea of a spectacular collapse.  He is currently sporitng a FIP of 3.52 and a xFIP of 3.77.  Both of those are in line with his good years in Philly.  Both of those are significantly better than his 2013 with the Twins.  Both of those suggest he isn't a top of the rotation guy like his 2.54 ERA suggests but both suggest to me that he can be a fine 3-4 starter when things correct.

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#28 SpiritofVodkaDave

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 03:22 PM

Worley is getting lucky. It happens to all pitchers, it just looks worse in this case because it happened to happen as soon as he joined the Pirates.

 

I did a quick glance at one of Blackburns seasons real quickly, heck, he had a 12 game stretch where he had a 2.20 ERA.

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#29 Badsmerf

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 06:04 PM

Worley is a bum. He is going to get pounded in no time. I don't care how well he does for 8 starts. There is no way this guy keeps it up. I really don't think its hard to defend the Twins about releasing a guy that blames a bad start on the wind. **** this guy. I can't wait until I can revive this thread after a 5+ ERA.
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