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#1 gunnarthor

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 08:44 AM

Souhan offers 4 ideas in todays column: 1) Cut Marquis and (essentially) let Hendriks, Swarzak, Duensing compete for rotation spots. 2) Trade span for starting pitching 3) Reassign Vavra and bring up Bruno as hitting coach. Also suggests adding new coaches to bench, naming Molitor and Gladden. 4) Fire Gardy. What do you think? I'm ok with cutting Marquis and letting Hendriks (or others) get more ML experience although I doubt it would improve the club much in the short run. I've been advocating trading Span for starting pitching for awhile and I think Ryan will eventually do that. I don't think Bruno or firing Vavra is going to make any difference but, at this point, I don't know if it'll do any harm, either. I do think the Twins need a Spanish speaking coach, it's ridiculous that we don't have one, and Bobby Cueller as been pretty good pitching coach in AAA. If you don't want to get rid of Anderson, make him the bullpen coach. I think Gardy is a net positive for the club and don't want him fired.

#2 Dilligaf69

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 08:51 AM

You have to part with Marquis and they need a new approach to hitting. Not sure if Molitor or Gladden want to be coaches...Did'nt the Twins offer Molitor the hitting coach posisition a few yrs back??? I could be wrong. With that said don't you think if he wanted it he would have it. Gardy is'nt the problem, nobody is winning with this rotation and No 3B and these injuries to key players. I think Span has to be traded but they need at least 1 promising starter.

#3 nokomismod

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 08:51 AM

Marquis? Might as well send him out there a few more times. He is kind of like Pavano and Blackburn right now. I'd love to see Gladden and Morris join the coaching staff. Those guys would add some fire.

#4 powrwrap

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 08:54 AM

[quote name='gunnarthor']Souhan offers 4 ideas in todays column:

1) Cut Marquis and (essentially) let Hendriks, Swarzak, Duensing compete for rotation spots.[/QUOTE]

Too early to cut Marquis. I'd give him two more starts. If he still stinks I'd go along with this.

[QUOTE] 2) Trade span for starting pitching[/QUOTE]

I'd agree with this if it brought an existing big league starter, but I don't think that's what Souhan suggested. Here's the relevant bit from the article:

The Twins need to make a reverse-Delmon trade. They traded Matt Garza for Delmon Young because they were so confident in their platoon of young arms. Now they're desperate for arms and have plenty of capable or promising outfielders in the organization.

Trade Span for a pitcher or two and call up Ben Revere to play center,

I presume Souhan means trade Span for a couple of starting pitching prospects, which I would disagree with if you implement strategy #1. I'd rather have the Twins trade Revere for a pitching prospect and trade Span for a current big league starter.


[QUOTE]3) Reassign Vavra and bring up Bruno as hitting coach. Also suggests adding new coaches to bench, naming Molitor and Gladden.[/QUOTE]

I can go along with reassigning Vavra and bringing up Bruno. Souhan's reasoning is that Bruno can relate to the younger players and has done a good job moving up the Twins' minor league system. Plus he brings former big-league hitting cred to the equation. But this idea that Molitor and Gladden are going to shake up the team is far-fetched IMO.

[QUOTE] 4) Fire Gardy.[/QUOTE]

Sure, and bring in....who? Gardy lacks the players with talent to win games. Supposing the guy they bring in doesn't like Bruno, Molly, and Gladden?

Edited by powrwrap, 16 May 2012 - 08:56 AM.

[FONT=comic sans ms][COLOR=#000000]"Baseball is like church. Many attend, few understand." [/COLOR][/FONT]

#5 Shane Wahl

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 09:02 AM

Molitor, Morris, and Gladden aren't going to add wins. This "fire" and "heart" stuff keeps rearing its unproven, ugly, irrational head. As far as coaches go, unless they go big and start with Ryan, I don't know about making other changes. Point is you can't just get rid of Vavra or Anderson. You have to start with Gardenhire. I am not sure if I would do that at the moment. Trade Revere, not Span. Pavano has got to have some injury to rest his shoulder. Call up DeVries to replace him. A Hendriks for Blackburn swap along similar lines a bit later. Maybe Bromberg for Marquis. Ending the year pitching Hendriks, Diamond, DeVries, Bromberg, and Blackburn/Walters is not a terrible idea. They could figure out 3/5 of the rotation for 2013 that way.

#6 Thrylos

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 09:06 AM

One of the few times I almost agree with Souhan. On the other hand, since the pitching has been more problematic than the hitting, how do you fire Vavra and let Andy stand? Yeah, Marquis needs another start or 2 and then I'd see if I can send him to Rochester before cut him...
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#7 gil4

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 09:13 AM

I'd love to see Gladden ... join the coaching staff.


Anything to get him out of the broadcast booth.

#8 nicksaviking

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 09:27 AM

Souhan offers 4 ideas in todays column:

3) Reassign Vavra and bring up Bruno as hitting coach. Also suggests adding new coaches to bench, naming Molitor and Gladden.


Why does it have to be one or the other? Why can't the Twins have Vavra and Bruno as hitting coaches? This team has way too many young players for one hitting or pitching coach to work with everyday. I'm not trying to defend him, but there is no way Vavra can give an hour of one-on-one time each day with every hitter who is struggling with his swing.

#9 mikeee

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 09:31 AM

Maybe they can pick up Mickey Hatcher for a hitting coach. The angels just fired him.

#10 kirbyelway

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 09:33 AM

I think people need to face the fact that there is just not a lot of talent on this team.

#11 gunnarthor

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 09:35 AM

Why does it have to be one or the other? Why can't the Twins have Vavra and Bruno as hitting coaches? This team has way too many young players for one hitting or pitching coach to work with everyday. I'm not trying to defend him, but there is no way Vavra can give an hour of one-on-one time each day with every hitter who is struggling with his swing.


Honestly, that's a great point. I have no idea why we couldn't have 2 hitting coaches - although maybe the Pohlads balk at paying an extra coaches salary.

#12 Oldgoat_MN

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 10:12 AM

Look at ex-Twins players who have gone on to hit better on their new teams. Vavra has to go. Anderson, too.

There just comes a time when you have to go to these guys, thank them for their service, and point out that something has to change. They certainly know that something has to change.

These things impact players all the time. Look what a difference having Showalter show up one day as the manager has made to the Orioles. Sometimes it just requires that you do something.

#13 stringer bell

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 10:14 AM

The main problem with this club is lack of talent. Secondarily, the pieces don't fit together real well. For example, the mix of lefties and righties isn't ideal, they have to many pitch-to-contact starters with similar arsenals, and they remain too dependent on two former MVPs who have to prove they can perform for a whole season. While I don't blame Gardenhire for much of the mess, it may be time to go another direction. The club needs to invest in power arms and power hitters and also needs to get away from guys with major limitations, most notably zero power.

#14 ashburyjohn

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 10:30 AM

Bruno is nine months younger than Vavra so I'm not sure why he'd be better able to relate to younger players; and his resume may be fine as he has moved up the Twins organization but his results so far in 2012 at AAA lack any really signature accomplishments. Mastroianni might be the only hitter he can point to, while Benson regressed, Revere has a nearly empty .300 BA, Towles isn't hitting like he has previously at AAA, etc. Like a pitcher who does well in the lower minors and then has a 5.00 ERA at AAA after his first few starts, Brunansky still needs to prove something before you move him further up. He seems to be a fun guy to be around and that could account for some of the buzz surrounding him.

#15 peterb18

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 10:34 AM

All of the above suggestions are good, etc. But, the main problem is with ownership decimating the core of the team in the last few years. Either through not signing your free agents(Kubel, Cuddyer, Nathan), losing clubhouse leadership(Cuddyer, Nathan), bad trades-Hardy, Ramos,etc. Unless management, or ownership changes nothing will happen for many years. This team could have remained competitive for the next few years until the young players arrive on the scene if ownership wanted it bad enough. When you choose to cut payroll when you have a new stadium built for you, then we all know what happens--a bad team. Not only bad, but the worst in the majors!

#16 whydidnt

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 10:39 AM

I think Souhan is right on most points for once. I'd love for someone that thinks coaches and managers don't matter to explain to me why every franchise in the league spends millions of dollars a year on coaches and managers. It absolutely matters, certainly not as much as talent, but if it didn't matter, teams would just throw the last retired player out there for the league minimum and go about their business. The bottom line is that the Twins are the worst team in baseball, if not for Houston completely blowing up their team last year, this would be the 2nd year in a row we could claim this honor. It's time to think about replacing the coaches. It can't get any worse. It's a no risk proposition, what could happen, you lose 120 instead of 110? Perhaps a new approach will help some of these guys. Marquis was a waste of 3 million when he signed and he still is. It's the same sort of crap we saw with guys like Martinez an Hernandez, bring a guy in that's lousy, lie about his strengths, like throwing strikes etc, and then act surprised when he stinks, all the while flushing millions down the toilet. It's like my Mom always told me, if you're going to do something, do it right, or don't bother. I wasted $30 to sit and watch the Twins stumble around on the field yesterday. If it hadn't been such a nice day, I'd have been really mad at myself. It appeared none of the hitters had any clue what they were going to do when they faced Lowe. Whatever approach we are using from a coaching standpoint, it needs to be something other than look at the first pitch and then pound the ball into the ground when you have 2 strikes on you. Bottom line is that yes the Twins don't have a lot talent, but where do you draw the line between not having talent, and the coaches not properly getting the most talent out of the players they have? I realize we aren't playing for wins this year, which is why it's even more crucial to fix the coaching issues now. They need to start a new approach while these guys are young and learning on the job rather than at the end of the year. Why waste the next 3 months if change is inevitable anyway?

#17 Thrylos

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 10:41 AM

All of the above suggestions are good, etc. But, the main problem is with ownership decimating the core of the team in the last few years. Either through not signing your free agents(Kubel, Cuddyer, Nathan), losing clubhouse leadership(Cuddyer, Nathan), bad trades-Hardy, Ramos,etc. Unless management, or ownership changes nothing will happen for many years. This team could have remained competitive for the next few years until the young players arrive on the scene if ownership wanted it bad enough. When you choose to cut payroll when you have a new stadium built for you, then we all know what happens--a bad team. Not only bad, but the worst in the majors!


I think that you are confusing Front Office baseball operations with "Ownership". Unlike owners like Steinbrenner, the Pohlads are letting the Front Office run things. And I agree, the Front Office is to blame for a lot of what is happening here...
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#18 Seth Stohs

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 10:52 AM

Look at ex-Twins players who have gone on to hit better on their new teams. Vavra has to go. Anderson, too.


Besides David Ortiz (who was gone before Vavra)... I'd like to see that list?

#19 StormJH1

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 10:53 AM

Just read the article...even used one of my precious 15 "views" on it. Oooooh! I don't understand Souhan's point. He says "this can't go on", and we need to "stop the bleeding". But what is the ultimate goal? To be better THIS year? Or to improve the outlook of the organization in years to come? Make sure you're sitting down as I say this...but I...don't think we're going to the playoffs this year. Trade Span for pitching? Sure. You can try it. But let's be real, the MLB return for Span would be less like Gio Gonzalez and more like a Jason Marquis (who, incidentally, was a Nationals pitcher last season). The Nationals are 22-14 and have a very promising future. Their rotation has been amazing this year. Forget Strasburg and Zimmerman, I'm not even sure they would move Ross Detweiler or Edwin Jackson right now, and they just acquired Gio Gonzalez. That's a pretty formidable 5-man staff, all of which are 28 or under. Also, keep in mind that Span is only 30-odd games into a season we weren't even sure he was ready for, and the concussion issue hasn't just "gone away" for other teams. I like the "reverse Garza" analogy, except that whether you like to hear it or not, a 28-year-old, oft-injured Denard Span is nowhere near as valuable as 22-year-old Delmon Young was (character concerns notwithstanding). Finally, if Souhan's goal is to avoid 100 losses THIS season, then I don't understand how dumping Marquis for nothing and using Hendriks, Swarzak, and Duensing in that place accomplishes that goal. Odds are that two of those guys, if not all three, are going to be getting a significant number of starts ANYWAY this year. Baker's hurt, Liriano's in mop-up work, and Pavano may be hurt worse than he thinks. Somebody has to start for this team, and we're running out of bodies.

#20 gunnarthor

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 10:53 AM

I think that you are confusing Front Office baseball operations with "Ownership". Unlike owners like Steinbrenner, the Pohlads are letting the Front Office run things. And I agree, the Front Office is to blame for a lot of what is happening here...


That's not completely fair. Ownership has, esp in the past, put spending limits on the draft that should be taken into account. We've also cut payroll several times when circumstances dictated it but really only had one year where they stretched payroll.

I'm really curious how much of a draft budget the Twins have this year.

#21 StormJH1

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 11:00 AM

Besides David Ortiz (who was gone before Vavra)... I'd like to see that list?

You could make a list. I'm not saying it wouldn't be totally anecdotal, but there are examples. J.J. Hardy is the most recent one. Delmon looked that way for a few months, but now he's just Delmon again. Garrett Jones has huge holes in his swing, but if the Twins thought he was even a 20 HR hitter with frequent K's, they'd probably have kept him. And Bartlett had a breakout season after leaving, but that appears to be an anomaly. So, you're right that there isn't a ton of evidence to back up that assumption.

That being said, keep two things in mind:
(1) Players at the major league level have already developed into much of what they're going to be - in other words, there may have been guys that could have emerged as power prospects in other organizations that were simply mishandled by the Twins. (And therefore, we'll never know)
(2) The Twins, as an organization, largely avoided drafting or acquiring the types of high risk/high reward hitters we're talking about, so that suppresses the number of guys who would play for us and then move on to hit somewhere else.

#22 mike wants wins

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 11:00 AM

gunnarthor, you don't feel the FO is to blame much? I think we'll disagree on that one.

What I just typed is probably an opinion, not a fact. I mean, I'm usually right, so you should maybe assume it is or will be a fact soon, but that's up to you. :)


#23 Thrylos

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 11:43 AM

That's not completely fair. Ownership has, esp in the past, put spending limits on the draft that should be taken into account. We've also cut payroll several times when circumstances dictated it but really only had one year where they stretched payroll.

I'm really curious how much of a draft budget the Twins have this year.


The payroll is a dead horse. If Ryan is spending $3M on Marquis, $5M + a draft pick on Capps, is the ownership to blame? The Twins have $105 M payroll. They just don't spend them in a smart way. Look at the payrolls of the teams that made last post-season. The Twins payroll this season is higher than a bunch of them. It is not how much; it is what. And as far as the draft budget goes, after the new CBA, it is fairly standard with the hard slots and penalties.
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#24 roger

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 11:48 AM

That's not completely fair. Ownership has, esp in the past, put spending limits on the draft that should be taken into account. We've also cut payroll several times when circumstances dictated it but really only had one year where they stretched payroll.

I'm really curious how much of a draft budget the Twins have this year.


They better have $12,368,200 to spend for the first ten rounds. A good gauge on their plan will be when we see how many of the players from rounds 11-40 they sign. Normally, they would sign 15 or so. Considering the state of the organization, I would hope it would be more this year. If they cut the number they sign and don't spend the allotted dollars, everyone should be upset. If they sign 25-30 players and spend the budget, they are doing everything they can.

#25 Boom Boom

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 12:07 PM

The Twins absolutely should trade Span for pitching prospects. There are no established starters that will turn this team around quickly. The Twins need pitchers that will be around for a while, not one that will be here for a couple years and then be gone. They're just not that close to competing.

#26 gunnarthor

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 12:54 PM

gunnarthor, you don't feel the FO is to blame much?


Not too much, no FO is perfect but generally, Terry Ryan's been pretty good. Bill Smith was fired, Ryan's been on the job for six months. They added Wayne Krivski (sp) to the FO. Give them time. The Twins had a long successful run but it was due to end. Injuries obviously escalated it but I don't think there's anything wrong with, in general, the way the Twins have created their teams over the last decade.

I've seen your complaints before and I don't think they are all that valid or fair but we've gone over that several times already.

#27 gunnarthor

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 12:55 PM

They better have $12,368,200 to spend for the first ten rounds. ... If they cut the number they sign and don't spend the allotted dollars, everyone should be upset. If they sign 25-30 players and spend the budget, they are doing everything they can.


Yeah, that was what I was getting at.

#28 snepp

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 01:07 PM

Bill Smith was fired, They added Wayne Krivski (sp) to the FO.


Smith was reassigned, Krivski was re-added.

Pouring stagnant water into an already stagnant pool.

#29 JB_Iowa

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 01:42 PM

Pouring stagnant water into an already stagnant pool.


And the stench just gets worse and worse.

#30 peterb18

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 02:39 PM

I think that you are confusing Front Office baseball operations with "Ownership". Unlike owners like Steinbrenner, the Pohlads are letting the Front Office run things. And I agree, the Front Office is to blame for a lot of what is happening here...


Thrylos, no I'm not confusing Ownership with the Front Office--In the Twin system it is like one big happy family. No major decision is made without running it through ownership. How many times have you heard Terry, or Bill Smith say, " I will have to run this through ownership"? I have heard that often over the years. This team is where they are because the Pohalds have decided to cut payroll and start over---This team does not have direction from the top. It is like a major corporation without a board of directors--for guidance. Everything from the coaches to the players and the farm system is in need of "big" improvement. Actually, this problem is much bigger than Gardy, and the coaches now! I would like the Pohlads to sell, but that will never happen.