Jump to content

Providing independent coverage of the Minnesota Twins.
Subscribe to Twins Daily Email
Photo

Do you still view Dozier as "untouchable" ?

  • Please log in to reply
77 replies to this topic

#21 RonCoomer

RonCoomer

    Junior Member

  • Members
  • 4 posts

Posted 20 July 2014 - 10:01 AM

This current group of, Dozier, Plouffe, Arcia, Hicks, Gibson et all has done nothing but lose since they have come up to the big leagues.


It's been pointed out before, but Arcia just turned 23 in May and only has 550 or so MLB plate appearances. Let's give him some actual time to develop. If by the time he's 26 and still hasn't come around, then I think it would be more fair to heap blame on him. The same can be said for Hicks.

Also, I disagree that the way to put together a winning team is to dispense of young, high-upside talent under team control for several seasons by hitting reset and acquiring different prospects. Prospects don't win major league baseball games--major leaguers do. Let's see what we've got before abandoning ship.

#22 diehardtwinsfan

diehardtwinsfan

    Twins Moderator

  • Twins Mods
  • 10,923 posts
  • LocationThe charred ruins of BYTO

Posted 20 July 2014 - 10:48 AM

It's been pointed out before, but Arcia just turned 23 in May and only has 550 or so MLB plate appearances. Let's give him some actual time to develop. If by the time he's 26 and still hasn't come around, then I think it would be more fair to heap blame on him. The same can be said for Hicks.

Also, I disagree that the way to put together a winning team is to dispense of young, high-upside talent under team control for several seasons by hitting reset and acquiring different prospects. Prospects don't win major league baseball games--major leaguers do. Let's see what we've got before abandoning ship.


Agreed, something needs to be said for patience. Most prospects struggle a bit at the ML level before they figure things out... Look at Dozier. It took him a little over a year for things to click. Arcia, Hicks, and Gibson are all in the same boat. It takes time, and a rebuilding team is going to have to get it to them. Meyer and May will come up soon, and they will probably struggle too. It's rare for a guy to come up and just flat out dominate. If those are the expectations people want, the Twins will end up like KC of the last decade.

#23 Mr. Brooks

Mr. Brooks

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 4,005 posts

Posted 20 July 2014 - 10:59 AM

Agreed, something needs to be said for patience. Most prospects struggle a bit at the ML level before they figure things out... Look at Dozier. It took him a little over a year for things to click. Arcia, Hicks, and Gibson are all in the same boat. It takes time, and a rebuilding team is going to have to get it to them. Meyer and May will come up soon, and they will probably struggle too. It's rare for a guy to come up and just flat out dominate. If those are the expectations people want, the Twins will end up like KC of the last decade.



And this is why the Twins need to get guys like May and Meyer up here ASAP. They are not going to be all stars the moment they step on the field, so the longer we keep them down, the longer we are pushing back our next contending season.

At this point, 2015 is out of the question. And if some of these guys don't start getting tastes soon (Buxton and Sano injuries hurt), 2016 will soon be out of the question as well.

#24 drjim

drjim

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 7,790 posts
  • LocationSt. Paul

Posted 20 July 2014 - 01:10 PM

And this is why the Twins need to get guys like May and Meyer up here ASAP. They are not going to be all stars the moment they step on the field, so the longer we keep them down, the longer we are pushing back our next contending season.

At this point, 2015 is out of the question. And if some of these guys don't start getting tastes soon (Buxton and Sano injuries hurt), 2016 will soon be out of the question as well.


I don't necessarily agree with this premise. Meyer and May should be up as soon as they are ready - unless that is what you mean by ASAP.

As a counter, do you really think Gibson would be even slightly better this year if had another month of mlb starts last year? I don't think it would make any difference.
Papers...business papers.

#25 Oxtung

Oxtung

    If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence of tryin

  • Members
  • 1,820 posts

Posted 20 July 2014 - 01:56 PM

I don't necessarily agree with this premise. Meyer and May should be up as soon as they are ready - unless that is what you mean by ASAP.

As a counter, do you really think Gibson would be even slightly better this year if had another month of mlb starts last year? I don't think it would make any difference.


I think another 10 or so starts for Gibson would have been significant. If they had called him up after April, gaining the extra year of service time, he could have returned to the minors after struggling in the majors and worked on his stuff for 5 or 6 starts at AAA. Then come back up to the majors for another 5 or 6 starts to end his season. He would have had the opportunity to fail then try and adapt, thus giving him immediate feedback on if his changes were successful and for him to work over the offseason what his next steps were to improve his game.

You could argue that wasn't realistic with Gibson given his arm troubles in 2012 and I won't disagree, I'm just trying to point out how a few extra games could have been useful for a pitcher.

#26 Mr. Brooks

Mr. Brooks

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 4,005 posts

Posted 20 July 2014 - 04:38 PM

I don't necessarily agree with this premise. Meyer and May should be up as soon as they are ready - unless that is what you mean by ASAP.

As a counter, do you really think Gibson would be even slightly better this year if had another month of mlb starts last year? I don't think it would make any difference.


I disagree that May and Meyer are not ready right now.

Meyer is dominating AAA right now. He leads the league in K/9 and K%, he can't be hit (.220 BA against), and has a low HR rate and high GB rate.

I know the counter is his walks and "consistency", but if that is what we are waiting for, then it was a waste to even trade for him. A guy 6'9" is going to issue walks, and is going to have bad games due to losing his mechanics. That is the bad that you take with the good when you have a pitcher that big.

He's as good as he's ever going to get at AAA.

Trevor May HAS been incredibly consistent, at this point I'm left wondering what the argument even is for keeping him down. People keep saying he would be up if not for the injury, but he was pitching consistently before the injury, and still wasn't up, so I'm not buying that.

Yes, I do think that getting these guys feet wet this year would help with next year. In fact to me that seems like almost a guarantee. You can't teach or buy experience. It can only be gained one way, and that is not in AAA.

#27 drjim

drjim

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 7,790 posts
  • LocationSt. Paul

Posted 20 July 2014 - 08:15 PM

I disagree that May and Meyer are not ready right now.

Meyer is dominating AAA right now. He leads the league in K/9 and K%, he can't be hit (.220 BA against), and has a low HR rate and high GB rate.

I know the counter is his walks and "consistency", but if that is what we are waiting for, then it was a waste to even trade for him. A guy 6'9" is going to issue walks, and is going to have bad games due to losing his mechanics. That is the bad that you take with the good when you have a pitcher that big.

He's as good as he's ever going to get at AAA.

Trevor May HAS been incredibly consistent, at this point I'm left wondering what the argument even is for keeping him down. People keep saying he would be up if not for the injury, but he was pitching consistently before the injury, and still wasn't up, so I'm not buying that.

Yes, I do think that getting these guys feet wet this year would help with next year. In fact to me that seems like almost a guarantee. You can't teach or buy experience. It can only be gained one way, and that is not in AAA.


Fair enough, I can read stats too.

You answered my May response, I also believe he would be up if he hadn't gotten hurt.

Meyer is more complicated in my mind. He could come up and be successful, but there are concerns about his third pitch and his fastball command. This season isn't going anywhere, I think it makes sense to develop these two things in a lower stress environment. If he can improve these two things he is an ace.

The key is preference if you want to development them in AAA or at the majors. I disagree the majors is better because he would get exposed, fall back more his two plus pitches, and not develop as well as he should. I assume you would disagree.

I think he would have some success right now in the majors, and also some setbacks. I also think if the Twins were contenders he would be up in the bullpen right now. But they aren't so they have the luxury of patience.
Papers...business papers.

#28 Sconnie

Sconnie

    From the "right" side of the St Croix

  • Members
  • 2,989 posts
  • LocationNW Wisconsin

Posted 20 July 2014 - 08:31 PM

Nobody should be untouchable, but you don't dig out of this hole by trading the best young, cheap, established players you have. If someone wants to offer something foolish, sure. Otherwise, you keep him.

this team lost 96 games with Dozier as the primary 2b. As good as he is, if you can improve to a greater extent in the future by trading him or another player, do it. Can you get significantly worse?

#29 beckmt

beckmt

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 1,734 posts

Posted 20 July 2014 - 08:56 PM

I think the Twins should listen on Dozier. If offer is good enough pull the trigger. Another tread showed the bust potential of any player to be about 80%. If you have 30 reasonably good prospect 6 will be very good and some of the rest will be useful.

#30 Monkeypaws

Monkeypaws

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 1,698 posts

Posted 20 July 2014 - 10:59 PM

The way to go is to sell sell sell, and bring up the kids en masse.

Tweeners like Dozier are the hardest to call - the guy is just barely out of his prospect costume.

His D and power alone, coupled with his age and contract status, to me spells keeper.

You need to build around something, and him, Hughes, Perkins, ore a start.

#31 Willihammer

Willihammer

    Nostrombolimus

  • Members
  • 7,252 posts
  • LocationSaint Paul

Posted 20 July 2014 - 11:28 PM

I think the Twins should listen on Dozier. If offer is good enough pull the trigger. Another tread showed the bust potential of any player to be about 80%. If you have 30 reasonably good prospect 6 will be very good and some of the rest will be useful.


I don't think the odds are that good

#32 Scheherezade

Scheherezade

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 115 posts

Posted 21 July 2014 - 01:30 AM

If the Angels want to give us Mike Trout straight up for Dozier, I'd take that deal.

#33 beckmt

beckmt

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 1,734 posts

Posted 21 July 2014 - 05:01 AM

I don't think the odds are that good

This is with the 2nd or 3rd best farm system in the majors and 5 prospects in the top 50 of some lists. Twins best chance is to get most of these 5 and some of the rest up here to start 2016, you don't want to start losing key pieces just when you are ready to compete. Money for Free Agents can be spent at this time to fill the holes that don't work out.

#34 drjim

drjim

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 7,790 posts
  • LocationSt. Paul

Posted 21 July 2014 - 06:54 AM

I think that the odds of trading Dozier are near 0%, but one possible trade that jumped out to me after thinking about it was the Cardinals.

They could offer Taveras and Wong, Twins would have to add something else, perhaps Suzuki?

The only way Dozier gets moved is if a 2b comes back - and the Twins previously drafted Wong.
Papers...business papers.

#35 tobi0040

tobi0040

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 5,683 posts

Posted 21 July 2014 - 07:00 AM

Fair enough, I can read stats too.

You answered my May response, I also believe he would be up if he hadn't gotten hurt.

Meyer is more complicated in my mind. He could come up and be successful, but there are concerns about his third pitch and his fastball command. This season isn't going anywhere, I think it makes sense to develop these two things in a lower stress environment. If he can improve these two things he is an ace.

The key is preference if you want to development them in AAA or at the majors. I disagree the majors is better because he would get exposed, fall back more his two plus pitches, and not develop as well as he should. I assume you would disagree.

I think he would have some success right now in the majors, and also some setbacks. I also think if the Twins were contenders he would be up in the bullpen right now. But they aren't so they have the luxury of patience.


I side with Mr. Brooks. He is dominating AAA now and the Twins are going to move him up this year at some point. Between now and then, he will not have learned anything further at AAA. So for my money, let's get some experience up here and see how his stuff fares with the big club. Then you can work on and think about adjustments all off-season. The longer we wait, the more of the adjustment period will get pushed to next year.

#36 bronald3030

bronald3030

    Junior Member

  • Members
  • 8 posts

Posted 21 July 2014 - 07:27 AM

Dozier fields well, but an average less than .240 does not make you untouchable. If someone offers a building block for the future trade him.

#37 nicksaviking

nicksaviking

    Billy G.O.A.T

  • Twins Mods
  • 10,545 posts

Posted 21 July 2014 - 07:53 AM

I side with Mr. Brooks. He is dominating AAA now and the Twins are going to move him up this year at some point. Between now and then, he will not have learned anything further at AAA. So for my money, let's get some experience up here and see how his stuff fares with the big club. Then you can work on and think about adjustments all off-season. The longer we wait, the more of the adjustment period will get pushed to next year.


I'm with Drjim in the fact that we have no idea if these guys are "ready."

That being said, I don't believe they need to be completely "ready" to be called up. It seems that the Twins require their pitchers to have a lot more polish prior to their call up than they do the batters. Unless the players are mentally fragile, or the sunshine and rainbows atmosphere in Target Field is conducive to stunted development at the first sign of adversity, I don't know what the hesitation is to let a pitcher take his lumps at the MLB level. It would seem to be a pretty good learning experience unless the pitcher happens to be the kind of guy to cry in the corner of the shower and ask for his mommy after getting rocked.

#38 Beezer07

Beezer07

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 637 posts

Posted 21 July 2014 - 07:59 AM

Dozier fields well, but an average less than .240 does not make you untouchable. If someone offers a building block for the future trade him.


Isn't Dozier a building block for the future?

#39 diehardtwinsfan

diehardtwinsfan

    Twins Moderator

  • Twins Mods
  • 10,923 posts
  • LocationThe charred ruins of BYTO

Posted 21 July 2014 - 08:03 AM

This is with the 2nd or 3rd best farm system in the majors and 5 prospects in the top 50 of some lists. Twins best chance is to get most of these 5 and some of the rest up here to start 2016, you don't want to start losing key pieces just when you are ready to compete. Money for Free Agents can be spent at this time to fill the holes that don't work out.

Most of the top 5 should be up by then baring injury. Stewart would be the only exception to that rule, but in principle, I'd have to disagree. I don't think you want them taking up roster spots while they struggle because they were promoted too rapidly.

#40 diehardtwinsfan

diehardtwinsfan

    Twins Moderator

  • Twins Mods
  • 10,923 posts
  • LocationThe charred ruins of BYTO

Posted 21 July 2014 - 08:04 AM

Isn't Dozier a building block for the future?


I'd argue that he is.