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Do you still view Dozier as "untouchable" ?

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#1 Trevor0333

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 06:29 PM

Don't get me wrong, I love Dozier & he's proven his success is no fluke. However, if you can get a young front line starter, do you do it & finish the year with a Santana/Escobar middle infield? Even though Rosario has been up & down a bit since his return I still view him as a very good hitting 2B. Polanco isn't exactly 5 years away either.

The Braves are 1 game behind the Nationals & finally just released Uggla. They have no clear 2nd base options. They have an abundance of near ready pitching prospects. Including one former prospect who has been very good in Alex Wood.

How reasonable would it be to call up the Braves FO & see if they were interested in a Dozier & Corriea swap for Alex Wood. Wood would slot in beautifully behind Hughes & Gibson giving a different look while adding a quality lefty to the rotation.

Hughes/Wood/Gibson/Meyer/May let's play!

#2 Beezer07

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 07:01 PM

I'm not sure you trade a pretty good 2B (offensively and defensively) for a SP, especially a prospect/recent prospect.

#3 Twins Twerp

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 07:14 PM

Don't get me wrong, I love Dozier & he's proven his success is no fluke. However, if you can get a young front line starter, do you do it & finish the year with a Santana/Escobar middle infield? Even though Rosario has been up & down a bit since his return I still view him as a very good hitting 2B. Polanco isn't exactly 5 years away either.

The Braves are 1 game behind the Nationals & finally just released Uggla. They have no clear 2nd base options. They have an abundance of near ready pitching prospects. Including one former prospect who has been very good in Alex Wood.

How reasonable would it be to call up the Braves FO & see if they were interested in a Dozier & Corriea swap for Alex Wood. Wood would slot in beautifully behind Hughes & Gibson giving a different look while adding a quality lefty to the rotation.

Hughes/Wood/Gibson/Meyer/May let's play!

Throw in Duensing, Max Kepler, and (insert other irrelevant low minors reliever) and this deal is done #sarcasm #hypotheticaltrade #donottradeguysinprimewhoareprestillprearbitration #overevaluatingourprospects

#4 Thrylos

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 07:20 PM

I think that the Twins should not have any untouchables in this team, including Dozier (and Perkins).
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#5 Beezer07

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 07:34 PM

For the record, though, nobody on a team should ever be untouchable. Sure, a team might have to give you the moon for a guy to get him, but you should never say "under no circumstances."

#6 howeda7

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 08:28 PM

Nobody should be untouchable, but you don't dig out of this hole by trading the best young, cheap, established players you have. If someone wants to offer something foolish, sure. Otherwise, you keep him.

#7 drjim

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 08:52 PM

Nobody should be untouchable, but you don't dig out of this hole by trading the best young, cheap, established players you have. If someone wants to offer something foolish, sure. Otherwise, you keep him.


This.
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#8 gunnarthor

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 09:00 PM

Atlanta actually is using a pretty solid prospect now - La Stella. The Nats and Orioles could use a second baseman. If the Twin were able to pry Gioltio or Bundy back, I'd be ok with moving Dozier but not for a potential #3 pitcher.

#9 kab21

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 10:21 PM

I would certainly move him for a pitcher like Alex Wood. He shouldn't be viewed as untouchable but this team should not be in a hurry to move him because of Rosario or Polanco.

The Braves have a pretty obvious 2Bman as gunnarthor mentions. That 2Bman is like this year's version of Dozier but with a better MiLB resume. He has a cumulative .322/.408/.474/.882 line from the minors.

#10 jaimedude2

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 11:51 PM

Atlanta actually is using a pretty solid prospect now - La Stella. The Nats and Orioles could use a second baseman. If the Twin were able to pry Gioltio or Bundy back, I'd be ok with moving Dozier but not for a potential #3 pitcher.


This current group of, Dozier, Plouffe, Arcia, Hicks, Gibson et all has done nothing but lose since they have come up to the big leagues. I'm ready to blow this thing up and start over with all of the young prospects and take the lumps including booting the manager. Gardenhire has overstayed his welcome by a half season already. This generation of players does not relate to this manager or his coaching staff (excluding a new guy like Molitor)
Perkins is like having a luxury Mazarati or Ferrari in the garage that never get's used. When your team is in few positions to win ninth inning games do you really need a luxury car as a closer? I like Perkins but fear this team is never going to be in a position to best utilize his talents and become even close to a contender in the next 2-3 years. This team is not close to being a 500 ball club yet, let alone a playoff team.

I know people have said guys like Dozier and Perkins are UN-tradeable but when there some of your only assets that are worth anything to get something desirable back then you should listen. I would do Dozier to the Orioles for Bundy and or Dozier to the Nationals for Giaolito in a heart beat. Chances are neither of those teams would give up that much for Dozier. As good as Dozier might seem his average is low and he plays on a bad team so that taints the goods. You have to pick a direction and go one way or the other. Just sticking with this group or plugging this roster with fading veterans is not working. They need to move the likes of Willingham, Morales and Fuld down the road as soon as possible. As good as Suzuki has been he is on a one year deal and probably want's more money than he would be worth to the Twins, and he is as peak performance standards on a bad baseball team. It is time to trade Suzuki too. To me a Palanco or Rosario can provide what Dozier does right now in the long run anyways. This version of the Twins is like the last three going no where fast and will finish exactly where it has the last three years in last place in the central division.

Edited by jaimedude2, 18 July 2014 - 11:57 PM.


#11 stringer bell

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 08:12 AM

Is Giancarlo Stanton "tainted" because he plays for the Marlins? My goodness, the Twins could have had ultimate winners Jeter and Rivera in place of Dozier and Perkins and it wouldn't make them a winning team. Good players are good players. Two Twins who would look much better on a winning team IMHO are Dozier and Joe Mauer, because of their more than one-dimensional games. Batting average is such a misleading statistic, especially when BB% can vary so much. Brian Dozier had a good case to be an All-Star despite his .242 average. JJ Hardy had much less of a case despite a .284 BA (.313 OBP).

#12 Jim H

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 09:13 AM

Nobody should be untouchable, but you don't dig out of this hole by trading the best young, cheap, established players you have. If someone wants to offer something foolish, sure. Otherwise, you keep him.


I think this right. There could be a point when trading Dozier makes sense. When Rosario or Polanco get close enough to the majors and show enough to make a solid replacement for Dozier. Dozier may not get much/any better than he is now but barring injury, he is not likely to get worse. Whatever trade value he has, will be there in a year or two, if the Twins want to go in that direction.

When you are rebuilding with young players, it takes a bit of time for all of them to figure things out and finish development. At some point the Arcias and Santanas have to be in the majors working things out. It is clearly better to have a solid team(like the Twins of the mid 2000's) and only have to filter in a young player or twp every year. The Twins aren't there yet, and aren't likely to try to shortcut the process through free agency or trades. At least not massively so. Perhaps we will see selected free agents and a few, mostly minor trades.

I am hopeful that the pitching will be good enough over the next few years, so that we don't have to watch a trainwreck while the young, hopefully premium talent position players figure things out at the major league level. It is possible to be borderline contenders while the young talent grows into what we all hope and project they can be.

#13 jorgenswest

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 09:27 AM

The a Twins should always listen. As long as they don't sign Dozier to a long term contract and he plays well, he will retain his value in the trade market.

Perkins trade value dropped with his new contract through age 34. The Padres received a nice return for Street who is a year younger with a shorter commitment. Perkins was in a similar spot last year.

#14 Sconnie

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 09:52 AM

The a Twins should always listen. As long as they don't sign Dozier to a long term contract and he plays well, he will retain his value in the trade market.

Perkins trade value dropped with his new contract through age 34. The Padres received a nice return for Street who is a year younger with a shorter commitment. Perkins was in a similar spot last year.

That was the point for Perkins in the deal. He wanted to stay, he wanted security, he couldn't get no trade clause, but got something almost as good.

#15 jorgenswest

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 10:10 AM

That was the point for Perkins in the deal. He wanted to stay, he wanted security, he couldn't get no trade clause, but got something almost as good.


I agree. No point in bringing him up in trade discussion. The Twins closed the door on a Street like return with the extension.

I hope they don't extend Dozier.

#16 Danchat

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 11:04 AM

I only think about dealing Dozier if the offer we get is really good. Other than that, he's going to be a key contributor for the next few years at 2B and should be kept there.

#17 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 11:28 AM

This version of the Twins is like the last three going no where fast and will finish exactly where it has the last three years in last place in the central division.


The Twins were fourth in the division last season.

#18 Kwak

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 11:54 AM

No, Dozier is not untouchable. But, a trade of him requires 4-5 "good prospects", not one.
Part of the "attendance problem" is who are these guys? Show producers charge top dollars for stars (and get it), but the Twins don't have these "stars". All the Twins have is Joe Mauer (who sad to say, doesn't shine as bright as before) and 24 "who he?" and why should I pay to watch these guys? Dozier is as close as the Twins have to put on the marquee. Before you mention anybody in the MiLs, re-read Pohlad's quote about minor leaguers in the thread devoted to Pohlad. The fans need connections to the team before they spend their cash. Hopelessly losing seasons using unknowns, hugely reduces the gate receipts. If that problem isn't solved soon, we will be reading about how the payroll is constrained by low revenues (again).

#19 TKGuy

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 01:53 PM

Unless somebody gives you a Herschel Walker type bonanza, you keep him. He is young enough to be part of the next contending team.
Then, we will use our prospects to acquire more talent

#20 diehardtwinsfan

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 01:55 PM

Nobody should be untouchable, but you don't dig out of this hole by trading the best young, cheap, established players you have. If someone wants to offer something foolish, sure. Otherwise, you keep him.


This. I don't see the Braves selling what I'd want to make it worth while. We don't have an heir apparent to Dozier either, and that is also a problem.

#21 RonCoomer

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 10:01 AM

This current group of, Dozier, Plouffe, Arcia, Hicks, Gibson et all has done nothing but lose since they have come up to the big leagues.


It's been pointed out before, but Arcia just turned 23 in May and only has 550 or so MLB plate appearances. Let's give him some actual time to develop. If by the time he's 26 and still hasn't come around, then I think it would be more fair to heap blame on him. The same can be said for Hicks.

Also, I disagree that the way to put together a winning team is to dispense of young, high-upside talent under team control for several seasons by hitting reset and acquiring different prospects. Prospects don't win major league baseball games--major leaguers do. Let's see what we've got before abandoning ship.

#22 diehardtwinsfan

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 10:48 AM

It's been pointed out before, but Arcia just turned 23 in May and only has 550 or so MLB plate appearances. Let's give him some actual time to develop. If by the time he's 26 and still hasn't come around, then I think it would be more fair to heap blame on him. The same can be said for Hicks.

Also, I disagree that the way to put together a winning team is to dispense of young, high-upside talent under team control for several seasons by hitting reset and acquiring different prospects. Prospects don't win major league baseball games--major leaguers do. Let's see what we've got before abandoning ship.


Agreed, something needs to be said for patience. Most prospects struggle a bit at the ML level before they figure things out... Look at Dozier. It took him a little over a year for things to click. Arcia, Hicks, and Gibson are all in the same boat. It takes time, and a rebuilding team is going to have to get it to them. Meyer and May will come up soon, and they will probably struggle too. It's rare for a guy to come up and just flat out dominate. If those are the expectations people want, the Twins will end up like KC of the last decade.

#23 Mr. Brooks

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 10:59 AM

Agreed, something needs to be said for patience. Most prospects struggle a bit at the ML level before they figure things out... Look at Dozier. It took him a little over a year for things to click. Arcia, Hicks, and Gibson are all in the same boat. It takes time, and a rebuilding team is going to have to get it to them. Meyer and May will come up soon, and they will probably struggle too. It's rare for a guy to come up and just flat out dominate. If those are the expectations people want, the Twins will end up like KC of the last decade.



And this is why the Twins need to get guys like May and Meyer up here ASAP. They are not going to be all stars the moment they step on the field, so the longer we keep them down, the longer we are pushing back our next contending season.

At this point, 2015 is out of the question. And if some of these guys don't start getting tastes soon (Buxton and Sano injuries hurt), 2016 will soon be out of the question as well.

#24 drjim

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 01:10 PM

And this is why the Twins need to get guys like May and Meyer up here ASAP. They are not going to be all stars the moment they step on the field, so the longer we keep them down, the longer we are pushing back our next contending season.

At this point, 2015 is out of the question. And if some of these guys don't start getting tastes soon (Buxton and Sano injuries hurt), 2016 will soon be out of the question as well.


I don't necessarily agree with this premise. Meyer and May should be up as soon as they are ready - unless that is what you mean by ASAP.

As a counter, do you really think Gibson would be even slightly better this year if had another month of mlb starts last year? I don't think it would make any difference.
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#25 Oxtung

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 01:56 PM

I don't necessarily agree with this premise. Meyer and May should be up as soon as they are ready - unless that is what you mean by ASAP.

As a counter, do you really think Gibson would be even slightly better this year if had another month of mlb starts last year? I don't think it would make any difference.


I think another 10 or so starts for Gibson would have been significant. If they had called him up after April, gaining the extra year of service time, he could have returned to the minors after struggling in the majors and worked on his stuff for 5 or 6 starts at AAA. Then come back up to the majors for another 5 or 6 starts to end his season. He would have had the opportunity to fail then try and adapt, thus giving him immediate feedback on if his changes were successful and for him to work over the offseason what his next steps were to improve his game.

You could argue that wasn't realistic with Gibson given his arm troubles in 2012 and I won't disagree, I'm just trying to point out how a few extra games could have been useful for a pitcher.

#26 Mr. Brooks

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 04:38 PM

I don't necessarily agree with this premise. Meyer and May should be up as soon as they are ready - unless that is what you mean by ASAP.

As a counter, do you really think Gibson would be even slightly better this year if had another month of mlb starts last year? I don't think it would make any difference.


I disagree that May and Meyer are not ready right now.

Meyer is dominating AAA right now. He leads the league in K/9 and K%, he can't be hit (.220 BA against), and has a low HR rate and high GB rate.

I know the counter is his walks and "consistency", but if that is what we are waiting for, then it was a waste to even trade for him. A guy 6'9" is going to issue walks, and is going to have bad games due to losing his mechanics. That is the bad that you take with the good when you have a pitcher that big.

He's as good as he's ever going to get at AAA.

Trevor May HAS been incredibly consistent, at this point I'm left wondering what the argument even is for keeping him down. People keep saying he would be up if not for the injury, but he was pitching consistently before the injury, and still wasn't up, so I'm not buying that.

Yes, I do think that getting these guys feet wet this year would help with next year. In fact to me that seems like almost a guarantee. You can't teach or buy experience. It can only be gained one way, and that is not in AAA.

#27 drjim

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 08:15 PM

I disagree that May and Meyer are not ready right now.

Meyer is dominating AAA right now. He leads the league in K/9 and K%, he can't be hit (.220 BA against), and has a low HR rate and high GB rate.

I know the counter is his walks and "consistency", but if that is what we are waiting for, then it was a waste to even trade for him. A guy 6'9" is going to issue walks, and is going to have bad games due to losing his mechanics. That is the bad that you take with the good when you have a pitcher that big.

He's as good as he's ever going to get at AAA.

Trevor May HAS been incredibly consistent, at this point I'm left wondering what the argument even is for keeping him down. People keep saying he would be up if not for the injury, but he was pitching consistently before the injury, and still wasn't up, so I'm not buying that.

Yes, I do think that getting these guys feet wet this year would help with next year. In fact to me that seems like almost a guarantee. You can't teach or buy experience. It can only be gained one way, and that is not in AAA.


Fair enough, I can read stats too.

You answered my May response, I also believe he would be up if he hadn't gotten hurt.

Meyer is more complicated in my mind. He could come up and be successful, but there are concerns about his third pitch and his fastball command. This season isn't going anywhere, I think it makes sense to develop these two things in a lower stress environment. If he can improve these two things he is an ace.

The key is preference if you want to development them in AAA or at the majors. I disagree the majors is better because he would get exposed, fall back more his two plus pitches, and not develop as well as he should. I assume you would disagree.

I think he would have some success right now in the majors, and also some setbacks. I also think if the Twins were contenders he would be up in the bullpen right now. But they aren't so they have the luxury of patience.
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#28 Sconnie

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 08:31 PM

Nobody should be untouchable, but you don't dig out of this hole by trading the best young, cheap, established players you have. If someone wants to offer something foolish, sure. Otherwise, you keep him.

this team lost 96 games with Dozier as the primary 2b. As good as he is, if you can improve to a greater extent in the future by trading him or another player, do it. Can you get significantly worse?

#29 beckmt

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 08:56 PM

I think the Twins should listen on Dozier. If offer is good enough pull the trigger. Another tread showed the bust potential of any player to be about 80%. If you have 30 reasonably good prospect 6 will be very good and some of the rest will be useful.

#30 Monkeypaws

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 10:59 PM

The way to go is to sell sell sell, and bring up the kids en masse.

Tweeners like Dozier are the hardest to call - the guy is just barely out of his prospect costume.

His D and power alone, coupled with his age and contract status, to me spells keeper.

You need to build around something, and him, Hughes, Perkins, ore a start.