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Santana activated, Herrmann Optioned

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#1 Seth Stohs

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 12:47 PM

The Twins announced that Danny Santana has been activated and Chris Herrmann has been optioned to Rochester.

Santana played 3 games in Ft. Myers on his rehab. He went 0-11, which of course doesn't matter even a little. He played 2 games in CF and one at SS. I'm sure he'll be able to play both places with the Twins, probably most every day.

#2 mike wants wins

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 12:54 PM

Who is a better catcher, Herrman or Fryer?
Lighten up Francis....

#3 TheLeviathan

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 12:56 PM

Will be good to see Santana back.

#4 James

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 01:02 PM

Glad to see Santana back. I wonder if he'll make an appearance in tonight's game.

You can come up with statistics to prove anything. Forty percent of all people know that.


#5 jaimedude2

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 01:22 PM

Who is a better catcher, Herrman or Fryer?

Fryer is the better defensive catcher. I would have thought they would have optioned Callabello but they must want to keep him around for a spot start or pinch hitting duties. Herman offers more flexibility in that he can pinch run, playthe outfield in a pinch and back up catch so they must have not cared about bench flexibility in this situation. Glad to see Santanna back. That and Fryer doesn't have minor league options so they must have been afraid if they outrighted him to AAA that he would be claimed, that or refuse the assignment and become a free agent.
Herman reallly didn't play the whole time he was up here and they must think Suzuki can continue being Scrap Iron Zuki man

Edited by jaimedude2, 18 July 2014 - 01:24 PM.


#6 drjim

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 01:29 PM

Fryer is the better defensive catcher. I would have thought they would have optioned Callabello but they must want to keep him around for a spot start or pinch hitting duties. Herman offers more flexibility in that he can pinch run, playthe outfield in a pinch and back up catch so they must have not cared about bench flexibility in this situation. Glad to see Santanna back. That and Fryer doesn't have minor league options so they must have been afraid if they outrighted him to AAA that he would be claimed, that or refuse the assignment and become a free agent.
Herman reallly didn't play the whole time he was up here and they must think Suzuki can continue being Scrap Iron Zuki man


Fryer does have an option, but he is the better catcher and fills the role of once per week fine. It's not even clear if Herrmann is much of a catcher anymore.
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#7 70charger

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 01:33 PM

I can't believe how this front office enables Gardy's constant, ridiculous need to have three catc... what's that? Oh.

Nevermind.

#8 Willihammer

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 01:36 PM

Is Fryer the better catcher? Some of the (SSS) stats suggest he's no good either.

Lousy bat <> good defense.

#9 Boom Boom

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 01:49 PM

I would think that Herrmann's greatest value would be his ability to catch, but even in AAA this year he's been more of an outfielder.

I get that there's some value in positional flexibility, but in Herrmann's case I'd like to see them focus on catching, because as a spot-starting corner outfielder he's not very valuable.

#10 nicksaviking

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 02:05 PM

I find this pretty amusing. Prospect gurus, front office personell and fans always debate whether Player X will be able to cut it at the premium up the middle positions. However it almost always turns out to be lip service as defense never turns out to be as important when the player gets to the majors.

There was discussion about Santana being too erratic to play SS as recent as this spring. Now he's just fine being plugged in just about anywhere and not a rat's ass is given about any shortcomings. People question whether Jorge Polanco will stick at SS, yet he makes a three level jump to do just that at the MLB level. Can Chris Herrmann catch? Not really. Can Chris Herrmann be a backup catcher at the MLB level? Why the hell not, he already has the glove and knows the signals!

Defensive ability is way over analyzed in the minors. Sure, having a stud glove is nice, but when you get down to brass taxes, at the MLB level you can plug and play most of these guys either where there is a dire need or where the other option is lacking offense.

#11 jokin

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 02:07 PM

I find this pretty amusing. Prospect gurus, front office personell and fans always debate whether Player X will be able to cut it at the premium up the middle positions. However it almost always turns out to be lip service as defense never turns out to be as important when the player gets to the majors.

There was discussion about Santana being too erratic to play SS as recent as this spring. Now he's just fine being plugged in just about anywhere and not a rat's ass is given about any shortcomings. People question whether Jorge Polanco will stick at SS, yet he makes a three level jump to do just that at the MLB level. Can Chris Herrmann catch? Not really. Can Chris Herrmann be a backup catcher at the MLB level? Why the hell not, he already has the glove and knows the signals!

Defensive ability is way over analyzed in the minors. Sure, having a stud glove is nice, but when you get down to brass taxes, at the MLB level you can plug and play most of these guys either where there is a dire need or where the other option is lacking offense.


+1. Santana case in point. He's literally learning on the job in CF, surviving on sheer athleticism.

#12 drjim

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 02:25 PM

Catching is a different animal.

And yes, players can come up and plug a position for a stretch of games. Parmelee played a game in CF and it didn't kill the Twins. But this analysis is based over a longer view where the shortcomings will be exposed.
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#13 nicksaviking

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 02:43 PM

Catching is a different animal.

And yes, players can come up and plug a position for a stretch of games. Parmelee played a game in CF and it didn't kill the Twins. But this analysis is based over a longer view where the shortcomings will be exposed.


Asdrubal Cabrera and Jed Lowrie are still playing SS, and as free agents this offseason will likely get paid to do so for another team. If they were back in A ball, everyone would be screaming that there's NO WAY they stay at the position.

Exposed shortcomings still don't dictate a move more often than not.

#14 drjim

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 03:00 PM

Asdrubal Cabrera and Jed Lowrie are still playing SS, and as free agents this offseason will likely get paid to do so for another team. If they were back in A ball, everyone would be screaming that there's NO WAY they stay at the position.

Exposed shortcomings still don't dictate a move more often than not.


For the record, I agree with you on all positions but catcher. The fears of the minors can definitely be overstated. I would stick Santana at SS for the rest of the season and plan on him starting there opening day 2015.

But the concerns for Santana always struck me as more consistency issues over tools issues (that is, no concerns about arm or range). That can play much better than say the arm concerns of Polanco.
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#15 ChiTownTwinsFan

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 03:14 PM

Glad to see Santana back. I wonder if he'll make an appearance in tonight's game.


Yup ... in center ... game thread with lineups just posted.

#16 old nurse

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 03:20 PM

Asdrubal Cabrera and Jed Lowrie are still playing SS, and as free agents this offseason will likely get paid to do so for another team. If they were back in A ball, everyone would be screaming that there's NO WAY they stay at the position.

Exposed shortcomings still don't dictate a move more often than not.


Exposed shortcoming dictate what you need to fix on the roster. Likely with their shortcomings they will be playing for another team. A team that looks at the good years the player had and thinks the player might get back to that while playing for a bargain.
What they were like in A ball is a completely different issue as you are still looking at what they can develop into versus what they can actually do.

#17 TheLeviathan

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 04:46 PM

Exposed shortcoming dictate what you need to fix on the roster. Likely with their shortcomings they will be playing for another team. A team that looks at the good years the player had and thinks the player might get back to that while playing for a bargain.
What they were like in A ball is a completely different issue as you are still looking at what they can develop into versus what they can actually do.


The issue nick is talking about, IMO, is more that minor league defensive abilities are WAY over-analyzed. For me, the best explanation is that scouts aren't watching on a daily basis which is the only really good way to get a feel for a guy's abilities.

You can't pull up the player's numbers like you can with BB rates, OPS, strikeouts, etc. Defensive stats aren't even available to the same degree much less the fact that when they are they are flakey at best.

I don't put much of any stock into a minor league player's defensive profile. Hell, Delmon Young was, at one point, supposed to be a future gold glover. Delmon Young!

#18 Thrylos

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 05:50 PM

Does anyone have any evidence (other than anecdotal or opinions) that Fryer is a better catcher than Herrmann? Just trying to figure out how that rumor got started, because it was Herrmann (and not Fryer) who in the near past was ranked the best defensive catching prospect of his organization by BA.

We know who the better hitter of the two is...
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#19 jokin

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 11:01 PM

The Twins announced that Danny Santana has been activated and Chris Herrmann has been optioned to Rochester.

Santana played 3 games in Ft. Myers on his rehab. He went 0-11, which of course doesn't matter even a little. .


Maybe just a little? Combined Ft Myers/Twins ABs this week, Santana is now 1-20 with 9 strikeouts (includes one infield hit on Friday), including 0-4 with 4 Ks tonight. He looks like he's really lost his timing and confidence altogether for the time being.

#20 jokin

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 10:15 AM

Maybe just a little? Combined Ft Myers/Twins ABs this week, Santana is now 1-20 with 9 strikeouts (includes one infield hit on Friday), including 0-4 with 4 Ks tonight. He looks like he's really lost his timing and confidence altogether for the time being.


Good to see the media is also taking notice of this situation, as well, Berardino is one of the best:

[COLOR=#8899A6][FONT=Gotham Narrow SSm]Mike Berardino [COLOR=#8899A6]@MikeBerardino[/COLOR] ·

1m
[/FONT][/COLOR][FONT=Gotham Narrow SSm]Danny Santana, 1 for 20 w/9 Ks over past 5 games (including rehab), sits today. Swing is "out of whack," Gardy said. Extra work w/Bruno.
[/FONT]

#21 jokin

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 11:20 AM

Good to see the media is also taking notice of this situation, as well, Berardino is one of the best:

[COLOR=#8899A6][FONT=Gotham Narrow SSm]Mike Berardino [COLOR=#8899A6]@MikeBerardino[/COLOR] ·

1m
[/FONT][/COLOR][FONT=Gotham Narrow SSm]Danny Santana, 1 for 20 w/9 Ks over past 5 games (including rehab), sits today. Swing is "out of whack," Gardy said. Extra work w/Bruno.
[/FONT]


Berardino follows up his tweet with a little article featuring Gardy's comments concerning the situation

Danny Santana’s swing is “out of whack,” Gardy says


http://blogs.twincit...ck-gardy-says/:

[COLOR=#000000][FONT=arial]More experienced players might be able to come off a hit-free rehab assignment with their confidence intact. With a younger player like Santana, that can be a taller order.

[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#000000][FONT=arial]“You never know until you get them back up here,” Gardenhire said. “That’s the thing. They can go down there and get 15 hits in a row and come up here and not hit anything. You just never know which way it’s going to turn out. Some guys can handle it. Some guys can’t. We’ll see if he can work his way through it here.”[/FONT][/COLOR]

Edited by jokin, 20 July 2014 - 01:18 PM.


#22 drjim

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 01:13 PM

Fully agree jokin.

I never understood this "performance on rehab means nothing" or "call him up, leave him alone, and he'll be fine" attitude with younger players.
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#23 stringer bell

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 06:15 PM

Sometimes it matters, sometimes it doesn't. I think it is overstating it to say that if a guy goes 0-11 it doesn't matter at all, however if he goes 2-4 the next couple of days everybody forgets. Of course, it can work just the opposite. Willingham had a short rehab at Rochester where he hit .185, but it was hardly mentioned because he came back hitting well.

#24 jokin

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 06:45 PM

Sometimes it matters, sometimes it doesn't. I think it is overstating it to say that if a guy goes 0-11 it doesn't matter at all, however if he goes 2-4 the next couple of days everybody forgets. Of course, it can work just the opposite. Willingham had a short rehab at Rochester where he hit .185, but it was hardly mentioned because he came back hitting well.


As was mentioned early in post #22, an established veteran coming off a rehab assignment is a different situation altogether from a young guy attempting the same thing. As was discussed before Santana's injury, the sustainability of his numbers was always problematic, the extended time off exacerbated that reality.

Edited by jokin, 20 July 2014 - 06:47 PM.