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#121 James

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 10:19 AM

Whether you go here or Forbes, the Astros made between $186M and $196M last year.

I agree with your post for the most part. But (this forum seems to go through this every time Forbes releases estimated values of team), something that needs to be clarified is that revenues are not equal to profits. So, it's not like they have $196M floating around and are fighting with Aiken over a fraction of that. That number doesn't take into account any of their expenses. Did the Astros make a profit last year? I don't know, but it seems pretty likely.

This article really just highlights how bad planning/preparation and failure to examine the other negotiating party's position has put Houston in a really bad position not just for this year, but for the near future as well.

You can come up with statistics to prove anything. Forty percent of all people know that.


#122 JB_Iowa

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 10:26 AM

This was a great article and a great share.

This situation would probably make a great case study for a negotiations class (probably a more advanced one). But it was an interesting situation and this article does a great job of breaking down the situation of both the players involved and the Astros.


Yeah, I think this could be a case study for a negotiations class for years to come. It's going to be really interesting to see how it all shakes out.

And from a human standpoint, sometime I'd love to learn the Astros motivation for going down to the 40% and then at the last minute upping to $5 million. I see the $5 million offer as a publicity stunt to try to appease their fans more than as a way to try to salvage the deal. I just think that $3.2 million (40% of slot) was such an insult to the other party they had to have known that it would pretty much cut off negotiations.

#123 JB_Iowa

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 10:33 AM

twinsfan34, I agree with much of what you say -- I'm just not sure if they actually crossed any legal lines.

The Astros' behavior is also a good one for an ethics course. I've been thinking a little about this in relation to the "trade Perkins" thread and the arguments there about the ethics of trading Perkins shortly after his extension.

The Astros seem to be one of the teams most wedded to analytics with little regard for ethical concerns. As though they are constantly pushing the envelope.

#124 James

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 10:38 AM

Yeah, I think this could be a case study for a negotiations class for years to come. It's going to be really interesting to see how it all shakes out.

And from a human standpoint, sometime I'd love to learn the Astros motivation for going down to the 40% and then at the last minute upping to $5 million. I see the $5 million offer as a publicity stunt to try to appease their fans more than as a way to try to salvage the deal. I just think that $3.2 million (40% of slot) was such an insult to the other party they had to have known that it would pretty much cut off negotiations.

The formal offer was clearly made to ensure that they received draft pick compensation. They knew that there was absolutely no way that Aiken was going to accept that offer. To me, that just shows that they were no longer negotiating in good faith, and that is probably how Aiken/Close felt as well.

You can come up with statistics to prove anything. Forty percent of all people know that.


#125 Brandon

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 10:53 AM

One of the issues I see from reading about this is that he Astros negotiated with something they didn't completely have (overage of the pool to go over slot to sign a draft pick with out penalty) They do have the money and they did negotiate with it but they did not have the penalty free part secured. So with an agreement in understanding an the player acting on that agreement is it enforceable? With regards to Aiken what happened is understandable but where it gets murky is with the player who believed an agreement was in place.

#126 twinsfan34

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 03:03 PM

The formal offer was clearly made to ensure that they received draft pick compensation. They knew that there was absolutely no way that Aiken was going to accept that offer. To me, that just shows that they were no longer negotiating in good faith, and that is probably how Aiken/Close felt as well.


Iowa, James, et al. Great points. I was definitely aiming 'strong'...right or wrong.

The 'overall direction' would be that it seems that the Astros are attempting to go 'cheap' and not in good faith in dealing with their players and putting a competitive product out there.

For context I will 'divulge' that my strategy does involve a point where it's 'time to sell' in it, namely each year when my team(s) are beyond competing, I'm very much for try the youth movement and in essence 'giving up'...or at least 'sell mode'...but I do believe that's being competitive still as you're trying to be better (next year). But I do believe I would need to put up a spirited fight/team together at first, or at least to the best of the abilities and assets allocated to me.


Application: At this point with the Twins, I'm in 'sell mode'...but I do believe they gave an 'honest effort' to be competitive at the beginning of the year vs a "doormat to the West" like I believe the Astros have been doing the past 3, now 4 years. The Astros should have had Springer up Day 1. He honestly should have gotten a few AB's in Sept last year, if not solidly in the mix on opening day. I understand Super 2 as well as anyone. But at $26M last year and the $50M this year, $60M in 2012...they'll have plenty of money saved up to pay Springer that money going forward. The 'average' team salary is around $78M NOT counting the outliers of the Red Sox, Dodgers, Phillies, Yankees...

Astros Salary Info:
http://www.baseballp...houston-astros/
http://www.baseball-.../HOU/2013.shtml

#127 JB_Iowa

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 05:31 PM


#128 JB_Iowa

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 05:33 PM

http://www.mlbtrader...raft-picks.html

#129 biggentleben

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 05:53 PM


I have a feeling it will be thrown out pretty quick. The MLBPA cannot act on the behalf of players who are not part of their union. The legal action with a chance is a civil suit against baseball to get free agency for the players, but nothing MLBPA does should be able to hold water unless the arbiter chooses to ignore the CBA.
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#130 JB_Iowa

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 06:08 PM

I don't know about the standing issue. If you interpret it that only the players have standing and that the union does not have independent standing to enforce the terms of the draft and slotting system then you have a system in the Collective Bargaining Agreement without an internal means of enforcement (i.e. there could never be a grievance).

I have to think that the union is somehow filing the grievance not just on behalf of these (non-) players but also on its own behalf. Will take some creative bootstrapping and may well not be successful but I'm betting that the union is claiming injury on its own behalf.

#131 biggentleben

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 06:10 PM

I don't know about the standing issue. If you interpret it that only the players have standing and that the union does not have independent standing to enforce the terms of the draft and slotting system then you have a system in the Collective Bargaining Agreement without an internal means of enforcement (i.e. there could never be a grievance).

I have to think that the union is somehow filing the grievance not just on behalf of these (non-) players but also on its own behalf. Will take some creative bootstrapping and may well not be successful but I'm betting that the union is claiming injury on its own behalf.


The union doesn't represent drafted players, so they cannot file anything on their behalf. Even if they signed, the MLBPA doesn't represent them until they're in the major leagues the way the current CBA is drawn up. This smells of Tony Clark trying to get good PR for the MLBPA in spite of their own greed putting these players in this situation.
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#132 JB_Iowa

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 06:13 PM

The union doesn't represent drafted players, so they cannot file anything on their behalf. Even if they signed, the MLBPA doesn't represent them until they're in the major leagues the way the current CBA is drawn up.


I get that. I'm saying that the union is going to claim it has the right to enforce the provisions because IT is a party to the CBA and has suffered an injury because of the Astros actions. As I said, it will take some creative lawyering and I don't think it will be successful but I'm betting that the union is an independent party to the grievance.

#133 biggentleben

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 06:16 PM

I get that. I'm saying that the union is going to claim it has the right to enforce the provisions because IT is a party to the CBA and has suffered an injury because of the Astros actions. As I said, it will take some creative lawyering and I don't think it will be successful but I'm betting that the union is an independent party to the grievance.


Yep. Basically a PR thing for Clark, and it will surprise me if they really are willing to make a stand in CBA negotiations on this issue or a medical combine.
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#134 gunnarthor

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 07:55 PM

JB_Iowa is right on the standing issue, the union has the right to file grievances on behalf of Nix and Aiken, which is apparently what they've done.

#135 gunnarthor

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 08:22 PM

Wow, the Astros get another hit - Carlos Correa won't be ready for the Arizona Fall League. Rough, rough day for Astros fans.

http://blog.chron.co...urn/#22102101=0

And Appel is pitching later tonight, maybe he can get his era under 10.00

#136 diehardtwinsfan

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 04:33 AM

I'm not a lawyer, but I have to think that they can file a grievance over anything that they've negotiated in the CBA if they feel it's being violated.

#137 biggentleben

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 09:38 AM

JB_Iowa is right on the standing issue, the union has the right to file grievances on behalf of Nix and Aiken, which is apparently what they've done.


It's entirely based on process. According to the reports I've seen on the grievance, players names were not mentioned at all, just the process utilized.
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#138 JB_Iowa

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Posted 27 July 2014 - 11:35 AM

This isn't about the Aiken/Nix mess.

 

But it sure seems like the Astros have a mess:

http://hardballtalk....ion-in-houston/


#139 diehardtwinsfan

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Posted 27 July 2014 - 12:37 PM

yeah, I think the GM is unemployed this offseason.


#140 mike wants wins

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 08:22 AM

How is the Appel thing bad? Teams do this all the time. Another stupid unwritten rule thing. It's like these guys are not even adults sometimes.

What I just typed is probably an opinion, not a fact. I mean, I'm usually right, so you should maybe assume it is or will be a fact soon, but that's up to you. :)


#141 gunnarthor

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 08:40 AM

How is the Appel thing bad? Teams do this all the time. Another stupid unwritten rule thing. It's like these guys are not even adults sometimes.

 

Actually, I don't think teams do that very often at all.  I certainly don't remember any Twin minor leaguer coming up to Target Field (except right after they sign and do the post draft media swing).  And I also don't think it would've gone over that well at Twins Daily if the Twins had drafted Appel, saw him absolutely suck at A ball and then promote him anyway and give him a pitching session at TF.  I suspect some people would find a way to ****** about that.

 

One of the Astros beat writer tweeted a lot more about this.  Basically, players on the ML team think that the FO isn't concerned about the ML team at all.  The Springer signing fiasco left a bad taste in some players mouth (Springer was offered a team friendly contract, didn't take it and was sent to AAA instead).  So, yeah, in one sense it doesn't matter that Appel threw a bullpen session and nothing will happen b/c of it.  On the other side, it's somewhat similar to the Joe Mauer bi-lateral leg crap when players were complaining about Joe.  There is a sense of entitlement that a player is getting - in Joe's case, he at least had a track record.  Appel is not viewed as warmly.

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#142 mike wants wins

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 08:44 AM

Appel was having issues. they wanted their coaches to get a look at him. How would you go about doing that, other than having him throw in front of them?

What I just typed is probably an opinion, not a fact. I mean, I'm usually right, so you should maybe assume it is or will be a fact soon, but that's up to you. :)


#143 gunnarthor

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 08:52 AM

Appel was having issues. they wanted their coaches to get a look at him. How would you go about doing that, other than having him throw in front of them?

Not saying it was wrong but it isn't common.  Most teams have roving instructors.  When Shooter Hunt lost the ability to throw strikes, the Twins didn't send him to Anderson or Blyleven for a one time evaluation.  

 

And I'm not sure how much help one bullpen session could possibly be.  It seems like - and players certainly viewed it as - an entitlement to a guy who hadn't deserved it.  Long run, there's no harm in it but there's also no harm in the ML players express their anger over it.


#144 mike wants wins

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 09:04 AM

Why are they angry though? What harm did it do anyone, other than to some unwritten belief? No one was cut that shouldn't be. No one was hurt by this.

 

He should not have been in that band box place in the first place, imo. Now he won't be. We'll see what happens in a couple of years, but I'd still role the die on him being very good.

What I just typed is probably an opinion, not a fact. I mean, I'm usually right, so you should maybe assume it is or will be a fact soon, but that's up to you. :)


#145 kab21

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 09:12 AM

The Appel thing should be a complete non-issue in an organization.  The fact that it pissed people off says that this is a very unhappy clubhouse.

 

I wouldn't think anything if the Stewart or Thorpe (in Cedar Rapids) were given a bullpen session at Target Field if their mechanics fell apart.  Frankly everything should be tried when a top prospect (pick 1.1) completely falls apart like this.

I look forward to the day that a pitching prospect is truly blocked by good pitchers.


#146 JB_Iowa

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 09:22 AM

The Appel thing should be a complete non-issue in an organization.  The fact that it pissed people off says that this is a very unhappy clubhouse.

 

 

But actually that was the point of bringing this up.  The Astros are a mess.  If you had an organization where players and prospects felt they were treated with respect, this probably would never have come up.

 

But Astros management has decided that they are going to be the smart kids on the block.  They are taking analytics to the extreme and playing extreme hardball with their prospects and draft choices (and I can only guess from this event that their major league players aren't treated much better).

 

There are some things that I find really interesting in what the Astros are doing -- for example, the idea of using analytics to determine if some players are more injury-likely than others -- but it seems like in their pursuit of all things analytical, they have forgotten that there is also a human element to the equation and that EVERYONE -- players, fans, prospects -- does better if they are treated with respect.

 

There has to be a balance.

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#147 drjim

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 09:31 AM

I suspect the majority of this is more narrative than reality, but they have lost control of the narrative and people are going to be looking for quotes and stories that confirm the narrative.

 

These stories show some of the pitfalls of sudden, drastic change in any industry, especially one as conservative as baseball. If you come out with a certain attitude people are going to enjoy bringing you down. And the massive amounts of losses certainly don't help either.

Papers...business papers.

#148 gunnarthor

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 09:43 AM

Why are they angry though? What harm did it do anyone, other than to some unwritten belief? No one was cut that shouldn't be. No one was hurt by this.

 

He should not have been in that band box place in the first place, imo. Now he won't be. We'll see what happens in a couple of years, but I'd still role the die on him being very good.

 

 

I think JB_Iowa hits it on the head.  And I suspect the totality of the players anger was "Why is that ****** up here?  What the ****!" and then they moved on with their lives.