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Why is Kevin Correia so reviled?

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#1 Monkeypaws

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 03:50 PM

Yeah he ain't Greg Maddux. But he make an MLB paltry 5 mil a season, and is capable of a quality start.

i've always sensed an inordinate amount of bile spewed his way, when he is payed for and fills his role to a T.

illuminate me.

if anyone deserves the business it is Nolasco.

#2 JB_Iowa

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 04:04 PM

It goes back to the failure of the front office to add better pitching in the 2012-2013 off-season. Correia has been fine as a 5th starter but fans were looking for the Twins to do more so Correia (and the 2-year contract) became the focus of a lot of anger. It seemed like they were adding a pitcher who could pretty much be matched by someone in the system. Also when people looked at his advanced metrics, it just didn't seem like he was bringing much (and that is still a problem in the trade market if you look at some of the articles about trade possibilities).

He is also someone who seems to take awhile to get on track in the season so the anger/disgust has time to build.

He is not deserving of all of the venom sent his way .... it was more appropriately spewed on the front office.

But I do think that the venom about Correia has dissipated somewhat.

Edited by JB_Iowa, 12 July 2014 - 04:17 PM.


#3 JB_Iowa

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 04:26 PM


#4 pierre75275

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 04:46 PM

its mainly cuz he dared to sign for nick punto money

#5 gunnarthor

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 04:54 PM

JB Iowa has it right. I also think a good portion of people expected him to be much worse last year and have been waiting for the other shoe to drop to unload more on the FO.

#6 Kwak

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 05:07 PM

I believe because they viewed the KC signing as a copout--another cut-rate, Band-Aid, to give the appearance of trying to solve the "pitching problems" while reducing the payroll. There has been very few statements in the past year or so about the payroll differences between 2011 and the present, in TD, but it was a hot topic before the start of this season. Posters expected (demanded?) that better pitching be signed than KC. If KC had been the 3rd "best" FA pitcher (at the time he signed) he probably wouldn't have been maligned or certainly not to the degree that occured. Also, KC was derided as another PtoC, "Twins'-type" pitcher which most posters blamed as the source of the "pitching problems". Basically, he wasn't "the guy" and thus was incessently flamed.

#7 Monkeypaws

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 05:12 PM

I believe because they viewed the KC signing as a copout--another cut-rate, Band-Aid, to give the appearance of trying to solve the "pitching problems" while reducing the payroll. There has been very few statements in the past year or so about the payroll differences between 2011 and the present, in TD, but it was a hot topic before the start of this season. Posters expected (demanded?) that better pitching be signed than KC. If KC had been the 3rd "best" FA pitcher (at the time he signed) he probably wouldn't have been maligned or certainly not to the degree that occured. Also, KC was derided as another PtoC, "Twins'-type" pitcher which most posters blamed as the source of the "pitching problems". Basically, he wasn't "the guy" and thus was incessently flamed.


Thanks Kwak - this explains it better than his performance.

#8 Thegrin

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 05:38 PM

Kevin Correia pitching = men on base, tension, few strike outs, many foul balls. No matter the result, few KC games are pleasant to watch.

#9 Monkeypaws

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 05:56 PM

A guy that can win more or less as many games as he loses, get in the vicinity of 200 IP, and keep his ERA under 5, is acceptable, this coming from a fan who saw Terry Felton being declared "untouchable" by Calvin Griffith.

The Twins of the 60's were pitching rich, otherwise, pretty much never.

#10 goulik

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 05:58 PM

In the end all fans want one thing, Ws not Ls. No matter the other stats, he is 5-11 this year, 9-13 last year, and 12-11 the two seasons before coming to Minni. Career is 73-89 and he is paid millions.
Irrational use of numbers? Yes. Sorta like the level of Mauer bashing the past couple years.

#11 TheLeviathan

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 06:11 PM

It goes back to the failure of the front office to add better pitching in the 2012-2013 off-season.


This. He is the embodiment of that failure.

#12 diehardtwinsfan

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 06:31 PM

I did a mid-year study on the 2012 free agents, and it turned into an 18+ page thread that closed due to a lot of arguing. The end result, if I remember correctly, was that Correia was actually one of the better 2012 gets that we had a shot at, and most of that pitching class ended up having some pretty bad seasons. I'm not sure if the KC pickup was a 'cheaping out' type deal or if the FO simply thought that this was the best option. I do think that most of us were pretty down on what we ended up with, but it's quite possible that we'd have one or two really bad contracts at this stage of the game had they done what everyone on this board (myself included) wanted.

That said, I do agree that much of the KC hatred is probably a bit misdirected. That said, he's pitching pretty well right now, so I hope that means he can turn and net us a decent prospect later this month.

#13 DocBauer

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 07:39 PM

There is certainly nothing special about KC. And that's where the angst comes in. As stated, the Twins needed SP solutions, and Correia was seen as filler, not someone to help lead a staff.

Honestly, if you look at how well he pitched once the season got under way, you could say the same things about Pelfrey. For the bulk of last season, both actually pitched quite solid for a losing team.

Its also timing, to a degree. Everyone wanted more than them, and the Twins needed more. Now, with Hughes and Gibson, and let's say a soon-to-be healthy Nolasco, a signing of KC, or Pelfrey for that matter, would also be met with discouragement, even if they were unto themselves very positive 4-5 starters with the likes of May and Meyer in the immediate wings.

"Nice catch Hayes...don't ever f*****g do it again."

 

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#14 stringer bell

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 08:02 PM

The reason Kevin Correia is the Rodney Dangerfield of the Twins Daily forum is that many of the "experts" on here predicted he would fail spectacularly. Since that hasn't happened, they jump on the bad starts and for the most part ignore the good ones. I get the feeling that quite a few around here would love to see him fail, even if it meant the Twins losing, just so they could be proven "right".

I don't think that is fair. Correia is the prototypical back-of-the-rotation starter. He has a very limited upside and he doesn't really have a plus pitch. He has an extremely small margin for error, so he doesn't have to be off by much to be hit really hard. I think most TD posters didn't hate Correia as much as they hated hearing JR say "he was a pretty darn good pitcher" or something to that effect.

That said, he has had a long career and made a great living with pretty ordinary talent. I respect what he has accomplished, but a game pitched by Kevin Correia excites me none at all.

#15 drjim

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 08:13 PM

I did a mid-year study on the 2012 free agents, and it turned into an 18+ page thread that closed due to a lot of arguing. The end result, if I remember correctly, was that Correia was actually one of the better 2012 gets that we had a shot at, and most of that pitching class ended up having some pretty bad seasons. I'm not sure if the KC pickup was a 'cheaping out' type deal or if the FO simply thought that this was the best option. I do think that most of us were pretty down on what we ended up with, but it's quite possible that we'd have one or two really bad contracts at this stage of the game had they done what everyone on this board (myself included) wanted.

That said, I do agree that much of the KC hatred is probably a bit misdirected. That said, he's pitching pretty well right now, so I hope that means he can turn and net us a decent prospect later this month.


The 2012 free agency class was historically awful while the Twins also desperately needed pitching. Terrible combination. My argument has always been that people wanted the Twins to sign a caliber of pitcher that didn't exist that offseason and Correia hate is the projection of that.

EDIT: I should add that Correia has done pretty much exactly what the Twins expected when he signed. He took the ball every five days, ate some innings, and bought some time for depth to be developed behind him. As a bonus, they might even be able to flip him for a prospect in the next couple of weeks.

He certainly wasn't sexy, but ended up being just mediocre enough not to be a disaster that everyone thought (hoped?) he would be.

Edited by drjim, 12 July 2014 - 08:18 PM.

Papers...business papers.

#16 Thor

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 10:14 PM

deadline deals are usually made to help a playoff team. If you think you have a 5% chance at the playoffs do you really think you are going to give anything up for KC?

Everyone needs to remember this isn't the local poker game. There are only 30 GM's in the game and they are all paid very well for knowing baseball. We ain't trying to scam some Joe on the street with a used car we have to scam a guy making a couple-few million with his job on the line.

I would love to see KC traded but I damn sure wouldn't want to be a fan of the team that pulled off the deal to get him, especially if there is any chance of being in the race.

#17 diehardtwinsfan

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 10:43 PM

deadline deals are usually made to help a playoff team. If you think you have a 5% chance at the playoffs do you really think you are going to give anything up for KC?

Everyone needs to remember this isn't the local poker game. There are only 30 GM's in the game and they are all paid very well for knowing baseball. We ain't trying to scam some Joe on the street with a used car we have to scam a guy making a couple-few million with his job on the line.

I would love to see KC traded but I damn sure wouldn't want to be a fan of the team that pulled off the deal to get him, especially if there is any chance of being in the race.


I think that depends on who he's replacing. The reality is that there isn't a whole lot of good pitching on the market right now... and look what the Cubs got from Oakland...

What I can say is this. If every 5 days you are trotting out the Andrew Albers of the world b/c you don't have much better, KC is looking like a godsend, and you won't need to give up an Addison Russel to get him.

#18 Shane Wahl

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 11:59 PM

Truly, truly excited for Correia to be making his trade-bait case.

#19 Willihammer

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 01:43 AM

Yeah he ain't Greg Maddux. But he make an MLB paltry 5 mil a season, and is capable of a quality start.


Correia is capable of throwing strikes, but I don't believe he's capable of dictating the results when those pitches are inevitably put in play.

Take today for example. Correia had one strikeout to 8 flyouts. I can think of at least three that had to have been driven 380+ feet. But no home runs. Meanwhile a fifth of his groundouts were turned for a double play. His xFIP for the day? 6.42. So, Correia had a quality start today because Correia got lucky today. He wasn't any more skilful than his April and May starts when he got lit up.

That is the crux of my revulsion with the PTC love affair that the Correia signing embodies - every start is a gamble. The Twins were just hoping to get lucky.

#20 h2oface

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 03:05 AM

if anyone deserves the business it is Nolasco.


I think they have both deserved the business when they have received it.

#21 h2oface

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 03:12 AM

He is also someone who seems to take awhile to get on track in the season so the anger/disgust has time to build.


Looking at his career, I notice just the opposite. Correia, including last year, has tended to start well, and fade as the seasons goes on. He was pretty horrid to start this year, but with half the season left, if he follows form, which can certainly be different this year perhaps, we are seeing a delayed "beginning" of the season. Time will tell. It is great that he is earning his pay lately, for sure.

#22 spycake

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 06:22 AM

I think that depends on who he's replacing. The reality is that there isn't a whole lot of good pitching on the market right now... and look what the Cubs got from Oakland...

What I can say is this. If every 5 days you are trotting out the Andrew Albers of the world b/c you don't have much better, KC is looking like a godsend, and you won't need to give up an Addison Russel to get him.


Albers may have been a desperation patch, but he prevented runs in his 10 starts as well as KC ever has.

And most contending teams probably don't have an Albers type permanently in the rotation. They might have a prospect there a little early, or be waiting for a starter to return from the DL. Of course, if you have specific examples and precedents, I am all ears.

#23 Thor

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 06:35 AM

And most contending teams probably don't have an Albers type permanently in the rotation. They might have a prospect there a little early, or be waiting for a starter to return from the DL. Of course, if you have specific examples and precedents, I am all ears.


That is exactly the point I was trying to make. If you are a contender your #5 is probally at worst a KC lookalike and more likely a whole lot better.

THe only spot I can see a marginal pitcher going is the Yanks because of the whole Jeter's last year thing BUT I would bet a lot that they would do almost anything to get somebody better in there. The only way I see that happen is 5 minutes before the deadline and they have exhausted every other avenue.

#24 Sconnie

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 07:04 AM

Spot on Shane, I don't dislike the guy, it's that the Twins have pitchers in the minors that I would rather see. Similar for Nolasco, except he hasn't pitched up to his career averages. Were Nolasco pitch to his career averages, I'm fine with him as the number 4 type starter.

Edited by Sconnie, 13 July 2014 - 07:09 AM.


#25 old nurse

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 07:20 AM

That is exactly the point I was trying to make. If you are a contender your #5 is probally at worst a KC lookalike and more likely a whole lot better.

THe only spot I can see a marginal pitcher going is the Yanks because of the whole Jeter's last year thing BUT I would bet a lot that they would do almost anything to get somebody better in there. The only way I see that happen is 5 minutes before the deadline and they have exhausted every other avenue.

Not trying to inflame but Correia has been about like every other Twins back of the rotation guy, just without the hope of getting better.


Toronto JAHapp this year 4.91 ERA, Career ERA 4.31
Yankees Chas Whitley, Brandon McCarthy
St Louis was down to starting Marco Gonzales (soft tossing lefty)
Pittsburg, Vanimal.
You are correct in that teams go to every other avenue. A faded star, AA players with no great track record in AA, formerly high prospect, spring srcap heap, best AAA before the will give up something for a pitcher that eats innings and pitches just well enough to keep you in games for a career.

Edited by old nurse, 13 July 2014 - 07:22 AM.


#26 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 07:29 AM

That is exactly the point I was trying to make. If you are a contender your #5 is probally at worst a KC lookalike and more likely a whole lot better.


A whole lot better? Unlikely. Last season, Correia pitched close to 200 innings with an ERA just a hair under league average.

Most teams - even contenders - don't have that as a fifth starter, if only for consistency.

Correia was good for a win and a half over replacement level last season. That's nothing to scoff at.

#27 JB_Iowa

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 08:52 AM

Looking at his career, I notice just the opposite. Correia, including last year, has tended to start well, and fade as the seasons goes on. He was pretty horrid to start this year, but with half the season left, if he follows form, which can certainly be different this year perhaps, we are seeing a delayed "beginning" of the season. Time will tell. It is great that he is earning his pay lately, for sure.


Well, going back and looking at his game logs for 2013, you are definitely right. He had had a great April and decent May and June and then it got worse.

So I'm not really sure why the venom from the 2012-2013 off-season seemed to keep building except that he just doesn't show any stuff to inspire confidence. Even in many of his recent starts where he's had good results, it often feels like he is dancing on the edge.

#28 SpiritofVodkaDave

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 08:55 AM

I was one of the very few who didn't mind and actually liked the move. It worked out pretty well for the twins as he certainly earned his money and saved them potentially from rushing someone up in his spot earlier then need be.

If he can net us a C prospect, even better.

Correia likely will get another 1 or 2year contact this off season.

#29 spycake

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 11:25 AM

A whole lot better? Unlikely. Last season, Correia pitched close to 200 innings with an ERA just a hair under league average.

Most teams - even contenders - don't have that as a fifth starter, if only for consistency.

Correia was good for a win and a half over replacement level last season. That's nothing to scoff at.


That level of performance is useful, but it also represents Correia's career best. On average, he is notably worse, something like an 84 career ERA+. I would be surprised if such starters are regularly traded to contenders, particularly when they are in the middle of a typical season.

Edit to add: put another way, we are rightly concerned when guys like Hughes, Nolasco, Liriano, Pelfrey, Ervin Santana, Ubaldo Jinenez, etc. have a terrible year around 80 ERA+ on their resume. Well, Correia basically averages that low level of performance (84 career ERA+ as a starter).

Edited by spycake, 13 July 2014 - 11:57 AM.


#30 TheLeviathan

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 11:43 AM

Let's all just pray he's dealt and not extended.