Jump to content

Providing independent coverage of the Minnesota Twins.

Subscribe to Twins Daily Email

Photo

Why is Kevin Correia so reviled?

  • Please log in to reply
59 replies to this topic

#1 Monkeypaws

Monkeypaws

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 842 posts

Posted 12 July 2014 - 03:50 PM

Yeah he ain't Greg Maddux. But he make an MLB paltry 5 mil a season, and is capable of a quality start.

i've always sensed an inordinate amount of bile spewed his way, when he is payed for and fills his role to a T.

illuminate me.

if anyone deserves the business it is Nolasco.

#2 JB_Iowa

JB_Iowa

    Let The Winning Begin!

  • Members
  • 4,537 posts
  • LocationNorthwest Iowa

Posted 12 July 2014 - 04:04 PM

It goes back to the failure of the front office to add better pitching in the 2012-2013 off-season. Correia has been fine as a 5th starter but fans were looking for the Twins to do more so Correia (and the 2-year contract) became the focus of a lot of anger. It seemed like they were adding a pitcher who could pretty much be matched by someone in the system. Also when people looked at his advanced metrics, it just didn't seem like he was bringing much (and that is still a problem in the trade market if you look at some of the articles about trade possibilities).

He is also someone who seems to take awhile to get on track in the season so the anger/disgust has time to build.

He is not deserving of all of the venom sent his way .... it was more appropriately spewed on the front office.

But I do think that the venom about Correia has dissipated somewhat.

Edited by JB_Iowa, 12 July 2014 - 04:17 PM.


#3 JB_Iowa

JB_Iowa

    Let The Winning Begin!

  • Members
  • 4,537 posts
  • LocationNorthwest Iowa

Posted 12 July 2014 - 04:26 PM


#4 pierre75275

pierre75275

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 317 posts

Posted 12 July 2014 - 04:46 PM

its mainly cuz he dared to sign for nick punto money

#5 gunnarthor

gunnarthor

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 3,668 posts

Posted 12 July 2014 - 04:54 PM

JB Iowa has it right. I also think a good portion of people expected him to be much worse last year and have been waiting for the other shoe to drop to unload more on the FO.

#6 Kwak

Kwak

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 1,667 posts

Posted 12 July 2014 - 05:07 PM

I believe because they viewed the KC signing as a copout--another cut-rate, Band-Aid, to give the appearance of trying to solve the "pitching problems" while reducing the payroll. There has been very few statements in the past year or so about the payroll differences between 2011 and the present, in TD, but it was a hot topic before the start of this season. Posters expected (demanded?) that better pitching be signed than KC. If KC had been the 3rd "best" FA pitcher (at the time he signed) he probably wouldn't have been maligned or certainly not to the degree that occured. Also, KC was derided as another PtoC, "Twins'-type" pitcher which most posters blamed as the source of the "pitching problems". Basically, he wasn't "the guy" and thus was incessently flamed.

#7 Monkeypaws

Monkeypaws

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 842 posts

Posted 12 July 2014 - 05:12 PM

I believe because they viewed the KC signing as a copout--another cut-rate, Band-Aid, to give the appearance of trying to solve the "pitching problems" while reducing the payroll. There has been very few statements in the past year or so about the payroll differences between 2011 and the present, in TD, but it was a hot topic before the start of this season. Posters expected (demanded?) that better pitching be signed than KC. If KC had been the 3rd "best" FA pitcher (at the time he signed) he probably wouldn't have been maligned or certainly not to the degree that occured. Also, KC was derided as another PtoC, "Twins'-type" pitcher which most posters blamed as the source of the "pitching problems". Basically, he wasn't "the guy" and thus was incessently flamed.


Thanks Kwak - this explains it better than his performance.

#8 Thegrin

Thegrin

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 706 posts
  • LocationMinneapolis

Posted 12 July 2014 - 05:38 PM

Kevin Correia pitching = men on base, tension, few strike outs, many foul balls. No matter the result, few KC games are pleasant to watch.

#9 Monkeypaws

Monkeypaws

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 842 posts

Posted 12 July 2014 - 05:56 PM

A guy that can win more or less as many games as he loses, get in the vicinity of 200 IP, and keep his ERA under 5, is acceptable, this coming from a fan who saw Terry Felton being declared "untouchable" by Calvin Griffith.

The Twins of the 60's were pitching rich, otherwise, pretty much never.

#10 goulik

goulik

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 453 posts

Posted 12 July 2014 - 05:58 PM

In the end all fans want one thing, Ws not Ls. No matter the other stats, he is 5-11 this year, 9-13 last year, and 12-11 the two seasons before coming to Minni. Career is 73-89 and he is paid millions.
Irrational use of numbers? Yes. Sorta like the level of Mauer bashing the past couple years.

#11 TheLeviathan

TheLeviathan

    Twins News Team

  • Twins News Team
  • 6,258 posts

Posted 12 July 2014 - 06:11 PM

It goes back to the failure of the front office to add better pitching in the 2012-2013 off-season.


This. He is the embodiment of that failure.

#12 diehardtwinsfan

diehardtwinsfan

    Twins Moderator

  • Twins Mods
  • 5,496 posts

Posted 12 July 2014 - 06:31 PM

I did a mid-year study on the 2012 free agents, and it turned into an 18+ page thread that closed due to a lot of arguing. The end result, if I remember correctly, was that Correia was actually one of the better 2012 gets that we had a shot at, and most of that pitching class ended up having some pretty bad seasons. I'm not sure if the KC pickup was a 'cheaping out' type deal or if the FO simply thought that this was the best option. I do think that most of us were pretty down on what we ended up with, but it's quite possible that we'd have one or two really bad contracts at this stage of the game had they done what everyone on this board (myself included) wanted.

That said, I do agree that much of the KC hatred is probably a bit misdirected. That said, he's pitching pretty well right now, so I hope that means he can turn and net us a decent prospect later this month.

#13 DocBauer

DocBauer

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 1,084 posts

Posted 12 July 2014 - 07:39 PM

There is certainly nothing special about KC. And that's where the angst comes in. As stated, the Twins needed SP solutions, and Correia was seen as filler, not someone to help lead a staff.

Honestly, if you look at how well he pitched once the season got under way, you could say the same things about Pelfrey. For the bulk of last season, both actually pitched quite solid for a losing team.

Its also timing, to a degree. Everyone wanted more than them, and the Twins needed more. Now, with Hughes and Gibson, and let's say a soon-to-be healthy Nolasco, a signing of KC, or Pelfrey for that matter, would also be met with discouragement, even if they were unto themselves very positive 4-5 starters with the likes of May and Meyer in the immediate wings.

"Nice catch Hayes...don't ever f*****g do it again."

 

--Lou Brown


#14 stringer bell

stringer bell

    Front office apologist

  • Twins News Team
  • 4,953 posts
  • LocationZumbrota MN

Posted 12 July 2014 - 08:02 PM

The reason Kevin Correia is the Rodney Dangerfield of the Twins Daily forum is that many of the "experts" on here predicted he would fail spectacularly. Since that hasn't happened, they jump on the bad starts and for the most part ignore the good ones. I get the feeling that quite a few around here would love to see him fail, even if it meant the Twins losing, just so they could be proven "right".

I don't think that is fair. Correia is the prototypical back-of-the-rotation starter. He has a very limited upside and he doesn't really have a plus pitch. He has an extremely small margin for error, so he doesn't have to be off by much to be hit really hard. I think most TD posters didn't hate Correia as much as they hated hearing JR say "he was a pretty darn good pitcher" or something to that effect.

That said, he has had a long career and made a great living with pretty ordinary talent. I respect what he has accomplished, but a game pitched by Kevin Correia excites me none at all.

#15 drjim

drjim

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 2,546 posts
  • LocationSt. Paul

Posted 12 July 2014 - 08:13 PM

I did a mid-year study on the 2012 free agents, and it turned into an 18+ page thread that closed due to a lot of arguing. The end result, if I remember correctly, was that Correia was actually one of the better 2012 gets that we had a shot at, and most of that pitching class ended up having some pretty bad seasons. I'm not sure if the KC pickup was a 'cheaping out' type deal or if the FO simply thought that this was the best option. I do think that most of us were pretty down on what we ended up with, but it's quite possible that we'd have one or two really bad contracts at this stage of the game had they done what everyone on this board (myself included) wanted.

That said, I do agree that much of the KC hatred is probably a bit misdirected. That said, he's pitching pretty well right now, so I hope that means he can turn and net us a decent prospect later this month.


The 2012 free agency class was historically awful while the Twins also desperately needed pitching. Terrible combination. My argument has always been that people wanted the Twins to sign a caliber of pitcher that didn't exist that offseason and Correia hate is the projection of that.

EDIT: I should add that Correia has done pretty much exactly what the Twins expected when he signed. He took the ball every five days, ate some innings, and bought some time for depth to be developed behind him. As a bonus, they might even be able to flip him for a prospect in the next couple of weeks.

He certainly wasn't sexy, but ended up being just mediocre enough not to be a disaster that everyone thought (hoped?) he would be.

Edited by drjim, 12 July 2014 - 08:18 PM.

Papers...business papers.

#16 Thor

Thor

    Member

  • Members
  • 44 posts

Posted 12 July 2014 - 10:14 PM

deadline deals are usually made to help a playoff team. If you think you have a 5% chance at the playoffs do you really think you are going to give anything up for KC?

Everyone needs to remember this isn't the local poker game. There are only 30 GM's in the game and they are all paid very well for knowing baseball. We ain't trying to scam some Joe on the street with a used car we have to scam a guy making a couple-few million with his job on the line.

I would love to see KC traded but I damn sure wouldn't want to be a fan of the team that pulled off the deal to get him, especially if there is any chance of being in the race.

#17 diehardtwinsfan

diehardtwinsfan

    Twins Moderator

  • Twins Mods
  • 5,496 posts

Posted 12 July 2014 - 10:43 PM

deadline deals are usually made to help a playoff team. If you think you have a 5% chance at the playoffs do you really think you are going to give anything up for KC?

Everyone needs to remember this isn't the local poker game. There are only 30 GM's in the game and they are all paid very well for knowing baseball. We ain't trying to scam some Joe on the street with a used car we have to scam a guy making a couple-few million with his job on the line.

I would love to see KC traded but I damn sure wouldn't want to be a fan of the team that pulled off the deal to get him, especially if there is any chance of being in the race.


I think that depends on who he's replacing. The reality is that there isn't a whole lot of good pitching on the market right now... and look what the Cubs got from Oakland...

What I can say is this. If every 5 days you are trotting out the Andrew Albers of the world b/c you don't have much better, KC is looking like a godsend, and you won't need to give up an Addison Russel to get him.

#18 Shane Wahl

Shane Wahl

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 4,494 posts

Posted 12 July 2014 - 11:59 PM

Truly, truly excited for Correia to be making his trade-bait case.

#19 Willihammer

Willihammer

    ice cream correspondent

  • Members
  • 3,697 posts
  • LocationSaint Paul

Posted 13 July 2014 - 01:43 AM

Yeah he ain't Greg Maddux. But he make an MLB paltry 5 mil a season, and is capable of a quality start.


Correia is capable of throwing strikes, but I don't believe he's capable of dictating the results when those pitches are inevitably put in play.

Take today for example. Correia had one strikeout to 8 flyouts. I can think of at least three that had to have been driven 380+ feet. But no home runs. Meanwhile a fifth of his groundouts were turned for a double play. His xFIP for the day? 6.42. So, Correia had a quality start today because Correia got lucky today. He wasn't any more skilful than his April and May starts when he got lit up.

That is the crux of my revulsion with the PTC love affair that the Correia signing embodies - every start is a gamble. The Twins were just hoping to get lucky.

#20 h2oface

h2oface

    Lifelong since '61

  • Members
  • 676 posts
  • LocationTralfamadore

Posted 13 July 2014 - 03:05 AM

if anyone deserves the business it is Nolasco.


I think they have both deserved the business when they have received it.