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Sinker: Pirates find Worley's mechanical flaw

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#1 Seth Stohs

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 08:07 AM

http://www.startribu.../266033721.html

Howard Sinker found an article in the Philadelphia Daily News in which Vance Worley talked about a mechanical flaw that the Pirates coaches saw that the Twins coaches didn't.

The pitching coached thought he was pitching like he was still hurt.

#2 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 08:09 AM

When Worley was traded, I said something along the lines of "if Vance comes back with the Pirates, Anderson needs to be fired."

I've followed the Twins for a long time. This may be the most damning evidence of coaching incompetence that I've seen during that time.

Unbelievable.

With Liriano, you could make the argument "that's just Francisco being Francisco" and sure enough, he imploded again in 2014. He's just an enigma; I can't blame or praise any coaching staff for how that guy performs.

But missing a mechanical issue with a pitcher who went from promising to garbage almost overnight? Unacceptable. Completely unacceptable.

#3 mike wants wins

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 08:10 AM

Awesome for him. I was a believer when they traded for him, but I trusted the Twins' coaches did what they could for him, and he was bad. Guess I was wrong. I remain convinced this is not the FO or staff to win with.
Lighten up Francis....

#4 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 08:17 AM

What are the odds that Terry Ryan is seeing red right now? I can't believe he would shrug off something this obviously flawed in the Twins organization.

Despite his faults, he's not afraid to shoulder blame or hold people accountable and holy moly, if Worley turns back into a decent #3 pitcher, there should be a slew of people who are held accountable for not doing their bloody jobs.

#5 mike wants wins

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 08:20 AM

Come on, there is no accoutability here. The entirety of the actual coaches still have jobs, after three straight 90 loss seasons, and the chances of a fourth pretty decent. I just don't agree that there is a culture of accountability at all. YMMV.
Lighten up Francis....

#6 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 08:23 AM

Come on, there is no accoutability here. The entirety of the actual coaches still have jobs, after three straight 90 loss seasons, and the chances of a fourth pretty decent. I just don't agree that there is a culture of accountability at all. YMMV.


Ryan has openly said that the past two seasons are his fault, not Gardenhire's fault.

You may disagree with the assessment but that's accountability. He admitted that he didn't give his coach enough good players to succeed.

It's hard to blame Gardenhire for the past three seasons. He simply hasn't had good players to play every day. On the other hand, the pitching staff has underperformed badly the past three seasons (some of it was talent, some of it was underperformance), which *should* put Anderson on very thin ice.

For the record, I'm not much of a Gardenhire fan. I don't hate the guy or anything, I just think he's a middling coach that does some things right, other things wrong.

#7 mike wants wins

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 08:26 AM

Talk, imo, is cheap, Brock. Is his pay cut? Are his responsbilities decreased? Does he have a deadling to actually put good players on the field?

Look at the FA pitchers this FO has signed over the last 5 years or so, and ask yourself if you think they know what they are doing.
Lighten up Francis....

#8 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 08:29 AM

Talk, imo, is cheap, Brock. Is his pay cut? Are his responsbilities decreased? Does he have a deadling to actually put good players on the field?

Look at the FA pitchers this FO has signed over the last 5 years or so, and ask yourself if you think they know what they are doing.


Do you routinely cut your employees' pay or demote them willy-nilly when they screw up but own the mistake?

Sometimes talk is all you can do after a mistake because the fix takes months, if not years, to implement.

#9 nicksaviking

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 08:29 AM

"Everything's there," Worley told the Daily News. "It was just this vs. that. I'm just glad that they believed in me and knew who I was and what I was capable of."
-Vance Worley (while mooning the Twins)

#10 drivlikejehu

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 08:30 AM

Come on, there is no accoutability here. The entirety of the actual coaches still have jobs, after three straight 90 loss seasons, and the chances of a fourth pretty decent. I just don't agree that there is a culture of accountability at all. YMMV.


Yeah, I think it's pretty clear that accountability is not present in the organization. The only real exception is that ownership/corporate management liked Ryan better than Smith and made a change (back to the future), but the front office itself remained basically the same, just as the field staff has basically remained the same despite a bit of tweaking.

The Twins have had trouble acquiring enough talent and getting results from the talent they do have... the problems start at the top.

#11 diehardtwinsfan

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 08:30 AM

I think Anderson is to Gardy as Such was to Kelly. Not sure what the results will be. I could see this being an Ulger situation where Anderson is still retained in a different capacity and a new pitching coach is brought in. That's not a bad option if Anderson is retained in a way that maximizes his strengths...

That said, gotta echo Brock here. If a pitching coach cannot spot a mechanical flaw, he needs to be replaced.

#12 mike wants wins

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 08:31 AM

After four years of mistakes? I don't know what I'd do.....but then, I've never thought Ryan was good at the MLB stuff, but is good at the minor league stuff.....

I don't routinely have guys that don't improve their outcomes for four years (look at the FA signings, which is one of the things the GM is accountable for, he is not accountable for the draft). Bartlett and Kubel and Pelfrey for two years?
Lighten up Francis....

#13 nicksaviking

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 08:36 AM

Ryan has openly said that the past two seasons are his fault, not Gardenhire's fault.


I agree that it was Ryan's fault more so than the coaches. Still that's a pretty easy thing to say if your goal is to keep the on-field staff. It's basically the growing annoyance that is the "My bad" statement. I don't much care who's mistake it is, it needs to be fixed or the hammer will fall on all. If Ryan thinks that he himself is the problem, well, the solution is pretty clear. It's great that he recognized his fault but it means little if there are no consequences.

That being said, there clearly was a more concerted effort to improve the club through free agency this off season. Though some of it was misguided, I recognized the attempt, which was a welcome departure from character.

#14 Hosken Bombo Disco

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 08:36 AM

Little too early for Worley to be calling this a happy ending, but yeah he's got to be feeling better about himself at the moment.

#15 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 08:37 AM

After four years of mistakes? I don't know what I'd do.....but then, I've never thought Ryan was good at the MLB stuff, but is good at the minor league stuff.....

I don't routinely have guys that don't improve their outcomes for four years (look at the FA signings, which is one of the things the GM is accountable for, he is not accountable for the draft). Bartlett and Kubel and Pelfrey for two years?


I'm not sure how long some of you think it takes to rebuild a franchise. The Twins are in year three of Ryan returning to the club.

Theo Epstein signed with the Cubs within a month of Ryan's return.

Theo's record with the Cubs: 165-245

Ryan's record with the Twins: 171-240

If Terry Ryan should be fired, Theo Epstein should be super-duper double fired.

Or maybe it just takes time to rebuild a franchise when you're doing it through the farm and draft.

#16 big dog

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 08:39 AM

Happy for Worley but I have to say he sounds like a head case. He has no responsibility for working on his own problems while a Twin? Oh, wait, it was the wind.

I'm not a fan of Anderson by any means, but I'm not buying any stock in Worley yet.

#17 jorgenswest

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 08:40 AM

The Twins can't afford to miss on any pitcher. Good luck Vance. I don't think you are the only one that the Twins management stopped believing in too soon.

Why believe in a 26 year old with previous major league success when there are scores of 30 year olds that go about their business the Twin way?

#18 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 08:40 AM

I agree that it was Ryan's fault more so than the coaches. Still that's a pretty easy thing to say if your goal is to keep the on-field staff. It's basically the growing annoyance that is the "My bad" statement. I don't much care who's mistake it is, it needs to be fixed or the hammer will fall on all. If Ryan thinks that he himself is the problem, well, the solution is pretty clear. It's great that he recognized his fault but it means little if there are no consequences.

That being said, there clearly was a more concerted effort to improve the club through free agency this off season. Though some of it was misguided, I recognized the attempt, which was a welcome departure from character.


To me, it looked like an attempt to cover for your coaches, which good managers do when they feel they're the one who screwed up. I'm fine with that.

More importantly, Ryan went out and got Gardenhire and Anderson some pretty good players to help round out a club that had Joe Mauer and an emerging Brian Dozier. He then went out and picked up Morales to help mid-season.

That... Hasn't gone well. And after getting a somewhat competent core of players for Gardy to field, the results haven't followed.

And that means Gardy should be on the hot seat and Anderson should probably be handed his walking papers. I'm fine with giving guys one last chance and Ryan did that. Now it's time to start thinking about moving on.

#19 mike wants wins

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 08:41 AM

How long should I wait? When I asked that question last year, people said 2014/5. I'd bet those same people would now say 2016 before you can judge his work. How long should we wait?

Should we just accept the awful job of adding players in FA over the last few years? Should we accept they had NO PLAN for CF this year if Hicks didn't work? Should we accept that during a rebuild they use veteran RP with no options left, rather than young players?

How and when should Ryan be held accountable for the success or failure of this team?

btw, I'm ok with people saying be patient, but there has to be a timeline for goals, or they are not goals.
Lighten up Francis....

#20 jorgenswest

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 08:43 AM

I think you will need to wait a few years after they start to rebuild (roster young players and dump the decline phase). I am still waiting for them rebuild.

#21 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 08:45 AM

How long should I wait? When I asked that question last year, people said 2014/5. I'd bet those same people would now say 2016 before you can judge his work. How long should we wait?

Should we just accept the awful job of adding players in FA over the last few years? Should we accept they had NO PLAN for CF this year if Hicks didn't work? Should we accept that during a rebuild they use veteran RP with no options left, rather than young players?

How and when should Ryan be held accountable for the success or failure of this team?

btw, I'm ok with people saying be patient, but there has to be a timeline for goals, or they are not goals.


It's hard to have goals when your best two prospects, both likely to see MLB at some point in 2014, go down with injuries early in the season.

Goals can't be fixed in place, particularly when there are a multitude of variables that are completely out of your control. There is absolutely nothing a team can do when the #1 prospect in baseball goes down for half the season and the #4-6 prospect goes down for the entire season.

That's just **** luck.

#22 Kirby_waved_at_me

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 08:46 AM

So, bascially what I'm reading here is that Worley has no control over his own mechanics and only watches video if it's shown to him. He stunk last year, and it's everyone's fault but his own.
I would like to hear the Twins side of the story. I wouldn't be surprised if getting demoted (twice, to the bullpen, then AAA) and essentially traded for nothing gave him the kick needed to start listening to his coaches a little more closely.
Maybe it's all true and the Twins coaches didn't look at any video of Worley before his injury. Or they did look at it but couldn't see that there was a difference? Seems pretty hard to believe.

#23 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 08:48 AM

So, bascially what I'm reading here is that Worley has no control over his own mechanics and only watches video if it's shown to him. He stunk last year, and it's everyone's fault but his own.


Professional athletes often aren't the brightest of bulbs. Problems like this are why coaching staffs exist in the first place.

That doesn't absolve Worley of all responsibility; after all, it's his career... But some, probably most, of the blame should be laid at the Twins' pitching coaches, both MLB and AAA.

#24 mike wants wins

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 08:55 AM

It's hard to have goals when your best two prospects, both likely to see MLB at some point in 2014, go down with injuries early in the season.

Goals can't be fixed in place, particularly when there are a multitude of variables that are completely out of your control. There is absolutely nothing a team can do when the #1 prospect in baseball goes down for half the season and the #4-6 prospect goes down for the entire season.

That's just **** luck.



and all the other stuff I mentioned? So, you are in the 2016 camp. I have to wait two more years before I can judge him? And if one or two guys get hurt between now and then, does he get two more years?

At some point, you have to have contingency plans (see CF for two years running now).

Anderson has his job precisely because this team is about a good old boys club, where almost no one is brought in from the outside to offer a fresh voice. I would imagine group think is rampant in that FO.
Lighten up Francis....

#25 Kirby_waved_at_me

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 09:11 AM

Professional athletes often aren't the brightest of bulbs. Problems like this are why coaching staffs exist in the first place.

That doesn't absolve Worley of all responsibility; after all, it's his career... But some, probably most, of the blame should be laid at the Twins' pitching coaches, both MLB and AAA.


Nah. I blame Worley.

http://www.twincitie...y-hopes-less-is
"For me, the offseason is a chance for me to actually get back on a normal eating schedule," he said. "During the season, I just get fat. There's nothing I can do."
- Worley.

http://www.twincitie...as-tuned-up-now
"It was my mechanics," Worley said. "Things have gone well over there in the bullpen; now it's just a matter of getting it to transfer over to the game."
- Worley. 4/19/2013

Apparently Worley did work on his mechanics in 2013, at the request of Anderson, and he still stunk.
They looked at how he pitched in Philly, tried to get him to go back to that, and he didn't deliver.
He lost weight after being traded in 2012, but it wasn't enough. He lost more weight this off season, and he's finally starting to come around. Maybe the Twins weren't patient enough with him, but I don't think that he was making much of a good impression on the coaches or the front office here. He wore out his welcome pretty quickly.

I don't mean to be a defender of the Twins' coaching staff, but I think using Worley's word is not a fair assessment.

#26 nicksaviking

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 09:24 AM

I don't mean to be a defender of the Twins' coaching staff, but I think using Worley's word is not a fair assessment.


Is it that you don't think the mechanical adjustment to the flaw is the cause of his success or that you don't think it was the Twins coaching staff's responsibility to identify the flaw?

#27 Kirby_waved_at_me

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 09:28 AM

I think they did identify the flaw in April of 2013, and he didn't make the adjustment.

Now that he's having some modest success, he's conveniently throwing everyone else under the bus for missing his greatness.

#28 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 09:30 AM

Nah. I blame Worley.

http://www.twincitie...y-hopes-less-is
"For me, the offseason is a chance for me to actually get back on a normal eating schedule," he said. "During the season, I just get fat. There's nothing I can do."
- Worley.

http://www.twincitie...as-tuned-up-now
"It was my mechanics," Worley said. "Things have gone well over there in the bullpen; now it's just a matter of getting it to transfer over to the game."
- Worley. 4/19/2013

Apparently Worley did work on his mechanics in 2013, at the request of Anderson, and he still stunk.
They looked at how he pitched in Philly, tried to get him to go back to that, and he didn't deliver.
He lost weight after being traded in 2012, but it wasn't enough. He lost more weight this off season, and he's finally starting to come around. Maybe the Twins weren't patient enough with him, but I don't think that he was making much of a good impression on the coaches or the front office here. He wore out his welcome pretty quickly.

I don't mean to be a defender of the Twins' coaching staff, but I think using Worley's word is not a fair assessment.


Fair enough. Good catch that the Twins also tried tweaking his mechanics.

#29 Badsmerf

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 09:31 AM

I'm with you all. Blame should be put on the coaching staff, but at the same time Worley is a chump. Anyone who blames the wind for sucking doesn't deserve any respect from me. This guy finds any excuse other than himself. I'm no Anderson fan either. His philosophy and results have been terrible. At some point you have to change directions.

#30 Physics Guy

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 09:31 AM

I know this isn't about Worley, but I think it is pertinent to the thread. What about Nolasco? I know we aren't talking about ace material, but how can he stink so bad? Is Anderson looking at film to discern changes from last year? If there are noticeable changes, are they working to correct them? They have invested too much money in him to not get him straightened out. I've felt that Gardy and Anderson were pretty good at their jobs, but unless we start to see some improvement from the team, maybe it's time for a change in scenery. I'm having a hard time remembering the last pitcher the Twins brought in that actually showed marked improvement with the Twins.