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Twins' Trade Bait and Why the Twins Should Sell

josmil pinto kendrys morales kurt suzuki minnesota twins phil hughes
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#101 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 01:59 PM

The pitching has been rolling very well, but Boston's offense isn't a high measuring stick. They're 8th worst in RS this season. We also happened to catch Toronto during a particularly good time.

So we need to see it keep going, but I wouldn't draw any huge conclusions from this road trip.


Absolutely, but it's impressive to hold any MLB offense to 5 (?) runs over three games.

Well, maybe not 2003 Detroit but you get my point.

#102 DaveW

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 02:04 PM

Absolutely, but it's impressive to hold any MLB offense to 5 (?) runs over three games.

Well, maybe not 2003 Detroit but you get my point.

They are the world champs, and have plenty of nice bats in the lineup: Ortiz, Napoli, Holt, Boegarts, Pedroia, A.J., Victorino (injured)

Not the 27 Yankees, but a solid lineup, no doubt.

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#103 Willihammer

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 02:09 PM

Who can the Twins acquire? Any catchers or center fielders on the trading block?

#104 The Wise One

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 02:12 PM

Show me. I can't find that. I find a little of that when they start talking the offseason after 2012, but NOTHING about that at the July deadline that year. Everything I read says there were suitors lined up for him but the Twins demands basically scared people away out of their ridiculousness or flat-out refusal to talk about him.

I keep producing evidence, it'd be swell if some of you would start to suggest some counter-evidence you claim exists.


That is not evidence of a Willingham trade. It might be considered evidence of why teams were unwilling to give up much for Willingham as they cited his injury history.

#105 jokin

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 02:19 PM

That is not evidence of a Willingham trade. It might be considered evidence of why teams were unwilling to give up much for Willingham as they cited his injury history.


What are you talking about? There was a line-up of articles of teams actively expressing interest in exploring the idea of a Willingham acquisition. And I believe he asked for counter-evidence.....tick, tick, tick.....

#106 DaveW

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 02:23 PM

Who can the Twins acquire? Any catchers or center fielders on the trading block?


I think one way or another if the Twins are still in it come the trade deadline, then Pinto is going to be back up regardless as the back up C. (unless he totally starts flaming out in AAA)

As far as CF: Jon Jay is on the block apparently but the asking price is very high, best bet is to hope Hicks can come back and be adequate.

 "1 out of 17 ain't bad"


#107 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 02:40 PM

The reason for this, in my opinion, comes down to risk. There was risk priced into that contract to begin with. If Hammer had a history of health instead of his history, there's no way he signs a 3/21M deal. It's much bigger. 3 months into it, that risk hasn't been mitigated. GMs know they are picking up a guy with 2 1/2 years left on the contract, and odds are good he's going to get hurt... and guess what, he did. That risk is largely mitigated this offseason. He doesn't have to go another year, he has to go a few more months. Teams will pay for that if he's an impact bat, which right now, he is. They'll pay... not a superstar prospect, but something with more upside than what we'd have gotten in 2012. My guess is that it would be a Trevor May type guy (not 2014 Trevor, but December 2012 Trevor).

I know my position in 2012 was not to trade him if the results are underwhelming. What they were offered, we'll never know, but I highly doubt there was a ton on the table for him.


Agreed. Willingham was a big risk in 2012, still having ~17m owed to him. I doubt the return offered was anything of enormous value, or Ryan probably would have taken that deal. After all, he didn't hesitate to trade two (!) centerfielders just a few months later.

And despite Ryan's sometimes apparent faults, I prefer a GM who sits on a player for two long, asking for a good return over a GM who hands away talent like it's no big deal (eg. a certain GM that succeeded Ryan for a few years).

In the end, we'll never know what was offered for Willingham so it's really a moot point. Giving him away for the equivalent of what can be had for him in the next six weeks wouldn't have thrilled the fanbase, just as sitting on him and watching him struggle through 2013 didn't thrill the fanbase.

#108 GoGonzoJournal

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 04:46 PM

I am sooo tired of hearing how the Twins should have traded Willingham after his career in 2012. Who was clamoring then to trade our best HR RBI threat when that season ended? Nobody I'd say. 20-20 backwards vision is always a great thing. Now? If he keeps producing he might bring something to a team making a move. I'm not opposed. But he's just going to bring back a top prospect at this point. Is he more valuable to us this season or an A prospect. Heck, he might even be an option for us next season on a 1 year deal.


Willingham on a one-year deal will NOT happen! He'll be 36 and be even more useless in LF. We have DHs coming out of our ass. That 3-year deal was one of the most team-friendly contracts ever for a guy with 35 HR and 110 RBI...on a team that lost 96 games and wasn't going to compete that year or the next. Hindsight is 20/20, but when a man outplays his career averages like that you can't say NOBODY was thinking about trading him. I certainly was and Terry Ryan probably was too. Bill Smith even had to. He should have been moved in 2012.

#109 Thrylos

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 05:09 PM

Trade Suzuki? Who will play catcher? Pinto is barely adequate as a backup catcher. .


Based on? What Perkins said when he threw him under the bus regarding pitch framing? If you read Mike Berardino's article, you'd see that when MB gave the real numbers, Suzuki was worse that Pinto in that respect. Sucks when people like Perkins open their mouths up and spew stuff that a. do not understand and b. do not even bother to check facts before they spew them, especially as far as teammates go.

Pinto is at least as good as Suzuki with the glove and better with the bat.
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#110 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 05:29 PM

Based on? What Perkins said when he threw him under the bus regarding pitch framing? If you read Mike Berardino's article, you'd see that when MB gave the real numbers, Suzuki was worse that Pinto in that respect. Sucks when people like Perkins open their mouths up and spew stuff that a. do not understand and b. do not even bother to check facts before they spew them, especially as far as teammates go.

Pinto is at least as good as Suzuki with the glove and better with the bat.


Uh... Per game, Suzuki is a better framer. Not good but he's better than Pinto.

http://www.statcorne...tcherReport.php

#111 The Wise One

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 05:39 PM

Based on? What Perkins said when he threw him under the bus regarding pitch framing? If you read Mike Berardino's article, you'd see that when MB gave the real numbers, Suzuki was worse that Pinto in that respect. Sucks when people like Perkins open their mouths up and spew stuff that a. do not understand and b. do not even bother to check facts before they spew them, especially as far as teammates go.

Pinto is at least as good as Suzuki with the glove and better with the bat.


On the radio show wasn't the conversation about Pinto. Did anybody ask Perkins what he thought of Suzuki. Can't find it anywhere. By the numbers Pinto needs to work on his pitch framing. Perkins is not wrong about that. That Pinto is less bad than Suzuki wasn't part of any question. So what is Perkins spewing about that was factually incorrect about Pinto? Nothing. Now if your complaint was that he didn't throw Suzuki under the bus, too I could understand. But your a/b analysis looks real bad, like you have yet another axe to grind about somebody.

#112 jorgenswest

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 05:48 PM

Suzuki is a better catcher today. In terms of framing and throwing he has been below average for years. That isn't going to change.

Pinto did better last September in his call up when he was getting more consistent play and the numbers weren't anchored down with the bias of catching primarily Deduno.

In any case, Suzuki isn't a good solution for 2015. We need to know if Pinto can be a solution. Assuming the a Twins are not within a few games of the wild card, he needs to catch 6 games a week starting August 1.

#113 jorgenswest

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 05:57 PM

On the radio show wasn't the conversation about Pinto. Did anybody ask Perkins what he thought of Suzuki. Can't find it anywhere. By the numbers Pinto needs to work on his pitch framing. Perkins is not wrong about that. That Pinto is less bad than Suzuki wasn't part of any question. So what is Perkins spewing about that was factually incorrect about Pinto? Nothing. Now if your complaint was that he didn't throw Suzuki under the bus, too I could understand. But your a/b analysis looks real bad, like you have yet another axe to grind about somebody.


I don't see how the organization, Pinto or Perkins are better off with his comments. Perkins has some repair to do in that relationship. I hope he has started that repair and it takes place in house.

In any case, Pinto is not the problem. He was signed by the Twins at 16 years old. He had 8 seasons of training in the minor leagues. Framing pitches is a skill that can be taught if it is a priority to the organization.

#114 JB_Iowa

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 06:01 PM

I believe you can listen to the Perkins interview here:
http://www.1500espn.com/ondemand/judd


Monday, June 16, 2014 Hour 3 (bottom of the page) or download from iTunes

#115 TheLeviathan

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 06:22 PM

I know my position in 2012 was not to trade him if the results are underwhelming. What they were offered, we'll never know, but I highly doubt there was a ton on the table for him.


That's just it, by all accounts the Twins scared away suitors with their demands. Brock suggests he'd rather have someone who doesn't give away players....as if we must have one or the other.

Just because you don't hand players out for crappy value, doesn't justify ridiculous demands either. In both respects you artificially suppress the market for your own player by your own approach. If teams are coming to you and your demands for the player are set so high it's described as laughable.....then you've gone too far to the other extreme.

#116 The Wise One

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 06:58 PM

I believe you can listen to the Perkins interview here:
http://www.1500espn.com/ondemand/judd


Monday, June 16, 2014 Hour 3 (bottom of the page) or download from iTunes


Should have made it clearer that there was no print version available.

#117 The Wise One

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 07:02 PM

I don't see how the organization, Pinto or Perkins are better off with his comments. Perkins has some repair to do in that relationship. I hope he has started that repair and it takes place in house.

In any case, Pinto is not the problem. He was signed by the Twins at 16 years old. He had 8 seasons of training in the minor leagues. Framing pitches is a skill that can be taught if it is a priority to the organization.


Perkins undoubted told Pinto several times when Perkins lost strikes what Pinto has to do better. Pinto would have known what he needs to do long before Perkins was on the air. What is the harm in truth?

Can you find any data that would say that pitch framing occurs regardless of what the game situation is?

Edited by The Wise One, 19 June 2014 - 07:37 PM.


#118 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 07:15 PM

That's just it, by all accounts the Twins scared away suitors with their demands. Brock suggests he'd rather have someone who doesn't give away players....as if we must have one or the other.


I made it pretty clear that I wasn't defending Ryan for not trading Willingham because - again - we do not know what was offered for him.

If the return was crap, it was the right move. If he turned down a solid prospect, it was the wrong move.

We simply do not know.

What we do know is that Ryan, when offered value for two centerfielders just a few months later, did not hesitate to trade them both and leave a hole at the position.

#119 Thrylos

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 07:17 PM

I believe you can listen to the Perkins interview here:
http://www.1500espn.com/ondemand/judd


Monday, June 16, 2014 Hour 3 (bottom of the page) or download from iTunes


Thanks! Good stuff. Starts a bit after the half point.

Here is something else that Berardino did not pick up:

This is what Perkins said about Pinto:

"He is young, he came up the minor leagues fast"


Fact: Pinto came up as a 24 year old last season, after 8 minor league seasons
Fact: Perkins himself came up as a 23 year old, after 3 minor league seasons (and we all remember that he sucked pretty much for 2-3 season)

Another fact checking that should had happened before opening mouth and throwing a teammate under the bus, but did not happen.

And do you know what the ultra ironic kicker is?

Perkins is the Twins' Players' Union rep.
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#120 Thrylos

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 07:23 PM

What is the harm in truth?


Perkins' "facts" were not facts. That's part of the problem here.

Biggest part of the problem? Here. Play this scenario:

You are working a job that is unionized. And you are the Union rep for your plant/unit/whatever. The management took action against one of your union colleagues and they demoted him. You then go to the radio and say publicly in so many words that "he sucks".

How well would that play with your coworkers who voted you as their representative?

Just sayin'
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