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Wait, we have a GREAT bullpen?

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#1 Trautmann13

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Posted 14 June 2014 - 05:42 PM

All we have heard for a few years now is how great the bullpen has been. People sighted the bullpen as the main reason this team has yet to loose 100 games in their resent struggles. Where I can see that in past years, is it just me or is this bullpen not been very good. Perk, Duensing, and Fien have all been good to very good this year; but almost everyone else has been at best up and down. Swarzak and Burton are both having pretty bad years.

While this team is not terrible and could push their way into the playoffs this year, I feel figuring out every aspect of pitching is vitally important. Sticking with a bad rotation and potentially bad bullpen is very aggravating. Now, we clearly have a better bullpen than say Detroit (who as I write are surving up hit after hit to our boys in blue). Do I feel that they haven't been very good because the bad outings stick out more, or is there something there.

Thoughts?

#2 Thrylos

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Posted 14 June 2014 - 07:08 PM

While this team is not terrible and could push their way into the playoffs this year, I feel figuring out every aspect of pitching is vitally important. Sticking with a bad rotation and potentially bad bullpen is very aggravating. Now, we clearly have a better bullpen than say Detroit (who as I write are surving up hit after hit to our boys in blue). Do I feel that they haven't been very good because the bad outings stick out more, or is there something there.

Thoughts?


As far as this goes: I have never seen so much fan enthusiasm (and forgiveness for the doers) when their team went from terrible (99+96+96) to bad this season.

Well... as far as pitching goes:

Alex Meyer and Trevor May are way ahead of Kevin Correia and Sam Deduno at this point.

and

Kris Johnson, AJ Achter, Yohan Pino are way better than Caleb Thielbar, Jarred Burton and Matty Guerrier at this point.

Burdi when signed will be way better than every reliever in this organization.

There are options in the organization.

Edited by ashburyjohn, 14 June 2014 - 08:55 PM.
removed insult of front office personnel's character

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#3 ScottyB

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Posted 14 June 2014 - 07:13 PM

Thry - You can throw Duensing and Swarzak into your list as well. Personally, I'd take Theilbar over Duensing.

#4 Thrylos

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Posted 14 June 2014 - 07:16 PM

Personally, I'd take Theilbar over Duensing.


Did you watch the game today?
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#5 Hosken Bombo Disco

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Posted 14 June 2014 - 07:21 PM

The first move I think you'll see is Deduno moving back to the pen. But really he needs to be the mop up guy who gives you from 3 to 5 innings in games like today. Maybe that means he pitches once every 7 days. Too mistake prone to be used as a late-inning situational guy, though. But yeah there's nothing preventing the team from making multiple moves all at once, either. There are questions about a lot of guys.

#6 Sconnie

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Posted 14 June 2014 - 07:54 PM

The first move I think you'll see is Deduno moving back to the pen. But really he needs to be the mop up guy who gives you from 3 to 5 innings in games like today. Maybe that means he pitches once every 7 days. Too mistake prone to be used as a late-inning situational guy, though. But yeah there's nothing preventing the team from making multiple moves all at once, either. There are questions about a lot of guys.

If they're serious about the "why not us, why not now" mentality, they aren't good enough to have days like today. It's been almost every 4th and 5th rotation spot this season when they have to dig a little deeper in the BP. TR and RA have to make moves, you can't make a push with a guaranteed loss on 2/5 of your games.

#7 DJSim22

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Posted 14 June 2014 - 08:05 PM

As far as this goes: I have never seen so much fan enthusiasm (and forgiveness for the doers) when their team went from terrible (99+96+96) to bad this season.

Well... as far as pitching goes:

Alex Meyer and Trevor May are way ahead of Kevin Correia and Sam Deduno at this point.

and

Kris Johnson, AJ Achter, Yohan Pino are way better than Caleb Thielbar, Jarred Burton and Matty Guerrier at this point.

Burdi when signed will be way better than every reliever in this organization.


Based on what? I have a feeling if you sent down Thielbar and Guerrier and replaced them with Achter and Pino you would be saying the opposite. I don't see how you can judge apples to oranges.

#8 Beezer07

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Posted 14 June 2014 - 08:23 PM

Did you watch the game today?


I always find this sort of question hilarious in the sports world context, but ESPECIALLY in the context of major league baseball. What happened in today's game should have next to zero bearing on the evaluation and decisionmaking of the people who matter.

#9 Trautmann13

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Posted 14 June 2014 - 08:40 PM

If they're serious about the "why not us, why not now" mentality, they aren't good enough to have days like today. It's been almost every 4th and 5th rotation spot this season when they have to dig a little deeper in the BP. TR and RA have to make moves, you can't make a push with a guaranteed loss on 2/5 of your games.


I agree completely with you, Sconnie. I don't know if the FO is really about this "why not us" thing or if it all for show. If they are, changes need to happen quickly; like this time next week.

Things like at least one new face in the rotation and maybe 2 or more in the bullpen. As we have seen, this lineup can produce. You just can't realistically win a game where your pitching staff gives up 12 runs.

#10 Rosterman

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Posted 14 June 2014 - 08:49 PM

Duensing has value right now. I would trade him for a decent chip. Wish could say the same for Swarzak, who had his best value ever this offseason. Burton just needs to be sent away. Guerrier will be Bartlett or Kubel, someone you give a chance to in September, but no business being on the roster. Deduno should be sent to the minors. He should be able to get thru and open up a 40-man spot. He IS NOT in the future plans, sorry.

Thielbar is competent. The Twins could always call up Darnell or AAron Thompson. They have a host of others pitchers in the minors, too -- Oliveros anyone?

The Twins did what we wanted, signed three free agent pitchers and then we all prayed that Correia would be an innings eater and produce enough to warrent a mid-season trade. So much money tied up in the rotation and many of us could be seen as clamoring "why" did we do this when you had prospects...was it that important ti field a .500 club this year, even though with the way the division looks, it could be 1987 all over again!
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#11 kab21

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Posted 14 June 2014 - 09:54 PM

Swarzak didn't have trade value over the offseason for the same reason that Duensing doesn't have trade value now. RP's with below avg K rates are not valuable trade chips. The best you can hope for is an A ball player that profiles as a utility player or RP'er.

#12 pierre75275

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 05:46 AM

Aaron Thompson has opted out of his contract and isnt with the organization any longer. Deduno is out of options and its highly doubtful he would be passed onby 29 other clubs

#13 diehardtwinsfan

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 06:27 AM

Duensing has value right now. I would trade him for a decent chip.


Yes, but then we can never use him as a throw in to get guys like Bogarts.

#14 old nurse

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 06:57 AM

Aaron Thompson has opted out of his contract and isnt with the organization any longer. Deduno is out of options and its highly doubtful he would be passed onby 29 other clubs

Tongue in cheek, did you watch his last game?
Starting pitching in MLB is thin, but not that thin so as to assume someone would take Deduno as a starter or a reliever because many of his numbers are below average. ERA, K rate, K/BB rate among the more glaring numbers

#15 Mr. Ed

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 07:29 AM

Aaron Thompson has opted out of his contract and isnt with the organization any longer.


He did? Who was this Aaron Thompson who pitched for Rochester last night?

[FONT=arial]The Wings outhit the IronPigs 12-5. A.J. Achter and Aaron Thompson pitched four scorless innings of relief.

[/FONT]
[FONT=arial]Maybe you're thinking about Matt Hoffman, who did that the other day.[/FONT]

#16 pierre75275

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 07:51 AM

You would be correct. I got them mixed up the same way I did as Gagne and Gaetti when was a wee lad growing up in the plains....my apologies. does this mean Oliveries will get called up? to AAA

Edited by pierre75275, 15 June 2014 - 07:54 AM.


#17 Jim H

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 08:03 AM

As far as this goes: I have never seen so much fan enthusiasm (and forgiveness for the doers) when their team went from terrible (99+96+96) to bad this season.

Well... as far as pitching goes:

Alex Meyer and Trevor May are way ahead of Kevin Correia and Sam Deduno at this point.

and

Kris Johnson, AJ Achter, Yohan Pino are way better than Caleb Thielbar, Jarred Burton and Matty Guerrier at this point.

Burdi when signed will be way better than every reliever in this organization.

There are options in the organization.


I think you are perhaps right in your first statement. It usually takes around 90 wins to be in the playoffs. It might not take that many this year, but it is going to take some improvement for this team to get 85 plus.

As far as the pitching goes, we all saw what Tonkin and Johnson looked like earlier this year in small samples. Tonkin was very inconsistent, Johnson's 1 start was painful to watch, even though he didn't give up any runs. Yet these are doing extremely well at AAA. It is best to take AAA numbers with a grain of salt, they often don't translate that well to the majors.

As far as Burdi goes, he may well be very good, but expecting him to be ready for the majors is pretty optimistic. College competition is very below A ball in terms in of quality, it can be pretty difficult to make any realistic guess how college players will perform even in the minors much less the majors.

#18 DocBauer

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 08:47 AM

I don't buy in to the "did you watch the game today" mentality, especially in regard to relief pitchers. Stat lines are so volatile for relievers where can generally be good to lights out, but a bad inning can also become greatly magnified. If we took that approach, there have been a couple games where I would have said we should dump Perkins.

On the whole, Perk is outstanding, as is Mr Fien, another in a long line of quality Twins setup men to come from seemingly nowhere. I'm in the pro Duensing camp. When given a bullpen role solely, he's generally been good and reliable, occasionally excellent. Thielbar is young, learning, somewhat inexperienced, but with good stuff, and most of the time does a solid job. He's also part of the future while generally performing that solid job in the present. I'm sticking with him. Swarzak is simply not pitching as he has done the past couple of seasons. I would dump him, but does he have any options left? If so, I'd think about some time at Rochester to get back in a groove and give Pino or someone a shot.

I was still on the Burton bandwagon last season. One poor stretch in an otherwise good year. This season is different however. I'll see a pitch, or a sequence to a batter, and I think I'm seeing the Burton of old. And then comes a hit, a walk and a double. I don't know if there's anything wrong physically there, but he just doesn't look like the same guy. I think a move might have to be made there. Along with Guerrier. I admit I haven't seen many of his performances thus far, but from what I have, heard on radio, read and seen in box scores, while his lines aren't awful, it doesn't seem like there's anything really going on there. Make sense? Once again, with the talent at AAA in Tonkin, Achter and even Pino, I'm thinking a move needs to take place at some point.

#19 DJSim22

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 02:14 PM

I always find this sort of question hilarious in the sports world context, but ESPECIALLY in the context of major league baseball. What happened in today's game should have next to zero bearing on the evaluation and decisionmaking of the people who matter.


Or I could say did you see the game today? Guerrier and Burton with 2.3 IP without allowing a hit. One game means next to nothing.

#20 DJSim22

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 02:17 PM

I think you are perhaps right in your first statement. It usually takes around 90 wins to be in the playoffs. It might not take that many this year, but it is going to take some improvement for this team to get 85 plus.

As far as the pitching goes, we all saw what Tonkin and Johnson looked like earlier this year in small samples. Tonkin was very inconsistent, Johnson's 1 start was painful to watch, even though he didn't give up any runs. Yet these are doing extremely well at AAA. It is best to take AAA numbers with a grain of salt, they often don't translate that well to the majors.

As far as Burdi goes, he may well be very good, but expecting him to be ready for the majors is pretty optimistic. College competition is very below A ball in terms in of quality, it can be pretty difficult to make any realistic guess how college players will perform even in the minors much less the majors.


Tonkin and Johnson thus far look like AAAA pitchers to me. Nice guys to have around for 15 days stints, wouldn't be really happy to see them in big spots in a division race.

#21 DocBauer

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Posted 17 June 2014 - 06:48 PM

For over 20 years now, one thing you could usually point to the Twins having was a solid to quality bullpen. Sure there have been ebbs and flows, and some years a bullpen that was OK and would have been much better if not overworked. One thing that's always been a staple is a closer, and a quality set-up man or two. We acquired some of these closers, the Reardons, Aggies and Nathan's, and some were home grown, often starting as middle men and setup men before graduating to closer status like Trombley, Guardado, Hawkins and now Perkins.

From TK and Such's day to Gardy and Anderson, one thing we've been known for is finding some real quality relievers and setup men from nowhere, or a "garbage heap". Think about Berenguer and Willis in years past, to Fien and Burton recently. Even found some decent long/middle men and LH's like Swindell and Reyes at times.

I like our bullpen generally, though I think it's down from last year's, (which was quite good but overworked) I like Deunsing and Thielbar, and wonder at those that don't. Fien as developed far beyond expectation, and I think has proven himself. I still like Burton last season, but I think the magic is gone. Swarzak has been a disappointment, but I'm hoping for a turnaround yet. Guerrier is not part of the future, and I just don't know what he's got left, if anything. Sooner or later, Achter and Tonkin need to be up. Burdi could help as early as sometime next season. Majors and minors, the pieces are there. We just need a little tweaking.