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Vance Worley surprised Twins wanted him to lead the rotation in 2013

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#1 Parker Hageman

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Posted 14 June 2014 - 05:03 PM

[FONT=arial][SIZE=3]After performing well for their AAA Indianapolis affiliate, the Pittsburgh Pirates have recalled pitcher Vance Worley up to pitch on Sunday.

The Twins traded Worley to the Pirates in exchange for cash after several poor spring training outings in a row and a disappointing 2013 season in which he posted a 7.21 ERA in 48.2 innings in Minnesota.

Worley, who was coming off bone chip clean-up surgery in 2012, told Travis Sawchik of the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review that he was not 100% heading into the season in 2013 and was surprised the Twins anointed him the Opening Day starter.

[COLOR=#000000]In speaking to the Tribune-Review late last month in Indianapolis, Worley said he was not 100 percent to begin 2013 after having remove bone chips from his elbow at the end of the 2012 season. He was surprised the Twins wanted him to lead their rotation.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

[COLOR=#000000][FONT=arial]

[FONT=arial]Wow. That's...interesting?

Once with the Pirates, Worley pitched infinitely better, going 3-2 with a 4.30 ERA but a much improved 43-to-4 strikeout-to-walk ratio in 46 innings (by comparison he had struck out just 25 in the 48.2 innings with the Twins last year). Pirates manager Clint Hurdle told reporters that his fastball is much better and his changeup has become his "go-to pitch".

Having talked about it at length on this site last year, Worley's changeup has long been a work in progress that has fallen flat and has been a constantly below average pitch for him over the last few years.


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#2 Thrylos

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Posted 14 June 2014 - 05:59 PM

[COLOR=#000000][FONT=arial]

[FONT=arial]Wow. That's...interesting? [/FONT]
[/FONT][/COLOR]


Interesting?

What's new? We are talking about the same people who preferred Nishioka & Hoey over Hardy, Capps over Ramos, Young over Garza, LeCroy over Ortiz, had Livan Hernandez as an opening day starter (and Brad Radke over Johan Santana multiple seasons & Pavano over Liriano twice,) discarded Carlos Gomez, Kyle Lohse, R.A. Dickey, Pat Neshek et. al.

Why is the Worley situation "interesting"? SOP for them. Could had been worse. They could had anointed Diamond the opening day starter last season.

Heck, this is the same people who brought us 99+96+96 and then had the audacity to celebrate Gardenhire's 1000th win in that context. And the worst part about that, is that only a few Twins' fans blinked an eye.

The Twins' FO and field management are talking about players' "scholarships", while they are tenured.
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#3 The Wise One

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Posted 14 June 2014 - 09:04 PM

This is interesting
I didn't know that Bill Smith was still the GM
Santana became a full time starter in 2004, by that time Radke had been the staff Ace for almost 10 years. Radke was going to be the opening day starter. Now when it really mattered in the playoffs, who started game one? Santana started.
Pavano vs Liriano an issue?
Stretching a lot to find criticism?

#4 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 14 June 2014 - 09:35 PM

Opening Day starter simply does not matter.

At all.

With that said, I find Worley's comments a humorous aside.

#5 diehardtwinsfan

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 05:57 AM

If Worley was surprised that he was made the opening day starter in 2013, then he clearly wasn't reading about how things were going in 2012 for the Twins. Based on his 2012 numbers, he and Diamond were really the only options there. Diamond was slowed due to injury and the only meaningful free agent was KC, who has been demoted to the pen in Pittsburg in 2012.

#6 Major Leauge Ready

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 06:03 AM

It is not a matter of "not blinking an eye". It is a matter of perspective. Some of us look around the league and see that teams who are not in the top 10 in terms of revenue have down cycles and many of them much longer than the down period our team endured recently. The Twins organization has done a better job than most of the other teams in the same revenue range in terms of keeping a good product of the field. We also look at 2011 in realistic terms given the injuries.

Are the front offices for both Chicago teams grossly incompetent or does it simply take time to rebuild? We also ask if those teams are rebuilding through the draft. So, we look at their farm systems. Then, we look at our farm system in comparison. We recognize a couple average CFs were traded away but that those trades produced our two promising SP prospects who are nearly ready to join the big league club.

Having said this, there have been poor decisions starting with Hardy and Capps. And, none of us can know for sure what Boston offered for Santana but they really blew that one if a couple of the reported offers were real.

#7 Sconnie

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 06:18 AM

I guess if I were Vance Worley, I'd be surprised too. He was a fine pitcher for Philadelphia, but in no way was he ace material.

It's funny how when the Vanimal was here, I don't recall him saying much about Philadelphia. Now that he's in Pittsburgh, he's been somewhat vocal about his dislike of MN. Maybe he missed the Pennsylvania Dutch. Would it have helped his career with the Twins to spend more time with Bert Blyleven? Or is just Dutch not close enough to Pennsylvania Dutch?

Maybe he couldn't handle the microscopic nit picking pressure? If only he could have stuck around long enough to get more pointers on coping mechanisms from Phil Hughes.

Or maybe Pittsburgh has been lucky enough (or observant enough) to take advantage of the Dead Cat Bounce of a couple of former Twins.

#8 old nurse

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 06:25 AM

It is not a matter of "not blinking an eye". It is a matter of perspective. Some of us look around the league and see that teams who are not in the top 10 in terms of revenue have down cycles and many of them much longer than the down period our team endured recently. The Twins organization has done a better job than most of the other teams in the same revenue range in terms of keeping a good product of the field. We also look at 2011 in realistic terms given the injuries.

Are the front offices for both Chicago teams grossly incompetent or does it simply take time to rebuild? We also ask if those teams are rebuilding through the draft. So, we look at their farm systems. Then, we look at our farm system in comparison. We recognize a couple average CFs were traded away but that those trades produced our two promising SP prospects who are nearly ready to join the big league club.

Having said this, there have been poor decisions starting with Hardy and Capps. And, none of us can know for sure what Boston offered for Santana but they really blew that one if a couple of the reported offers were real.


Not to be mean or anything, but in the hindsight is 20-20 department
http://sports.espn.g...tory?id=3138088
In the Coulda, Woulda, Shoulda department. Had they kept Santana and had the Mets signed him, they could have taken a toolsy HS outfielder with 24 pick of the Mets that was available and been way ahead

#9 Sconnie

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 06:28 AM

Are the front offices for both Chicago teams grossly incompetent or does it simply take time to rebuild? We also ask if those teams are rebuilding through the draft. So, we look at their farm systems. Then, we look at our farm system in comparison.

Having said this, there have been poor decisions starting with Hardy and Capps. And, none of us can know for sure what Boston offered for Santana but they really blew that one if a couple of the reported offers were real.

I think The a White Sox are on the right track. Cubs? Not so sure, I know there's a lot of respect for Theo Epstein out there, but that team has been mismanaged for 80 years.

Hardy was absolutely a blunder from the get go. There was a lot of disbelief around here with phrases like "you want to get rid of the best SS this team has had in years to take a flyer on a Japanese player?" I was optimistic at the time, but history proved it's point.

Hind site on Capps is dicey, this team needed a good closer and made a trade from a position of strength to a position of need, I can't fault that. The resigning I struggle with.

Regarding the Santana trade, I'm sure they took the best offer available. Turns out it was a good trade, the Twins just weren't patient enough to see the payoff.

#10 JB_Iowa

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 08:30 AM

Or is just Dutch not close enough to Pennsylvania Dutch?


Just as a cultural and historical lesson, the "Pennsylvania Dutch" have no connection to "Dutch". They are primarily of German descent (mostly from Southwest Germany) and have historically spoken a version of German that came to be known as Pennsylvania Dutch. As a group, they tended to immigrate mostly in the 1700's (some a little earlier). One of my genealogical lines was Pennsylvania Dutch so I've done a little reading on them.

OTOH, one of my great-grandmothers was born in southwest Germany (was not Pennsylvania Dutch) and told stories of skating back and forth to Holland on the canals. She always said that they could talk more easily with their Dutch-speaking neighbors after they came to America than with their English-speaking ones.

So, maybe Vanimal and Bert could have communicated. :) Obviously something just did not click in Minnesota but maybe Worley just wasn't recovered enough from his injury at the start of the season and everything spiraled downward from there.

#11 birdwatcher

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 09:03 AM

Opening Day starter simply does not matter.

At all.

With that said, I find Worley's comments a humorous aside.


I agree with this. He's certainly not worth getting all worked up about, especially about unrelated past sins, real or otherwise. Worley was "surprised" by everything, it seems, from the moment he learned he was traded. He came to the Twins with a horrible attitude. That was evident in the physical condition in which he reported, his work ethic, his blaming his pathetic performance on everything else, including the wind, his mule-stubborn refusal to take direction once he was finally shipped out. How about holding Worley accountable for his dismal behavior instead of turning it into an irrational rant about how those darn incompetent Twins blew it again?

#12 CRArko

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 09:06 AM

The wind must be gentler in Pittsburgh.
Verrrrrry Interesting!

#13 Guest_USAFChief_*

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 09:11 AM

I agree with this. He's certainly not worth getting all worked up about, especially about unrelated past sins, real or otherwise. Worley was "surprised" by everything, it seems, from the moment he learned he was traded. He came to the Twins with a horrible attitude. That was evident in the physical condition in which he reported, his work ethic, his blaming his pathetic performance on everything else, including the wind, his mule-stubborn refusal to take direction once he was finally shipped out. How about holding Worley accountable for his dismal behavior instead of turning it into an irrational rant about how those darn incompetent Twins blew it again?

Well...who was it that traded for him again?

#14 jorgenswest

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 09:16 AM

The Twins chose Bartlett, Pelfrey, Guerrier and Kubel over guys like Worley, Hendriks, Presley and Mastroianni.

There may not be value in any of the 8, but the Twins went with the quartet of 30 year olds over any upside in that quartet of younger players.

Rebuilding teams go the other direction. If the Twins aren't rebuilding, they need to be held accountable for winning.

#15 jokin

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 09:18 AM

I agree with this. He's certainly not worth getting all worked up about, especially about unrelated past sins, real or otherwise. Worley was "surprised" by everything, it seems, from the moment he learned he was traded. He came to the Twins with a horrible attitude. That was evident in the physical condition in which he reported, his work ethic, his blaming his pathetic performance on everything else, including the wind, his mule-stubborn refusal to take direction once he was finally shipped out.

How about holding Worley accountable for his dismal behavior instead of turning it into an irrational rant about how those darn incompetent Twins blew it again?


The very second that someone in the Twins organization besides Bill Smith is held accountable for all of their vast mis-assessments of talent, personalities and Plan A and B options over the last 7 seasons, I'll be right there with you on Worley.

#16 The Wise One

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 09:39 AM

The Twins chose Bartlett, Pelfrey, Guerrier and Kubel over guys like Worley, Hendriks, Presley and Mastroianni.

There may not be value in any of the 8, but the Twins went with the quartet of 30 year olds over any upside in that quartet of younger players.

Rebuilding teams go the other direction. If the Twins aren't rebuilding, they need to be held accountable for winning.


They would not be winning any more with Mastro, Presley or Hendriks. The Bartlet mistake was corrected by getting Fuld who has done more for the Twins than Presley has done for the Astros or Mastro for the Jays. Kubel was exchanged for Morales. It would be easier to accept criticism for what they kept in the spring if any of the players they jettisoned would even be playing above replacement baseball. Worley is back on a major league team. After a few starts the baseball world will know if he is pitching decently or not.

I do find it strange the love shown Worley now versus what he got last year.

#17 Beezer07

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 09:45 AM

They would not be winning any more with Mastro, Presley or Hendriks. The Bartlet mistake was corrected by getting Fuld who has done more for the Twins than Presley has done for the Astros or Mastro for the Jays. Kubel was exchanged for Morales. It would be easier to accept criticism for what they kept in the spring if any of the players they jettisoned would even be playing above replacement baseball. Worley is back on a major league team. After a few starts the baseball world will know if he is pitching decently or not.

I do find it strange the love shown Worley now versus what he got last year.


Strange? I find it par for the course. Last year he was a Twin, and criticizing him gave an opportunity to criticize Twins coaches and management. This year's he's not a Twin, and giving him "love" gives an opportunity to criticize Twins coaches and management. Pretty straightforward, actually.

#18 The Wise One

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 09:50 AM

The very second that someone in the Twins organization besides Bill Smith is held accountable for all of their vast mis-assessments of talent, personalities and Plan A and B options over the last 7 seasons, I'll be right there with you on Worley.

Which front office in baseball is perfect?

#19 jokin

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 09:54 AM

They would not be winning any more with Mastro, Presley or Hendriks. The Bartlet mistake was corrected by getting Fuld who has done more for the Twins than Presley has done for the Astros or Mastro for the Jays. Kubel was exchanged for Morales. It would be easier to accept criticism for what they kept in the spring if any of the players they jettisoned would even be playing above replacement baseball. Worley is back on a major league team. After a few starts the baseball world will know if he is pitching decently or not.

I do find it strange the love shown Worley now versus what he got last year.


I do find it strange that I can't seem to find any of this "love shown Worley" you speak about in this thread.

#20 jokin

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 10:11 AM

Which front office in baseball is perfect?


No one expects perfect,
that there are no players with options left and available today except Pedro Florimon isn't expecting perfect,
that Pedro Florimon was deemed the starting SS in ST- no matter what- isn't expecting perfect,
that someone has yet to be held accountable for Nishi/Hardy/Hoey isn't expecting perfect,
that the Nick Blackburn signing fiasco hasn't had someone held accountable isn't expecting perfect,
that for many, many years running, Twins draft picks yielded little more than Trevor Plouffe and Glen Perkins wasn't expecting perfect,
that Jason Marquis, Vance Worley, Pedro Hernandez, PJ Walters and Cole DeVries were somehow greenlighted and passed off on the public as viable SP options was just plain insulting.
and that the Twins had no viable "Target Field Twins- Plan B" when Plan A fizzled so badly in 2011 wasn't expecting perfect, either.

#21 CRArko

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 10:27 AM

I think they should fire everybody and hire me.
Verrrrrry Interesting!

#22 jokin

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 03:29 PM

Sure to stir up controversy, for stating the facts as an act of love, BaggerVance goes 7 shutout innings, with 5 Ks, giving up 5 hits vs. the Marlins today.

#23 dgwills

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 03:58 PM

Sure to stir up controversy, for stating the facts as an act of love, BaggerVance goes 7 shutout innings, with 5 Ks, giving up 5 hits vs. the Marlins today.

That guy sounds pretty good. The Twins should try to trade for him ;)

#24 Thrylos

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 04:41 PM

Which front office in baseball is perfect?


The one that wins a World Series that season.
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#25 Hosken Bombo Disco

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 06:22 PM

What might be interesting to me is the K/9 rate. Hovered around 7-8 with Phillies, dipped to 4-5 with Twins, back up to 7-8 during stint with Pittsburgh's AAA team. I just sent him a valentine on match.com so let's see if he replies back. :)

#26 birdwatcher

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 06:40 PM

Well...who was it that traded for him again?


I'm missing the relevance of this question. Were the Twins supposed to clairvoyantly know that Worley would decide to be less professional about being traded than most players are?

#27 The Wise One

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 06:46 PM

The one that wins a World Series that season.

So every year there ought to be 29 GM and field manger jobs open as there seems to be you make mistakes you should be fired sentiment expressed by many.

#28 birdwatcher

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 06:48 PM

The very second that someone in the Twins organization besides Bill Smith is held accountable for all of their vast mis-assessments of talent, personalities and Plan A and B options over the last 7 seasons, I'll be right there with you on Worley.


You mean all those mis-assessments that are prevalent with every team over seven
years? All those mis-assessments that get brought up all the time, while all the correct assessments, which are far more prevalent, go unmentioned? Are Fien and Thielbar mis-assessments? How about Hughes? Arcia?

#29 TheLeviathan

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 06:49 PM

I'm missing the relevance of this question. Were the Twins supposed to clairvoyantly know that Worley would decide to be less professional about being traded than most players are?


Part of player acquisition is to get an idea of their personality make-up. One could argue the Twins disproportionately emphasize that area as well.

It's hard to put the Worley acquisition as anything but a total failure. The overall deal might be salvaged, but this part of the trade was a complete blunder on the part of Ryan and company. And that's ok. It happens.

[COLOR=#333333][FONT=Verdana]All those mis-assessments that get brought up all the time, while all the correct assessments, which are [/FONT][/COLOR]far more prevalent, go unmentioned?


When you almost lose 100 games three straight years...I don't think there are "far more" correct assessments going on. If that were the case I'm mystified how they turned that into cellar-dwelling for three years.

#30 birdwatcher

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 06:54 PM

The Twins chose Bartlett, Pelfrey, Guerrier and Kubel over guys like Worley, Hendriks, Presley and Mastroianni.

There may not be value in any of the 8, but the Twins went with the quartet of 30 year olds over any upside in that quartet of younger players.

Rebuilding teams go the other direction. If the Twins aren't rebuilding, they need to be held accountable for winning.


None of these 8 is relevant in a discussion about a complex, multi-year rebuilding effort. Rebuilding teams do precisely what the Twins are doing, even the Yankees these days. Which is to incrementally rebuild incrementally and live with the complaints from an impatient fan base regarding solutions that are a year away or haven't yet been a priority.



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