Jump to content

Providing independent coverage of the Minnesota Twins.

The Store

Subscribe to Twins Daily Email

Recent Blogs


Photo

Article: When Will Josmil Pinto Be Sent Down?

  • Please log in to reply
70 replies to this topic

#1 Nick Nelson

Nick Nelson

    Owner

  • Administrators
  • 2,167 posts

Posted 10 June 2014 - 08:49 PM

You can view the page at http://www.twinsdail...to-Be-Sent-Down

#2 stringer bell

stringer bell

    Front office apologist

  • Twins News Team
  • 4,599 posts
  • LocationZumbrota MN

Posted 10 June 2014 - 08:58 PM

A more evenhanded take than the thread on the forum. I want Pinto to make some progress receiving and throwing as well as getting consistent at-bats. I think that is best done in the minors. Spoiler alert--learning to hit solely right handed is probably best done in the minors, too.

#3 jorgenswest

jorgenswest

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 1,741 posts

Posted 10 June 2014 - 09:08 PM

This is Pinto's 9th year in the organization. In the first 8, hopefully they will have assessed his defense skills. If there were significant concerns they should have been addressed in the first 8. Going to Rochester might help him fix a recently developed mechanical flaw and shake some rust, it won't develop a skill if it isn't there. Getting at bats in a Rochester will also help, but it won't help him adjust to major league pitching.

The Twins are going for it this year. They can't go for it and develop struggling young players. Teams can't do both well. With no one running away in the central it makes some sense.

In order to help the 2014 Twins, they need to send Pinto (and Hicks) down. It won't help their long term development. They need to send them down so they get regular at bats and time on the field as they wait to be called on when an injury occurs.

#4 DK

DK

    Junior Member

  • Members
  • 19 posts

Posted 10 June 2014 - 09:12 PM

I have been asking this question for a few weeks. Is Pinto the future Twins catcher? His throwing may never be much better. Do the twins want to put their young pitchers in his hands?

#5 Tibs

Tibs

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 797 posts

Posted 10 June 2014 - 09:21 PM

I wouldn't have a problem with Eric Fryer sitting on the bench opposed to Pinto. Pinto needs to play, and he isn't going to play if he is struggling and Suzuki is playing well, especially now with Morales.

#6 DocBauer

DocBauer

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 906 posts

Posted 10 June 2014 - 10:05 PM

In truth, I'm very torn on this subject. I don't believe Pinto is a great C, and may never be. But I don't think he's bad either. We all know he has areas to work on, like most young prospects. He has shown the past couple years in the minors, last season with the Twins, during ST, and April, that his bat has real potential. Despite not having the best mechanics, he has a strong arm and caught a good % of runners in the minors.

I think a lot of young players reach a certain point where you have to wonder where they are better served. Yes, Pinto needs to play. More than he has been of late. But with Suzuki to learn from, ( even Mauer probably), and Steinbach to work with, and his ML experience last season and so far this season, is he better off long term up, or down. Has he reached that point where everyday play at AAA does little or nothing compared to learning at the ML level?

Trying to fight my "want" for him to be at the ML level, I'm really unsure. But there is a part of me that believes catching 3 out of every 7 games, and getting a 4th at DH when Morales or Mauer sits might serve him better in the long run. I think this would be achieved fairly easily considering Suzuki also needs time off, no matter how well he's playing, just to last the season if nothing else.

#7 Shane Wahl

Shane Wahl

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 4,155 posts

Posted 10 June 2014 - 10:08 PM

There is no way in hell I would bring Eric Fryer or Chris Herrmann to replace Josmil Pinto on the 25-man roster. Pinto playing more might actually help him.

Imagine that . . .

#8 frightwig

frightwig

    Member

  • Members
  • 59 posts

Posted 10 June 2014 - 10:16 PM

I'd like to see Pinto get 2-3 starts at Catcher + 1-2 starts at DH every week, but Gardy isn't likely to do that. So, I'd get rid of Gardy. But that isn't going to happen, either. So, they might as well send Pinto down to Rochester where he can play every day. Maybe next year, at age 26, they'll give him more than 5 weeks and ~110 PA to settle into a regular role, before deciding whether he's a keeper.

This is pretty stupid, though. Clubs, especially rebuilding clubs, really shouldn't be deciding to send down a guy like Pinto because a guy like Kurt Suzuki has had a nice 2 months, which puts him on track for a career year at age 30, and the GM couldn't resist bringing in a veteran DH who makes the team marginally better.

#9 TheBigGuy7273

TheBigGuy7273

    Junior Member

  • Members
  • 25 posts

Posted 10 June 2014 - 10:42 PM

Most everyone has made good points, some are more valid then others. Pinto's defense wasn't this bad during his call up last year, but teams have forced him to make plays, and more times then not he is throwing the ball away, more over the fact that teams have had a chance to scout him more on both sides of the ball has not helped him. essentailly he has yet to make the adjustment. Its better for his defense to stay in the majors to keep working with Stienbach, but he needs more regular at bats. Quite frankly, he needs to catch once a series, or once to every 2 for Kurt. however, on the other hand going down and starting to get a good rapport with the young guns at AAA may be more beneficial to everyone in the long run. I think going down until say the All-star break or so would be ok. just so he can get some confidence back, and maybe thats all he needs. but i also think that Gardy has to keep Kurt fresher or he's going to be much closer to or below his career averages offensivly, and the best person to do that with is Pinto. if Gardy starts im 3 times a week once at DH and catches twice then I am ok with him staying up. if not send him down for awhile either until he's needed or until he forces his way back onto the roster. he's a player, but whats the best longterm answer, not what is the best right now.
I would think optioning him within the next week needs to happen. he has given us a taste of how good he can be. and devolpmently thats best for him and the organization and Meyer and May to, he will be catching those two regularly, and that in my opinion is the best option both right now, but more importantly long term!

#10 twinsnorth49

twinsnorth49

    Moderately Moderate

  • Twins Mods
  • 3,975 posts

Posted 10 June 2014 - 11:26 PM

Clubs, especially rebuilding clubs, really shouldn't be deciding to send down a guy like Pinto because a guy like Kurt Suzuki has had a nice 2 months, which puts him on track for a career year at age 30.


This, Pinto should be playing more in the majors, I don't get the commitment to Suzuki, despite how well he's playing for the time being .

#11 jokin

jokin

    Twins News Team

  • Twins News Team
  • 7,895 posts

Posted 10 June 2014 - 11:28 PM

This is Pinto's 9th year in the organization. In the first 8, hopefully they will have assessed his defense skills. If there were significant concerns they should have been addressed in the first 8. Going to Rochester might help him fix a recently developed mechanical flaw and shake some rust, it won't develop a skill if it isn't there. Getting at bats in a Rochester will also help, but it won't help him adjust to major league pitching.

The Twins are going for it this year. They can't go for it and develop struggling young players. Teams can't do both well. With no one running away in the central it makes some sense.

In order to help the 2014 Twins, they need to send Pinto (and Hicks) down. It won't help their long term development. They need to send them down so they get regular at bats and time on the field as they wait to be called on when an injury occurs.


Exactly right, on both, and also when/if Suzuki begins to wilt. Suzuki is currently on pace for 131 games, which he hasn't been asked to do since 2011. Big question if he can keep the same pace nearing age 31 from when he was age 27.

#12 Guest_USAFChief_*

Guest_USAFChief_*
  • Guests

Posted 10 June 2014 - 11:33 PM

I'm not at all sure I agree that Pinto is heading to Rochester.

#13 nicksaviking

nicksaviking

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 4,428 posts

Posted 11 June 2014 - 07:31 AM

The Morales signing says the Twins aren't interested in letting young players take their lumps at the MLB level, though that's what I prefer. I'm also guessing he'll go down. Knowing how things usually work around here, about the time he is demoted, Suzuki will finally come back down to earth.

Also, about the necessity of having a good defensive catcher to win; Brian Harper is laughing while he is polishing his WS ring as is Jared Saltilamacchia. Good hitting trumps good catching. Good pitching trumps them both.

#14 bronald3030

bronald3030

    Junior Member

  • Members
  • 8 posts

Posted 11 June 2014 - 07:43 AM

I do not think sending Pinto down is going to help him become any better. I think he is a good back up catcher and that's all he will ever be.

#15 jorgenswest

jorgenswest

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 1,741 posts

Posted 11 June 2014 - 07:59 AM

The Morales signing says the Twins aren't interested in letting young players take their lumps at the MLB level, though that's what I prefer. I'm also guessing he'll go down. Knowing how things usually work around here, about the time he is demoted, Suzuki will finally come back down to earth.

Also, about the necessity of having a good defensive catcher to win; Brian Harper is laughing while he is polishing his WS ring as is Jared Saltilamacchia. Good hitting trumps good catching. Good pitching trumps them both.


I think the Twins agree with you about catcher defense.

I don't agree about Harper. He only threw out 22% of runners in the 1991 season and prior to that it had been in the 30s. That got some notice with the team in the news. The most important part of what a catcher does is receive the ball and call the games. One thing that usually stands out over time for catchers that lack in this skill is poorer K/BB ratios relative to the team. I believe the k/bb ratio with Brian Harper catching was better than the team average in each if his seasons.

#16 spycake

spycake

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 2,625 posts

Posted 11 June 2014 - 08:03 AM

Exactly right, on both, and also when/if Suzuki begins to wilt. Suzuki is currently on pace for 131 games, which he hasn't been asked to do since 2011. Big question if he can keep the same pace nearing age 31 from when he was age 27.


Suzuki's games caught pace is actually only 115 or so, which would equal his 2012 season, and that pace has been pretty steady all year so far.

#17 twinsfaninsaudi

twinsfaninsaudi

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 153 posts

Posted 11 June 2014 - 08:10 AM

At this point I think what is best for the offense is for the most part Morales playing first, Pinto at DH. If you're scared of both catchers being in the lineup have Hermann replace Parmelee on the roster. I could not care less about risking the loss of Parmelee

#18 SpiritofVodkaDave

SpiritofVodkaDave

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 4,241 posts

Posted 11 June 2014 - 08:18 AM

The Morales signing says the Twins aren't interested in letting young players take their lumps at the MLB level,


Gonna have to disagree with your police work there norm.

We have Trevor Plouffe, Aaron Hicks, Oswaldo Arcia and Brian Dozier on line two for ya. The Twins let plenty of young players take there lumps in the majors. I think the reality is that Pinto, though a nice player, just doesn't hit enough to be an everyday DH in this league. However, if he can at least prove to be a somewhat decent defensive catcher, he has the potential to be one of the better hitting ones in the league.

I think the Morales signing says that the Twins want to make a run at it this year, and I for one am very happy for that.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take"- L. Harvey Oswald

:whacky028::whacky028: :whacky028::whacky028:

#19 spycake

spycake

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 2,625 posts

Posted 11 June 2014 - 08:22 AM

I say keep Pinto up. Even if he's the backup, I like the idea of having a useful backup catcher for a change. Pinto's been pretty bad the past month, but even then he's got a ~.600 OPS during that period which is probably the upside for Fryer or Herrmann.

I would like to see Gardy and the team get creative with his playing time, though. (And no, that doesn't mean Pinto in CF :) ) Morales will need some days off in the early going, Willingham should get regular rest, and Mauer looks like he could use it as well. If Mauer was willing to pick up an outfielder's glove a few times, we could stagger their days off so Pinto could DH for virtually all of them. I'd rather see that for awhile then messing around with Parmelee, Nunez, Fuld, or Hicks in the corner OF spots, or even Parmelee at 1B. Maybe some time in the outfield would take Mauer's mind off his offensive struggles too. If that extra DH time doesn't kickstart Pinto's bat, and we're still doing okay in the standings, he could gradually recede to the traditional backup role.

Of course, if Suzuki starts to slip or we're not climbing up in the standings, I would hope the 70-30 catcher playing time split would move closer to 50-50 (or better yet, 30-70 in favor of Pinto).

#20 jokin

jokin

    Twins News Team

  • Twins News Team
  • 7,895 posts

Posted 11 June 2014 - 08:49 AM

I would like to see Gardy and the team get creative with his playing time, though. (And no, that doesn't mean Pinto in CF :) ) Morales will need some days off in the early going, Willingham should get regular rest, and Mauer looks like he could use it as well. If that extra DH time doesn't kickstart Pinto's bat, and we're still doing okay in the standings, he could gradually recede to the traditional backup role.

Of course, if Suzuki starts to slip or we're not climbing up in the standings, I would hope the 70-30 catcher playing time split would move closer to 50-50 (or better yet, 30-70 in favor of Pinto).


Not likely to happen until/if Zuke's production collapses, if we stay competitive. And aren't the players all worn out with the creative playing time of guys out of position on the field? Mauer in RF won't likely take his mind off of his struggles, he's soon near a point where a trip to the DL is coming if he doesn't turn this around soon. Mauer will likely DH or take a day off for the very few times that Morales takes the field at 1st, and since they want Morales to stay healthy to maximize their return on investment, that won't be very many times.

Suzuki's games caught pace is actually only 115 or so, which would equal his 2012 season, and that pace has been pretty steady all year so far.


It's 115.71 games caught, to be exact, but consider....

...That with Morales here, and when/if Pinto goes down, Kurt's DH appearances this year are now likely going to be with him playing at catcher instead, and the Fryer/Hermann catching ratio per Suzuki would likely be even lower than the Suzuki to Pinto ratio of 71.5%-28.5%. Probably no better than 20% or maybe just once a week, if the Twins stay competitive (knowing Gardy). I calculated using the Zuke-Catching-at-5-of-6-games measure for the remaining games, which would put Zuke on the 131 pace (counting the 4 games at DH).

Edited by jokin, 11 June 2014 - 08:59 AM.


#21 Hosken Bombo Disco

Hosken Bombo Disco

    Rochester

  • Members
  • 1,548 posts

Posted 11 June 2014 - 08:52 AM

Gonna have to disagree with your police work there norm.

We have Trevor Plouffe, Aaron Hicks, Oswaldo Arcia and Brian Dozier on line two for ya. The Twins let plenty of young players take there lumps in the majors. I think the reality is that Pinto, though a nice player, just doesn't hit enough to be an everyday DH in this league. However, if he can at least prove to be a somewhat decent defensive catcher, he has the potential to be one of the better hitting ones in the league.

I think the Morales signing says that the Twins want to make a run at it this year, and I for one am very happy for that.


Partly true, but only out of practicality. It remains a half in, half out operation to my mind. If Gardy could run out a veteran lineup of Suzuki, Kubel, Doumit, Carroll, Willingham, etc, he probably would.

If the Twins make this a race with all these old guys, I'll be cheering too, so save me a seat on the bandwagon :)

#22 TheDean

TheDean

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 189 posts

Posted 11 June 2014 - 09:06 AM

TD seems to rarely come to a consensus on things, but one point that was made loud and clear on the debate over the interesting handling of OF depth in the early parts of the season was the importance of every spot on the 25-man. Right now IMO, Pinto>all Twins minor league position players for spot 25, and Pinto >> all Twins minor league catchers.

Someone interpreted the Morales signing as "young players aren't going to play and struggle at the ML level the rest of this year." My interpretation is "let's try to win some games and make the AL Central interesting." If you're trying to win, you assemble the best 25-man at your organization's disposal, and you put the best lineup(s) out there day in and day out. It just so happens that (unfortunately) Pinto is a member of the organization's 25 best players, but not one of their best 9. Fortunately, he has a great bat and plays a position that requires the starter to be spelled with greater frequency than any other position. If we're not seeing Pinto a few times a week, we'd have to watch Fryer or Herrmann behind the plate. I know which of the three I'd choose.

Pinto is on a trajectory almost identical to Dozier and Plouffe as far as talent/age/tools/defensive questions. IMO, Dozier and Plouffe made their best adjustments and developments at the ML-level over the last few years, but then I'm just a casual observer...coaches are paid for a reason.

#23 Guest_USAFChief_*

Guest_USAFChief_*
  • Guests

Posted 11 June 2014 - 09:13 AM

TD seems to rarely come to a consensus on things, but one point that was made loud and clear on the debate over the interesting handling of OF depth in the early parts of the season was the importance of every spot on the 25-man. Right now IMO, Pinto>all Twins minor league position players for spot 25, and Pinto >> all Twins minor league catchers.

Someone interpreted the Morales signing as "young players aren't going to play and struggle at the ML level the rest of this year." My interpretation is "let's try to win some games and make the AL Central interesting." If you're trying to win, you assemble the best 25-man at your organization's disposal, and you put the best lineup(s) out there day in and day out. It just so happens that (unfortunately) Pinto is a member of the organization's 25 best players, but not one of their best 9. Fortunately, he has a great bat and plays a position that requires the starter to be spelled with greater frequency than any other position. If we're not seeing Pinto a few times a week, we'd have to watch Fryer or Herrmann behind the plate. I know which of the three I'd choose.

Pinto is on a trajectory almost identical to Dozier and Plouffe as far as talent/age/tools/defensive questions. IMO, Dozier and Plouffe made their best adjustments and developments at the ML-level over the last few years, but then I'm just a casual observer...coaches are paid for a reason.

Great post.

#24 spycake

spycake

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 2,625 posts

Posted 11 June 2014 - 09:46 AM

...That with Morales here, and when/if Pinto goes down, Kurt's DH appearances this year are now likely going to be with him playing at catcher instead, and the Fryer/Hermann catching ratio per Suzuki would likely be even lower than the Suzuki to Pinto ratio of 71.5%-28.5%. Probably no better than 20% or maybe just once a week, if the Twins stay competitive (knowing Gardy). I calculated using the Zuke-Catching-at-5-of-6-games measure for the remaining games, which would put Zuke on the 131 pace (counting the 4 games at DH).


Since May 8 (after which Pinto's playing time dropped dramatically), Suzuki has started 21 of 30 games at catcher (113 per season pace). Only 2 DH appearances during that time.

I think 70/30 is a safe estimate for the split, assuming Pinto stays up and starts leveling off offensively. I too could see it going up to 80/20 if Pinto gets worse or if Fryer/Herrmann take his place, especially if Suzuki keeps hitting and we stay in the neighborhood of contention.

#25 JB_Iowa

JB_Iowa

    Cynical Oldie

  • Members
  • 4,119 posts
  • LocationNorthwest Iowa

Posted 11 June 2014 - 09:51 AM

  • Mike Berardino ‏@MikeBerardino 4m
    Gardy(smiling): "How many different ways are you guys going to ask it? I’m not answering any more questions on Pinto. We're working on it."

#26 jokin

jokin

    Twins News Team

  • Twins News Team
  • 7,895 posts

Posted 11 June 2014 - 09:54 AM

  • Mike Berardino ‏@MikeBerardino 4m
    Gardy(smiling): "How many different ways are you guys going to ask it? I’m not answering any more questions on Pinto. We're working on it."


Posted ImageMike Berardino @MikeBerardino · 15m

Catcher's ERA this year:
Josmil Pinto 4.72
Kurt Suzuki: 4.31Run Average

(all runs):
Pinto: 5.43
Suzuki: 4.40


#27 jokin

jokin

    Twins News Team

  • Twins News Team
  • 7,895 posts

Posted 11 June 2014 - 09:57 AM

Posted ImageMike Berardino @MikeBerardino · 30m

Josmil Pinto is 0 for 16 throwing out attempted basestealers. He has 5 errors, 3 passed balls and 6 wild pitches on his watch (18 games).

#28 spycake

spycake

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 2,625 posts

Posted 11 June 2014 - 09:59 AM

Pinto is on a trajectory almost identical to Dozier and Plouffe as far as talent/age/tools/defensive questions. IMO, Dozier and Plouffe made their best adjustments and developments at the ML-level over the last few years, but then I'm just a casual observer...coaches are paid for a reason.


To be fair, Dozier and Plouffe were always used as everyday players (Plouffe albeit at different positions). 500+ PA (combined majors and minors) every season. Neither was asked to learn or adjust sitting on the bench. Who was the last Twins prospect or regular who broke into MLB in an extended bench role? Cuddyer 2004 maybe, but even he totaled near 400 PA. Admittedly it's a little trickier for a catcher, they generally don't have much positional versatility (should Pinto see some reps in the corner OF? 1B?). Probably why they were so willing to trade Ramos too (I was hoping they would deploy Ramos like they did Doumit just two years later).

But I generally agree with you -- I'd keep Pinto in MLB for now, even as a backup.

#29 Beezer07

Beezer07

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 637 posts

Posted 11 June 2014 - 10:05 AM

Keep Pinto around, even as a backup. Between DHing once-ish a week (Morales "full time" DH, with maybe Dozier or Mauer or Hammer or Arcia getting an occasional day there) and catching 2-3 days per week, that seems sufficient for a 1st year catcher.

#30 JB_Iowa

JB_Iowa

    Cynical Oldie

  • Members
  • 4,119 posts
  • LocationNorthwest Iowa

Posted 11 June 2014 - 10:09 AM

Berardino's summary from today's pre-game presser:

http://blogs.twincit...le-a-rochester/