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Gardenhire's next target. Is it Pinto?

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#21 Boom Boom

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 02:11 PM

Pinto's in a tough situation. The Twins want him to improve defensively, but as a primary DH and only occasional catcher he's not really getting the chance to hone his craft.

I don't want Pinto to be a DH if he can be a catcher. He needs more reps in actual games. Catching bullpen sessions and doing drills with Steiny isn't enough IMO.

#22 S.

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 02:13 PM

Pinto doesn't seem to do anything well - block, throw out runners, or frame.

Suzuki is nothing to write home about when it comes to throwing out runners or framing either. And I find it hard to attack Pinto for struggling to catch Deduno. I'm pretty sure it'd be challenging for any catcher who didn't have experience catching a knuckleballer or someone else with no command and wild movement. I'm not sure what people expect taking a young, raw catcher and having him pretty much exclusively catch a guy who has zero idea where the ball is going to go.

#23 S.

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 02:18 PM

AAA is a development league. It's pretty clear that Pinto isn't ready to catch at the ML-level everyday. Again, do those skills he needs to be successful necessarily need to be developed at the ML-level or can they be developed at AAA?

If it was his bat that needed exposure, I'd be with you that exposure to ML pitching would help, but that his deficiencies are defensive, what he needs is games behind the plate, not exposure to elite competition.

His bat is a big part of this discussion, so I was including that in my point of view. I can see where you're coming from though.

#24 Rosterman

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 02:25 PM

Even though he is second in homers, if Suzuki can play near fulltime Pinto might be best getting regular time behind the plate (as well as working with future Twins starters May, Mere, Darnell et al) than sitting on the bench and maybe DHing. The question is, do we bring up Fryer just to sit, or is it Herrmann, who can do a little more, perhaps, in the field. Right now, forgive me, Pinto and Hicks would be best served in the minors.

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#25 jokin

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 02:28 PM

Even though he is second in homers, if Suzuki can play near fulltime Pinto might be best getting regular time behind the plate (as well as working with future Twins starters May, Mere, Darnell et al) than sitting on the bench and maybe DHing. The question is, do we bring up Fryer just to sit, or is it Herrmann, who can do a little more, perhaps, in the field. Right now, forgive me, Pinto and Hicks would be best served in the minors.


That's about where I stand on this debate. The argument about working with Steiny was OK, but now that Morales is here, let Pinto take what he's gotten from the major league braintrust and put it to work on a daily basis in Rochester for the time being. Could Hermann's wrist injury be the only reason why Pinto is still with the Twins? FTM, anyone have a status report on when Hermann is expected back in the lineup?

And Hicks to Roc. is a fait accompli once Fuld is back in the fold.

#26 gunnarthor

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 02:30 PM

I think some people aren't being that realistic on what Pinto really is. He's not an all star. He might not even be good enough to be a starter. His bat should be about what he is now, although less streaky. I suspect he can probably be a .240/.320/.430 105 OPS+ hitter, which is pretty good for a catcher. Whether or not his defense is good enough is another question.

If the Twins think he can improve his defense while catching Correia and Deduno and working hard with Steinbach, then keep him up and keep on the path that they are on. Suzuki will eventually slow down or get traded. May and Meyer will probably replace Correia and Deduno and Pinto can catch them. If the Twins think his defense is only going to get better playing every day, send him to AAA.

But if you think Pinto is secretly a .300/.350/.500 hitter than you're going to be disappointed. And it's not because of Gardy.

#27 jokin

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 02:33 PM

I think some people aren't being that realistic on what Pinto really is. He's not an all star. He might not even be good enough to be a starter. His bat should be about what he is now, although less streaky. I suspect he can probably be a .240/.320/.430 105 OPS+ hitter, which is pretty good for a catcher. Whether or not his defense is good enough is another question.

If the Twins think he can improve his defense while catching Correia and Deduno and working hard with Steinbach, then keep him up and keep on the path that they are on. Suzuki will eventually slow down or get traded. May and Meyer will probably replace Correia and Deduno and Pinto can catch them. If the Twins think his defense is only going to get better playing every day, send him to AAA.

But if you think Pinto is secretly a .300/.350/.500 hitter than you're going to be disappointed. And it's not because of Gardy.


Maybe Pinto could get an early start on catching Meyer and May this month in Rochester, then?

#28 tobi0040

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 02:33 PM

Suzuki is nothing to write home about when it comes to throwing out runners or framing either. And I find it hard to attack Pinto for struggling to catch Deduno. I'm pretty sure it'd be challenging for any catcher who didn't have experience catching a knuckleballer or someone else with no command and wild movement. I'm not sure what people expect taking a young, raw catcher and having him pretty much exclusively catch a guy who has zero idea where the ball is going to go.


I think we need to give framing about five years. There is so much nuance to this, the pitcher for example.

Here is an article showing why it was wise to move Carlos Santana from catching. I just don't buy the difference between a good catchers framing and a bad one is 45 runs, or 5 wins a year. Really?

http://www.waitingfo...tana-yan-gomes/

#29 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 02:34 PM

I think some people aren't being that realistic on what Pinto really is. He's not an all star. He might not even be good enough to be a starter. His bat should be about what he is now, although less streaky. I suspect he can probably be a .240/.320/.430 105 OPS+ hitter, which is pretty good for a catcher. Whether or not his defense is good enough is another question.

If the Twins think he can improve his defense while catching Correia and Deduno and working hard with Steinbach, then keep him up and keep on the path that they are on. Suzuki will eventually slow down or get traded. May and Meyer will probably replace Correia and Deduno and Pinto can catch them. If the Twins think his defense is only going to get better playing every day, send him to AAA.

But if you think Pinto is secretly a .300/.350/.500 hitter than you're going to be disappointed. And it's not because of Gardy.


All of this. I like Pinto and think he has a shot at being a nice piece for the Twins for quite some time... But I don't think he's suffering by getting a decent number of PAs and learning catching from a multitude of vets in Minnesota instead of starting in Rochester every day.

Would I like to see him get more PAs and catching starts as the season progresses? Absolutely, but I don't think it's an issue yet. If Gardy continues to bench him through the AS break, then it might be a problem.

#30 jokin

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 02:38 PM

All of this. I like Pinto and think he has a shot at being a nice piece for the Twins for quite some time... But I don't think he's suffering by getting a decent number of PAs and learning catching from a multitude of vets in Minnesota instead of starting in Rochester every day.

Would I like to see him get more PAs and catching starts as the season progresses? Absolutely, but I don't think it's an issue yet. If Gardy continues to bench him through the AS break, then it might be a problem.


Yet....it seems to be getting close to yet.

It's arguable that you could get him down in Rochester, playing every day and brushing up and applying what he's learned....meanwhile, reinvigorating his bat... so that when Suzuki has his inevitable drop-off, Pinto is ready to step into a bigger role with the Twins.

#31 gunnarthor

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 02:40 PM

Yet....it seems to be getting close to yet.

It's arguable that you could get him down in Rochester, playing every day and brushing up and applying what he's learned....meanwhile, reinvigorating his bat... so that when Suzuki has his inevitable drop-off, Pinto is ready to step into a bigger role with the Twins.

Yeah, and I would have no problem with that, either. (I might prefer May/Meyer replacing Deduno today though).

#32 pierre75275

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 02:42 PM

If you send down pinto who do u bring up? Fryer or hermann? I guess herman if u go with 13 pitchers..

#33 jokin

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 02:43 PM

Yeah, and I would have no problem with that, either. (I might prefer May/Meyer replacing Deduno today though).


Heh, absolutely right. (For that matter, I'd prefer May pitching "today" in Toronto instead of Correia).

#34 DaveW

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 02:48 PM

This thread is strange. Gardy clearly likes Pinto and has played him a good amount. However he is spot on by saying that Pinto needs to step it up either defensively (to stick at C) or offensively (to stick as a DH/part time C)

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#35 spycake

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 03:02 PM

This thread is strange. Gardy clearly likes Pinto and has played him a good amount. However he is spot on by saying that Pinto needs to step it up either defensively (to stick at C) or offensively (to stick as a DH/part time C)


To be fair, they've kinda boxed Pinto in too. He hasn't been getting many reps at DH or C, and he is only going to get less with Morales in the fold. As I mentioned upthread, he's already been reduced to a 260 PA/season pace the last month. He's raked the last few years, but that was with 500-600 PA seasons. I imagine it's a difficult transition.

I guess I'd frame it less that he's "Gardy's next target" but that Pinto is in a tough situation. (And Gardy & the Twins are in a tough situation too, if they want Pinto to succeed but still want to win this year.)

#36 DuluthFan

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 03:03 PM

If Pinto is on the major league roster, matching him up with Coreia and Deduno is the perfect way for him to develop his catching skills. He would get more chances per start to work on his catching, blocking, throwing skills. If he is matched up with pitchers that don't need the extra help from their catcher, he will not get better. Ideally he should be working on his defensive skills at the minor league level where the development of players should done, not at the major league level.

As far as Pinto being the next franchise catcher, consider that if Mauer had not suffered his concussion he would still be the starting catcher for the next couple years. Pinto would have been at best a backup for the next couple of years if not still at AAA. The Twins drafted five(?) catchers a couple of years ago. If Mauer had played out his career at catcher, it would have been one of those players who would be projected as the next franchise catcher, not Pinto.

Right now Pinto is not hitting. He is also pretty bad defensively. If he was hitting better, you could overlook his defensive lapses since he could contribute offensively. If your catcher can't hit, he should at least be able to contribute defensively. Right now, Fryer would be a better fit for this Twins team. Suzuki is playing well enough to start most of the games. Fryer is a good defensive catcher who can fill in while Pinto gets more time to develop his defensive skills at AAA. That is why Fryer is still on the 40 man roster, to provide defensive depth at catcher. It won't hurt his development to sit behind Suzuki and it will help Pinto to play more often at AAA to both work on his defense and get out of his current batting slump.

#37 DJL44

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 03:16 PM

Josmil Pinto has caught nearly 400 games at the major and minor league levels and is 25 years old. If he doesn't have the skill to catch at the major league level RIGHT NOW he's very unlikely to acquire it. This should be his peak age for athletic ability.

#38 Spikecurveball

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 03:19 PM

I think it's pretty simple. The manager's job is to try and win games with the 25 guys at his disposal. For the time being, Suzuki is hotter than Pinto. Secondly, I don't believe that the Twins are doing Pinto and Hicks any horrible disservice by having them on the bench with the big club. That part of it is a bit overblown IMHO. They are on the cusp and they will get there. Both are the club's next best options at their positions. I can't see tossing them in there in situations where Gardy clearly thinks the other guy gives the team a better chance to win. Maybe you do that in the minors but not in the bigs. Yes we are sort of in a pennant race and there are benefits to both of them being part of that while fighting for playing time and maybe in Hick's case generating a little fire in his belly every time Santana trots out to center field.

#39 Hosken Bombo Disco

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 03:19 PM

That's what AAA is for. Given that the Twins just signed Morales, we're no longer in a total rebuild mode, where you can give up games to develop players.


When was this?

#40 jokin

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 03:25 PM

When was this?


Ummm, that would be....never?