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Super 2 Cutoff

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#1 Willihammer

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 01:58 PM

If the Twins call up May and Meyer today and play them through the rest of the season, they will accrue 111 days of service time, is that correct? (last regular season game is on 9/28).

If that's right, then they are probably at least 10 days past the Super 2 cutoff point.

The Super 2 cutoff the past 5 years has been:


  • 2013: 2.122
  • 2012: 2.139
  • 2011: 2.146
  • 2010: 2.122
  • 2009: 2.139

Am I missing something? And if not, what are we waiting for?

#2 jokin

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 02:15 PM

[COLOR=#292929][FONT=Mercury SSm A]"One source indicates that the Super Two cutoff deadline is likely to be around June 10..."

[/FONT][/COLOR]http://www.mlbdailydish.com/2014/6/3/5776330/cotillos-latest-samardzija-mccarthy-shields-polanco-singleton-trade-mlb-baseball-deadline

The other problem is it seems the Twins FO has their heart set on feting their top prospects at the Futures Game.

#3 zenser

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 02:19 PM

The other problem is it seems the Twins FO has their heart set on feting their top prospects at the Futures Game.


Hmmm, every fifth day or one Sunday in July? I guess every fifth day seems more appealing to me.

#4 amjgt

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 02:34 PM

Hmmm, every fifth day or one Sunday in July? I guess every fifth day seems more appealing to me.

Probably one inning in that Sunday in July.

#5 spycake

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 05:50 PM

The super 2 criteria changed slightly in the most recent CBA, right? I think a few more guys will qualify.

#6 Seth Stohs

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 06:01 PM

The super 2 criteria changed slightly in the most recent CBA, right? I think a few more guys will qualify.


It's 22% instead of like 17%, but it's soon. There's really no way to know until the end of the year.

#7 Seth Stohs

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 06:03 PM

The other problem is it seems the Twins FO has their heart set on feting their top prospects at the Futures Game.


That's obviously true, but it's certainly not going to come at the expense of the big league club. In other words, the Futures Game is not the reason May or Meyer are not up now, and it won't be the reason in the next few weeks.

#8 Thrylos

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 06:10 PM

If you DFA Kubel for Morales, you got to Blackburn Correia and bullpen Deduno for Meyer and May, and not to forget Burton for Pino (and service time not an issue here.)

Makes sense, but...
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#9 Tibs

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 06:57 PM

Why isn't the super 2 a set date?
I couldn't be a player because of bad eyesight, so I decided to be an umpire instead.

#10 darin617

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 07:03 PM

[COLOR=#292929][FONT=Mercury SSm A]"One source indicates that the Super Two cutoff deadline is likely to be around June 10..."

[/FONT][/COLOR]http://www.mlbdailydish.com/2014/6/3/5776330/cotillos-latest-samardzija-mccarthy-shields-polanco-singleton-trade-mlb-baseball-deadline

The other problem is it seems the Twins FO has their heart set on feting their top prospects at the Futures Game.


That is completely wrong. Alex Meyer has already played in a Futures game with the Nationals.

#11 jokin

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 07:17 PM

That is completely wrong. Alex Meyer has already played in a Futures game with the Nationals.


If there is a restriction on the number of appearances a player can make in the Futures game, may I suggest you take up the issue with Terry Ryan, as he's the source of the information I posted?

#12 jokin

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 07:19 PM

That's obviously true, but it's certainly not going to come at the expense of the big league club. In other words, the Futures Game is not the reason May or Meyer are not up now, and it won't be the reason in the next few weeks.


Not sure how you can say that "it's certainly" with certainty.

#13 DuluthFan

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 08:56 PM

May and Meyer need to remain in AAA until the September roster expansion. These two pitchers need time to learn how to pitch. They do not need to do this at the expense of the major league team. Remember this was a team that wasn't expected to do much this year. Now that they are competitive with the players that they do have, they should be given every opportunity to see how far they can go. May and Meyer will have ample opportunity to earn a spot in the starting rotation next season.

If you prematurely advance these two pitchers that everyone is predicting to be future cornerstones of the rotation, you risk their development and the team's current play. Yes, they could replace Coreia, Deduno or Pelfrey right now. But what happens if you do that and they fail? If Coreia, Deduno and Pelfrey are not around, what would you have left to fall back on, a couple more AAA pitchers in Darnell, Johnson, Pino and Diamond. So you end up calling them up. Your AAA team would then have to call up AA pitchers who may not be ready for AAA. You would be back to where the Twins were the last two years, with no high level pitchers to call upon when injuries decimate the rotation.

Meyer is not even on the 40 man roster yet. He can play all season without needing to be added to the roster. If you wait until next season before adding him you will keep his 3 option years intact.

#14 darin617

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 09:32 PM

If there is a restriction on the number of appearances a player can make in the Futures game, may I suggest you take up the issue with Terry Ryan, as he's the source of the information I posted?


The way I see it the Futures Game is a one shot deal. Only a team like the Twins would not promote a player after succeeding throughout the Minors.

#15 Jeremy Nygaard

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 09:36 PM

I would never worry about the Super-2 deadline with pitchers. Ever. There's just too much that can happen, both injury-wise and through ineffectiveness. With pitchers I'd care more about that extra year of control (which is basically two starts at the beginning of a career) and leave them in the minors. At this point, though, there shouldn't be anything holding the Twins back from giving them a chance.

But of course, the Twins are consistently saying it's about "consistency".

Personally, pitchers get a finite amount of bullets... and I'd let them fly in the Show.

#16 darin617

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 09:37 PM

The Twins maybe need to take a page out of the Yankees old playbook. Just start trading your prospects for established players. If you are not going to reward players for their success swing a deal and get something now and win.

#17 Jeremy Nygaard

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 09:37 PM

The way I see it the Futures Game is a one shot deal. Only a team like the Twins would not promote a player after succeeding throughout the Minors.


Only it's not. And the Twins aren't alone.

If Buxton were healthy and the #1 prospect, you'd be ok with him not playing this year?

#18 Willihammer

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 09:41 PM

If you prematurely advance these two pitchers that everyone is predicting to be future cornerstones of the rotation, you risk their development and the team's current play. Yes, they could replace Coreia, Deduno or Pelfrey right now. But what happens if you do that and they fail? If Coreia, Deduno and Pelfrey are not around, what would you have left to fall back on, a couple more AAA pitchers in Darnell, Johnson, Pino and Diamond. So you end up calling them up. Your AAA team would then have to call up AA pitchers who may not be ready for AAA. You would be back to where the Twins were the last two years, with no high level pitchers to call upon when injuries decimate the rotation.

[attachment=1633:4884.attach]

#19 Willihammer

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 09:44 PM

Seriuosly though, you can't play so scared. The Twins aren't going to get the next Cy Young in a deal for Kevin Correia or Sam Deduno anyway.

Meyer and May are 24, they might not ever be more effective than they are now. They've had long MiLB careers, including a dozen or so starts in AAA. They'll be okay

Edited by Willihammer, 09 June 2014 - 09:46 PM.


#20 Jeremy Nygaard

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 09:50 PM

Your AAA team would then have to call up AA pitchers who may not be ready for AAA. You would be back to where the Twins were the last two years, with no high level pitchers to call upon when injuries decimate the rotation.


I wouldn't worry too much about that. Gilmartin, Dean and Vasquez could all make the move to AAA. They all played there last year.

In Fort Myers, Jason Wheeler is ready. Matt Tomshaw should move up. D.J. Baxendale has played the part of two season in NB (though he's struggled). There are also a handful of guys in their bullpen - Shibuya, Hermsen, Gruver (not to mention Melotakis and Boer) - that could transition back to that role without digging into CR's rotation (where Slegers could make his move up too).

#21 jokin

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 10:36 PM

I wouldn't worry too much about that. Gilmartin, Dean and Vasquez could all make the move to AAA. They all played there last year.

In Fort Myers, Jason Wheeler is ready. Matt Tomshaw should move up. D.J. Baxendale has played the part of two season in NB (though he's struggled). There are also a handful of guys in their bullpen - Shibuya, Hermsen, Gruver (not to mention Melotakis and Boer) - that could transition back to that role without digging into CR's rotation (where Slegers could make his move up too).


And possibly David Hurlbut and Tyler Jones from Ft Myers, as well (What the heck, even Berrios might be under consideration with one or two more lights-out outings- see accompanying story- http://twinsdaily.co...-be-a-pitcher-”).

Any worry about hollowing out pitching depth at the lower levels is completely overblown, IMO. Plus, there are always AAAA guys getting waived by other teams, who could be signed and thrown in to the mix if the absolute worst happened.

Edited by jokin, 09 June 2014 - 11:21 PM.


#22 JB_Iowa

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 07:23 AM

So from what Jeremy Nygaard and jokin are saying, the Twins are holding back pitchers at every level because they never promote anyone out of AAA??

:go:

#23 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 07:46 AM

May and Meyer need to remain in AAA until the September roster expansion.


Uh... No.

Trevor May is 24 years old and is dominating AAA hitters. This is his seventh (!) season as a minor league pitcher. He has 738 MiLB innings under his belt. It's time for him to try his hand against MLB batters.

I'm one of the more patient people on this board re: prospect development and promotion but even I can see that Trevor May's time has come. He needs to get the call. There's rotation space for him and maybe most importantly, he deserves that call. He has earned it.

#24 spycake

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 08:05 AM

[quote name='DuluthFan']May and Meyer need to remain in AAA until the September roster expansion. These two pitchers need time to learn how to pitch. They do not need to do this at the expense of the major league team. Remember this was a team that wasn't expected to do much this year. Now that they are competitive with the players that they do have, they should be given every opportunity to see how far they can go. May and Meyer will have ample opportunity to earn a spot in the starting rotation next season. [/QUOTE]

I'm all for not rushing prospects, but Meyer and May are both 24 years old. Neither has skipped any levels (May in fact has repeated levels, and has 738 career MiLB IP). Remember when Gibson was originally knocking on the door in 2011? Both Meyer and May are about a full year older than Gibson was at that time. Remember when Dozier came up in 2012 as an old-ish college player? May is just two months younger than Dozier was at that time. (Gibson and Dozier are also examples of how rookies can struggle, but also how most final adjustments need to be made at the MLB level regardless. There is an upper limit to the development process in AAA, and I suspect Meyer and May are close to it, given their demonstrated abilities.)

[quote name='DuluthFan']If you prematurely advance these two pitchers that everyone is predicting to be future cornerstones of the rotation, you risk their development and the team's current play. Yes, they could replace Coreia, Deduno or Pelfrey right now. But what happens if you do that and they fail? If Coreia, Deduno and Pelfrey are not around, what would you have left to fall back on, a couple more AAA pitchers in Darnell, Johnson, Pino and Diamond. So you end up calling them up. Your AAA team would then have to call up AA pitchers who may not be ready for AAA. You would be back to where the Twins were the last two years, with no high level pitchers to call upon when injuries decimate the rotation. [/QUOTE]

I haven't seen anyone advocate cutting Deduno, and many of us don't even want to cut Correia yet, just demote one or both to the bullpen. They would still be available to step in for another starter in the event of injury or ineffectiveness.

Actually, the presence of these two (and the potential return of Pelfrey) make this an ideal time to break in younger starters at the MLB level. Unless you plan to re-sign Correia or a similar pitcher for 2015, and guarantee Pelfrey a roster spot all winter, you have more potential veteran replacements for young starters now in 2014 than you may have in 2015.

[quote name='DuluthFan']Meyer is not even on the 40 man roster yet. He can play all season without needing to be added to the roster. If you wait until next season before adding him you will keep his 3 option years intact.[/QUOTE]

First, unless Pelfrey can restart his rehab and return to the active roster within the next 3 weeks (highly unlikely), he can safely move to the 60-day DL and open up a 40-man roster spot without us losing a player.

Second, if Meyer is added to the 40-man and sticks until the Sep. 1st roster expansion, he won't use an option and will still have all 3 heading into next spring. (And May of course has already used his option this year, so he can be recalled and demoted freely for the next few months with no future roster/contractual consequences.)

Finally, option years are great for younger players, role players, bullpen types, etc. But if you really need to option Alex Meyer in 2017 at age 27, it's probably not a big deal to simply shift him to the pen or expose him to waivers at that point.

Edited by spycake, 10 June 2014 - 08:14 AM.


#25 ScottyB

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 08:07 AM

No more than 2 guys from any team can play in the futures game. The Twins have multiple candidates - Vargas will probably be one, Meyer could be the second, I'd say May will be up within 2 weeks.

#26 jokin

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 08:10 AM

No more than 2 guys from any team can play in the futures game. The Twins have multiple candidates - Vargas will probably be one, Meyer could be the second, I'd say May will be up within 2 weeks.


Vargas will qualify for the world team, as would Berrios. Meyer and May could play on the US team. Seeing only 2 of those 4 will still be worth the price of admission.

Edited by jokin, 10 June 2014 - 08:13 AM.


#27 tobi0040

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 08:13 AM

Vargas will qualify for the world team, as would Berrios. Meyer and May could play on the US team.


It makes about as much sense to hold Meyer until July to pitch one inning in a meaningless game (for the second time) as it does to play me in the game.

#28 jokin

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 08:15 AM

It makes about as much sense to hold Meyer until July to pitch one inning in a meaningless game (for the second time) as it does to play me in the game.


Don't get me wrong, I would have had Meyer pitching in the bullpen over a month ago, but it is what it is...the Twins seem in no hurry to move him up. Perhaps with a 60-day DL move for Pelfrey he gets on the 40-man?

#29 Kirby_waved_at_me

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 08:17 AM

I hope that the aggressiveness that the front office showed in signing Morales is contagious and results in a very short fuse for the pitching staff.

#30 ScottyB

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 08:20 AM

If you move up Meyer before next season, it's one year earlier to free agency - that's what the Twins are thinking.