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Article: Twins Draft Preview: Trea Turner

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#1 Seth Stohs

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 01:51 AM

You can view the page at http://twinsdaily.co...iew-Trea-Turner

#2 diehardtwinsfan

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 10:19 AM

too much risk for the first pick. I'd much rather have Gordon, Jackson, or a half-dozen pitchers a head of him.

#3 twinsfanstreif

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 10:19 AM

I've always liked Turner and I don't get the concern, I think. His bat will be fine. The thing that's weird to me is that everyone (including the Twins apparently) are high on Gordon but to me he looks like a slower, less developed Turner. Maybe I'm just weird.

another note, Knoblauch was drafted in 89 and was helping us win a WS by 91, it'd be pretty sweet (and I'm aware it's highly unlikely) if we drafted Turner and he did the same!!!

#4 Dantes929

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 10:48 AM

[quote name='twinsfanstreif']I've always liked Turner and I don't get the concern, I think. His bat will be fine. The thing that's weird to me is that everyone (including the Twins apparently) are high on Gordon but to me he looks like a slower, less developed Turner. Maybe I'm just weird.

QUOTE] I don't know if you are weird or not but the thought struck me as well. Fine if you want to go with pitching but if you want to go with a shortstop why does Gordon rank ahead of Turner?

#5 Steve Lein

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 12:13 PM

Gordon ranks ahead of Turner (right now) for his bat and intangibles. Everything I've seen points to Turner being a bottom-of-the-order offensive contributor, while Gordon gets above-average marks in that regard (better swing, better contact ability, room for power to develop).

Gordon gets higher marks for his arm and instincts on defense as well.

Turner has him in the speed category, but Gordon rates as "Plus" there too.

#6 boney

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 12:21 PM

Last year I was hoping the Twins would have a chance to draft Turner this year. I would still love to end up with him, can't help it.

#7 oldguy10

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 12:38 PM

Will the front office rely strictly on their own judgment with Turner versus Gordon or will they turn elsewhere? I certainly hope the latter as I do with all other potential draft choices. I shudder to think of simply relying on Twins' scouting employees, don't all of us?

#8 Dantes929

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 01:16 PM

Gordon ranks ahead of Turner (right now) for his bat and intangibles. Everything I've seen points to Turner being a bottom-of-the-order offensive contributor, while Gordon gets above-average marks in that regard (better swing, better contact ability, room for power to develop).

Gordon gets higher marks for his arm and instincts on defense as well.

Turner has him in the speed category, but Gordon rates as "Plus" there too.

Thanks Steve. I hadn't looked too far on Gordon so didn't think he rated as well on what I read. Now I dug a little farther and he certainly does look good. But then the question is why did Seth pick Turner to profile when they just ran an article yesterday showing a consensus for Gordon? I guess you know a college kid has faced better pitchers and Turner has done very well in college but so few of these kids make it anyway I would go with the highest projected upside.

#9 Lonestar

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 01:21 PM

Most people have Gordon ranked ahead of Turner now. That's a function of momentum and scrutiny. Gordon is in his honeymoon period. Turner's honeymoon was after two great years in the ACC. Now he has taken a BABIP hit and people question his stance and he is not consistently an 80 runner.

Some people see Turner's speed and think of him as one dimensional. I see a guy who is great at putting his game changing speed into play. Some people rave about Gordon's arm even though MLB pipeline only gives him a 60. I remember Shawon Dunston.

Saying Gordon's hit/on-base tool is better than Turner's is rather silly since Turner has put up good to great numbers for 3 in the #2 college baseball conference and Gordon is still in high school. Turner's numbers are as good as Knoblauch's and that's before you adjust for the change in bats or environment (better pitching). Nothing about Knoblauch was bottom of the order until he lost his abiity to throw to first. The advantage Turner has over Knoblauch (why he would be drafted higher) is that he plays average SS -- not plus like they project for Gordon.

Fix Turner's stance and he is the guy you hope Gordon grows up to be, except he's whiter and faster.

What is this noise about intangibles?

Turner is more polarizing than most, but the truth is, after the top tier of Aiken and Rodon, you can throw a blanket over the next 8-10 guys and say pick one. And I would put Turner in that group with Gordon. Let's compare notes in 4 years.

#10 Dantes929

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 01:22 PM

Will the front office rely strictly on their own judgment with Turner versus Gordon or will they turn elsewhere? I certainly hope the latter as I do with all other potential draft choices. I shudder to think of simply relying on Twins' scouting employees, don't all of us?

They flamed out with Nishioka but at the time I thought the leading hitter in Japan was worth a flyer. Just didn't like giving up Hardy for the security blanket purposes with Casilla and Plouffe unproven in the infield also. Sano being in the top 5 prospects makes up for that boo boo, IMo. Twins are back for the moment at .500 and have the top rated minors system. Why, exactly, do you shudder? I shudder at the thought of the Wolves drafting the best guy. Twins, not so much.

#11 Dantes929

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 01:31 PM

Most people have Gordon ranked ahead of Turner now. That's a function of momentum and scrutiny. Gordon is in his honeymoon period. Turner's honeymoon was after two great years in the ACC. Now he has taken a BABIP hit and people question his stance and he is not consistently an 80 runner.

Some people see Turner's speed and think of him as one dimensional. I see a guy who is great at putting his game changing speed into play. Some people rave about Gordon's arm even though MLB pipeline only gives him a 60. I remember Shawon Dunston.

Saying Gordon's hit/on-base tool is better than Turner's is rather silly since Turner has put up good to great numbers for 3 in the #2 college baseball conference and Gordon is still in high school. Turner's numbers are as good as Knoblauch's and that's before you adjust for the change in bats or environment (better pitching). Nothing about Knoblauch was bottom of the order until he lost his abiity to throw to first. The advantage Turner has over Knoblauch (why he would be drafted higher) is that he plays average SS -- not plus like they project for Gordon.

Fix Turner's stance and he is the guy you hope Gordon grows up to be, except he's whiter and faster.

What is this noise about intangibles?

Turner is more polarizing than most, but the truth is, after the top tier of Aiken and Rodon, you can throw a blanket over the next 8-10 guys and say pick one. And I would put Turner in that group with Gordon. Let's compare notes in 4 years.

I like your take on it. Twins fans constantly point to the 1st round busts of the Twins as proof on incompetence but the truth is every team I looked at (central division plus Yankees and several others) have about the same history of busts far outweighing successes. As you alluded to, every 1st rounder is a potential Hall of Famer if you read their scouting report at their best but they are about 50 times more likely never to see a day in the majors than they are to be all stars. I won't 2nd guess much regardless of who they pick and who succeeds but there will definitely be a lot of people who will, especially 4 years from now.

#12 Steve Lein

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 01:34 PM

Thanks Steve. I hadn't looked too far on Gordon so didn't think he rated as well on what I read. Now I dug a little farther and he certainly does look good. But then the question is why did Seth pick Turner to profile when they just ran an article yesterday showing a consensus for Gordon?


Because I chose to write the profile for Gordon, haha! (coming in a few weeks)

Scouting Report: Power: 30, Hitting: 50, Arm: 60, Defense: 40, Speed: 40. "Line drive swing and shows good contact and on-base abilities. Double's power at his peak. Strong arm from 2B or the OF, stiff hands. Not a fast runner, but above average instincts on the bases. Skinny body doesn't look the part, but can sneak up on you. ACL surgery sapped much of his athleticism." (Probably)


#13 Seth Stohs

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 01:39 PM

Thanks Steve. I hadn't looked too far on Gordon so didn't think he rated as well on what I read. Now I dug a little farther and he certainly does look good. But then the question is why did Seth pick Turner to profile when they just ran an article yesterday showing a consensus for Gordon? I guess you know a college kid has faced better pitchers and Turner has done very well in college but so few of these kids make it anyway I would go with the highest projected upside.


Because we'll be doing profiles on 8-10 possibilities, guys that for one reason or another make some sense with the Twins. Shortstop remains (and will always likely be) a position of need and a position you'd want to take several players in the draft. Turner is a college guy who is having a very good serious year but not as great as his sophomore year. He has plus-plus speed, and he's not a slap hitter. He's rumored to go between 6-10, so I'd say he's worth discussing. Come back... I bet there may be a Gordon one coming in the near future.

#14 Steve Lein

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 01:43 PM

Most people have Gordon ranked ahead of Turner now. That's a function of momentum and scrutiny.


That is certainly a factor! I have plenty to say about your other comments, but I'd rather not write a majority of what would be included in his upcoming profile in a comment!

Scouting Report: Power: 30, Hitting: 50, Arm: 60, Defense: 40, Speed: 40. "Line drive swing and shows good contact and on-base abilities. Double's power at his peak. Strong arm from 2B or the OF, stiff hands. Not a fast runner, but above average instincts on the bases. Skinny body doesn't look the part, but can sneak up on you. ACL surgery sapped much of his athleticism." (Probably)


#15 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 01:45 PM

I shudder to think of simply relying on Twins' scouting employees, don't all of us?


Nope. The opposite, actually. This system is stacked top-to-bottom and the MLB club is playing .500 ball so far.

Since Adam Johnson, the Twins have a decent track record with their first pick of the draft:

2001 - Joe Mauer - 1st - Fantastic pick
2002 - Denard Span - 20th - Excellent pick
2003 - Matthew Moses - 21st - UGH
2004 - Trevor Plouffe - 20th - Decent pick
2005 - Matt Garza - 25th - Excellent pick
2006 - Chris Parmelee - 20th - Meh pick, jury still out
2007 - Ben Revere - 28th - Meh, maybe decent, pick
2008 - Aaron Hicks - 14th - Jury still out
2009 - Kyle Gibson - 22nd - Decent pick, jury still out
2010 - Alex Wimmers - 21st - Ugh, jury still out
2011 - Levi Michael - 30th - Ugh, jury still out
2012 - Byron Buxton - 2nd - Whoooooo!
2013 - Kohl Stewart - 4th - Looking good thus far

Sure, some of the Twins' supplemental round picks have been bad but you can say that about every team. The supplemental rounds are a crapshoot and while the Twins have badly missed on the Hunts and Bashores of the world, they've also scored big with the Perkins and Berrios of the world.

#16 Tibs

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 01:48 PM

The numbers are from 1984-1999, but a book put out by guys from Baseball Prospectus shows that college hitters drafted are 50% more likely to reach the majors than high schools at equivalent draft positions. The college hitters also provided a higher WAR on average. However, it appears that the WAR advantage of college hitters over high school hitters drafted in the top 100 shrunk as the 90s went on until it was a slight advantage.

With this in mind, it would seem to me that Turner is a safer pick than Gordon. I have always preferred Turner over Gordon, but I haven't seen either player play and haven't gone into much depth on their scouting reports.

Edited by Tibs, 21 May 2014 - 01:51 PM.

I couldn't be a player because of bad eyesight, so I decided to be an umpire instead.

#17 Seth Stohs

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 01:50 PM

Lonestar, as I was researching and learning more about Turner, I have many if not most of those thoughts that you have.

Believe me, it's not a knock on Gordon, but that's the risk/discussion between college guys who are three years older and have played against better competition and HS guys.

#18 cmb0252

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 02:42 PM

If we look only at competition a HS kid will never be able to compare to a college kid. Not just because of competition level but because of all the advantages that he gets from being in college. College kids have significantly better coaching staffs, have better equipment, better training facilities, and while they do play vs better competition they also have better players surrounding them.

Outside of speed and level of competition I think Gordon has Turner beat in almost every other category. Gordon has a significantly better arm, has better bat speed, profiles as a plus defensive SS, and let's not forget his strong bloodline. Don't get me wrong, Turner is a solid prospect and great example of how deep this draft is, but I see Gordon has better prospect.

#19 Lonestar

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 02:52 PM

Brock, Perkins was the 22nd pick in the first round, two after Plouffe.

Revere was a head scratcher at the time and a disappointment since we traded him, but we did trade him for Trevor May. And Vance Worley. And that was an incredibly weak draft.

#20 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 02:59 PM

Brock, Perkins was the 22nd pick in the first round, two after Plouffe.

Revere was a head scratcher at the time and a disappointment since we traded him, but we did trade him for Trevor May. And Vance Worley. And that was an incredibly weak draft.


Right. Was lazily including "anyone drafted after their first pick" with "supplemental round".

It's pretty eye-opening to sort drafts by WAR on BB-Ref. Guys like Plouffe, Parmelee, and Revere suddenly look like okay draft picks when you realize that only ~25-30 guys from each draft make the big leagues and post a positive WAR. All three of those guys rank between 10-20th in career WAR from their respective drafts. In the case of Plouffe, he might someday crack the top ten if he continues to post league-average numbers as a third baseman.

#21 twinsfanstreif

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 03:32 PM

Steve, I have to disagree with you on Gordon, his bat is a huge question mark with many saying he could be average at best. The same is to be said for Turner and Turner is less of a project with less of an arm but way better speed, I'd take him in a heartbeat over Gordon, I'm just really not sold on him, he reminds me of another guy I wasn't sold on but went high in Tim Beckham, at the time I said it was a huge mistake for TB to draft him over the safer/better pick of Buster Posey. I'm not saying Turner's gonna be Posey but I believe he is the better player

#22 Steve Lein

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 04:26 PM

Steve, I have to disagree with you on Gordon, his bat is a huge question mark with many saying he could be average at best.


That's why discussions like this are so great. I've read a ton on both players, and the consensus I've seen is definitely that Gordon's bat has more potential. That doesn't mean that will happen, of course.

Scouting Report: Power: 30, Hitting: 50, Arm: 60, Defense: 40, Speed: 40. "Line drive swing and shows good contact and on-base abilities. Double's power at his peak. Strong arm from 2B or the OF, stiff hands. Not a fast runner, but above average instincts on the bases. Skinny body doesn't look the part, but can sneak up on you. ACL surgery sapped much of his athleticism." (Probably)


#23 Monkeypaws

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 04:29 PM

Now we are into the nitty gritty of BPA. If there is a plus or plus-plus tool I want the Twins to focus on on, it aint speed or off-speed stuff, it's hitting, with hit for power a close second.

So that'd be Jackson?