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#1 Hosken Bombo Disco

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Posted 18 May 2014 - 03:23 PM

So I'm listening to the television broadcast (Dick&Bert) and they are talking about the upcoming roster move to be made following today's game. (Dick suggested it might be Chris Herrmann.)

In the top of the 8th, Dick said something to the effect: "Twins are carrying 13 pitchers, but teams across the league are struggling with pitching and carrying 13 pitchers, unless you are Oakland or Detroit. So it's not just the Twins." And then Bert threw in the obligatory "no pitch counts in my day" observation.

So anyway, I actually went to mlb.com and checked the 25 man rosters in the American league as of today (I didn't check the NL) for how many pitchers teams are carrying.

Here is the list of teams besides the Twins carrying 13 pitchers:

- New York,
- Cleveland.

Two other teams.

The Rays, who have actually played the season without 3 of their 5 starting pitchers this season, are still carrying 12 pitchers. http://rays.mlb.com/...ive.jsp?c_id=tb

Not trying to start a "rip management" thread, just trying to point out how, in my belief, narratives and wishes have genuinely trumped reality inside this organization. Lots of folks on these threads (including me) have become instinctively skeptical of most things this organization says and does, and I guess I'm just pointing out one more reason here for why that is so.

#2 CRArko

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Posted 18 May 2014 - 03:28 PM

I find being skeptical about anything anybody says (including myself) to be a pretty healthy outlook on life.
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#3 jorgenswest

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Posted 18 May 2014 - 03:56 PM

Twins moved to 12 pitchers today. Hopefully they will remain at 12 and platoon with the outfield corner/DH roles.

Tonkin needs to return this year. His development is more valuable than keeping Guerrier around. At some point they need to make a decision on Pelfrey. I hope they stay at 12 when that day comes.

#4 Monkeypaws

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Posted 18 May 2014 - 04:13 PM

12 pitchers is enough if you manage them well - I was watching the Twins Boston day game the other day, and Burton and Fien threw back to back 6 pitch innings. Fien was replaced for Perkins, which I can understand, but why replace Burton after 6 pitches?

I am keen on efficiency, and the Twins and pitching is a wasteful process.

Gardy burns through his bullpen like a heavy smoker through a pack of Chesterfields.

#5 Joe A. Preusser

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Posted 18 May 2014 - 04:25 PM

12 pitchers is enough if you manage them well - I was watching the Twins Boston day game the other day, and Burton and Fien threw back to back 6 pitch innings. Fien was replaced for Perkins, which I can understand, but why replace Burton after 6 pitches?

I am keen on efficiency, and the Twins and pitching is a wasteful process.

Gardy burns through his bullpen like a heavy smoker through a pack of Chesterfields.


I can't agree, a manager has to with matchups he likes. If he went the other way he'd be criticized for leaving pitchers in for too long.

#6 jokin

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Posted 18 May 2014 - 04:32 PM

So I'm listening to the television broadcast (Dick&Bert) and they are talking about the upcoming roster move to be made following today's game. (Dick suggested it might be Chris Herrmann.)

In the top of the 8th, Dick said something to the effect: "Twins are carrying 13 pitchers, but teams across the league are struggling with pitching and carrying 13 pitchers, unless you are Oakland or Detroit. So it's not just the Twins." And then Bert threw in the obligatory "no pitch counts in my day" observation.

So anyway, I actually went to mlb.com and checked the 25 man rosters in the American league as of today (I didn't check the NL) for how many pitchers teams are carrying.

Here is the list of teams besides the Twins carrying 13 pitchers:

- New York,
- Cleveland.

Two other teams.

The Rays, who have actually played the season without 3 of their 5 starting pitchers this season, are still carrying 12 pitchers. http://rays.mlb.com/...ive.jsp?c_id=tb

Not trying to start a "rip management" thread, just trying to point out how, in my belief, narratives and wishes have genuinely trumped reality inside this organization. Lots of folks on these threads (including me) have become instinctively skeptical of most things this organization says and does, and I guess I'm just pointing out one more reason here for why that is so.


Well stated. The "13 pitchers becoming the norm myth" has been become yet another addition to the "Twins Way Talking Points" and fully reflective of the increased importance in the Twins organization of "management of the message".... that is then dutifully and regularly reiterated, generally with little skepticism, by both the on-air and many of the scribe journalists.

Re: In what other media market around the League could the Twins have gotten away without blanket excoriation regarding the Bartlett & CF fiascoes- not after the fact, but before and during? The President of the Twins, not satisfied with by and large keeping the media in check, actually took to Twitter to obliquely attack his own fan base for questioning a strange decision, and what soon proved to be a colossal unforced error.

#7 jokin

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Posted 18 May 2014 - 04:41 PM

I can't agree, a manager has to with matchups he likes. If he went the other way he'd be criticized for leaving pitchers in for too long.


By this line of reasoning, then if the manager sees more matchups he likes, shouldn't he consider going to a permanent 14 man staff? The onus is on management to have a pitching staff of 12 with an SP staff that can pitch 6+ innings consistently, plus a relief corps of 7 that contains multiple arms that can pitch multiple innings- again, they can roster their "13th pitcher" at Rochester with proper roster option exchanges.

Monkeypaws is right, Gardy somehow unfathomably, got himself into a bullpen predicament after getting 3 consecutive off-days just a little over a week ago, forcing him to roster 14 pitchers and one OF- by foolishly burning pitcher after pitcher for no comparative advantage.

#8 Monkeypaws

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Posted 18 May 2014 - 04:45 PM

I can't agree, a manager has to with matchups he likes. If he went the other way he'd be criticized for leaving pitchers in for too long.


I think there are too many 1 inning relievers. If a guy mows through an inning on a handfull of pitches, let him roll. That keeps another guy fresh for the next day when your starter craps the bed. I don't think in any way that game had to do with matchups, especially replacing a righty with another righty.

#9 Twins Twerp

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Posted 18 May 2014 - 04:52 PM

Well stated. The "13 pitchers becoming the norm myth" has been become yet another addition to the "Twins Way Talking Points" and fully reflective of the increased importance in the Twins organization of "management of the message".... that is then dutifully and regularly reiterated, generally with little skepticism, by both the on-air and many of the scribe journalists.

Re: In what other media market around the League could the Twins have gotten away without blanket excoriation regarding the Bartlett & CF fiascoes- not after the fact, but before and during? The President of the Twins, not satisfied with by and large keeping the media in check, actually took to Twitter to obliquely attack his own fan base for questioning a strange decision, and what soon proved to be a colossal unforced error.


Colossal? Pretty easy to attack in retrospect, but colossal? Colossal would be trading a young catcher for a bad closer (btw a catcher that hasn't been healthy since the trade), but the Bartlett decision was a mistake, not "a colossal unforced error." I am going to go ahead and assume you were using hyperbole to hammer home your point.

I know you are angry about the centerfield position, but not having Alex Pressely, whose OPS is a robust .593, is the only lasting problem with the Bartle "colossal" mistake (btw Aaron Hicks is OPSing .596). In fact, we may have come out on top as we have now ended up with Sam Fuld, who before the concussion, was OPSing .674 with better defense than APress.

Dare I say the trade off of Fuld for Pressly is "colossal awesomeness?"

#10 jokin

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Posted 18 May 2014 - 05:37 PM

Colossal? Pretty easy to attack in retrospect, but colossal? Colossal would be trading a young catcher for a bad closer (btw a catcher that hasn't been healthy since the trade), but the Bartlett decision was a mistake, not "a colossal unforced error." I am going to go ahead and assume you were using hyperbole to hammer home your point.

I know you are angry about the centerfield position, but not having Alex Pressely, whose OPS is a robust .593, is the only lasting problem with the Bartle "colossal" mistake (btw Aaron Hicks is OPSing .596). In fact, we may have come out on top as we have now ended up with Sam Fuld, who before the concussion, was OPSing .674 with better defense than APress.

Dare I say the trade off of Fuld for Pressly is "colossal awesomeness?"


Yes, it was colossal. And Pressly is still on the team in Rochester. And Fuld should have been claimed, whether or not Presley was no longer with the team, the club has desperately needed to add to depth at that position for the last 18 months- clearly Fuld was an upgrade, but a fortunate, desperate and downright lucky upgrade, not one they anticipated or game-planned.

There are some who can try and revisionize what happened with Bartlett, but yes, it was a colossal mistake that a veteran management group should have easily forseen was likely going to blow up in their faces. It cost them not only a couple of competent, but not good, players at a premium position, it cost them development time for Danny Santana at SS (which he desperately needs), and created losses and reduced the chances to win multiple games already.

#11 Sconnie

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Posted 18 May 2014 - 05:37 PM

Colossal? Pretty easy to attack in retrospect, but colossal? Colossal would be trading a young catcher for a bad closer (btw a catcher that hasn't been healthy since the trade), but the Bartlett decision was a mistake, not "a colossal unforced error." I am going to go ahead and assume you were using hyperbole to hammer home your point.

I know you are angry about the centerfield position, but not having Alex Pressely, whose OPS is a robust .593, is the only lasting problem with the Bartle "colossal" mistake (btw Aaron Hicks is OPSing .596). In fact, we may have come out on top as we have now ended up with Sam Fuld, who before the concussion, was OPSing .674 with better defense than APress.

Dare I say the trade off of Fuld for Pressly is "colossal awesomeness?"

Oh no, colossal is accurate, and it's not the trade off, it's the subtraction by subtraction. They started with no 4th outfielder, brought up a 4th outfielder from triple A, then lost the depth they could have held by DFAing him instead of moving the heir apparent to triple A (who had options and was not ready for the bigs for the second season in a row) and platooning Mastro and Fuld until Hicks proved he was ready against triple A.

Now we get attacks against a guy from management in the media for things that should have been established by the management long ago.

Make no mistake. The Twins are, just like every other sports franchise and large business in the world, using media to make their case. They should, it's what good organizations do.

but just because they are using the right tactic, doesn't mean they are using it correctly or wisely, just like the 40 man roster.

#12 Hosken Bombo Disco

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Posted 18 May 2014 - 05:43 PM

I find being skeptical about anything anybody says (including myself) to be a pretty healthy outlook on life.


touche -- though I'm a bit skeptical you'd be skeptical of everything :)

#13 CRArko

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Posted 18 May 2014 - 05:44 PM

touche -- though I'm a bit skeptical you'd be skeptical of everything :)


I doubt that.
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#14 JB_Iowa

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Posted 18 May 2014 - 05:46 PM

Why listen to what listen to what Dick & Bert say? Really, about the only reason I can see is to hear what message management wants to promote at the time.

How often do they really offer new insight? How often do you learn anything from them?

Either I mute the sound or just hit the mental ignore button.

#15 Kwak

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Posted 18 May 2014 - 07:51 PM

Adding pitchers does add matchups--for Twins pitchers--but at the expense of Twins hitters. The extra RPs are only used in the late innings, but the extra position players can be used at the start as well near the end of a game. Couple that with 'the three catcher rule", and the manager is truly limited in "matchups" and resting tired or struggling position players in order to get a "favorable matchup" for the RP--which can be negated if the opponents use a pinch-hitter!

#16 stringer bell

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Posted 18 May 2014 - 09:20 PM

If a guy throws one six-pitch inning, shouldn't he be eligible to pitch the next day? One-inning guys should be able to pitch two days in a row and as much as four out of five. That is what Perkins has done in the last five days. I don't think Gardy's bullpen usage is masterful, but it isn't that bad. He does seem to want to hold on to a security blanket of an extra guy out there who won't work for several days, and I don't mean the long man.