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Pirates Prospects: Worley Back on Track

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#1 Seth Stohs

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 11:31 AM

http://www.piratespr...m-benedict.html

Last week, Vance Worley had a successful start for the Indianapolis Indians, the AAA affiliate of the Pittsburgh Pirates. The team had sent him to Extended Spring Training to stretch him out, but also to get his mechanics cleaned up.

I don't know that I agree with his comments about not being given a real chance this spring, but it is an interesting article.

#2 jorgenswest

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 01:06 PM

The signing of Pelfrey probably did close out reasonable chances of making it this spring. He didn't make very good use of his limited opportunities and passed through waivers. The Twins weren't the only ones who did not see the value. I do think the Twins should have given him the year in AAA to see if he might make it as a reliever. They could have made room.

Ray Searage and the Pirates may have the skill to get the talent out of his arm. He could not have gone to a better place.

#3 Thrylos

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 02:27 PM

If the Pirates do to Worley what they did to Liriano, there would be no valid excuse to keep Rick Anderson around. Maybe people might start realizing that the Twins' starting pitching has been stinking all these years because of the pitching coach...
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#4 Bsharpp

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 02:41 PM

Obviously, Worley was terrible last year and this spring. But, they gave up a #1 draft pick for him and another guy who may never make it. He cleared waivers. Why not do everything you can to get something out of the trade? Why couldn't they send him to extended spring training like the Pirates did? The Twins give up on guys to soon: Carlos Gomez, etc. They create roster crushes by trying to keep some old wreck like Jason Bartlett. They should never have let Presley go. Chances are he can hit more than .160. I like Terry Ryan, but the Twins are still making poor decisions. Gardenhire seems to be an idiot, and Rob Antony is an executive. He shouldn't be evaluating talent.

#5 TheLeviathan

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 03:43 PM

He was never given a chance from the moment they resigned Pelfrey and retained Correia going into the season. Perception of opportunity matters for players and the Twins set up a scenario in which there was basically no real opportunity for a number of key players.

There should be a 100%, resounding condemnation from all Twins fans about this team's pitching coach if this happens again.

#6 big dog

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 03:54 PM

If the Pirates do to Worley what they did to Liriano, there would be no valid excuse to keep Rick Anderson around. Maybe people might start realizing that the Twins' starting pitching has been stinking all these years because of the pitching coach...


Liriano's got a 4.64 ERA and a 1.45 WHIP this year. Worley might be able to accomplish that, at least in the National League. Doesn't seem like such a big deal to me...

#7 kab21

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 08:04 PM

this thread is funny.

#8 Twins Twerp

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 08:28 PM

Worley was worse than terrible...he sucked. One article does not mean he is back...he still sucks and likely will not be back in the bigs. Liriano always had the stuff but dont tell me his faults were because of rick anderson.

One more thing on worley...dude is a crybaby. He never took responsibility in minnesota even blaming the wind at one point. Sounds like he is the same guy saying he never got a chance...newsflash "vanimal," if you would have showed any signs of being even a AAAA guy we would have kept you. More like excuse-imal or 87downthepipeimal

#9 TKGuy

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 08:42 PM

He's in Aaa, let's see him back in the majors before we start throwing Anderson under the bus

#10 chuchadoro

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 04:04 AM

"I was in some situations where I did not have some success and ended up in the minor leagues."

Beautifully understated comment by Vance regarding his 2013 performance. Yup, Worley's awful season was due to circumstances beyond his control and not because he was the suckiest suck that ever sucked.
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#11 iTwins

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 08:04 AM

"I was in some situations where I did not have some success and ended up in the minor leagues."

Beautifully understated comment by Vance regarding his 2013 performance. Yup, Worley's awful season was due to circumstances beyond his control and not because he was the suckiest suck that ever sucked.


I thought the same thing. "In some situations where I did not have some success". Really? Bud you were the equivalent of a pitching machine on the mound for MONTHS in 2013 then you looked just as bad in the spring. You were given quite a few opportunities.

Say what you want about Pelfrey, but at least after he turns in a clunker he calls it like it was. "I sucked", "I need to be better" - etc. This wishy-washy, not really owning your flaws attitude drives me bonkers.

#12 Joe A. Preusser

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 08:18 AM

I wish him well but if he turns it around it won't be because Pitt has a better pitching coach, It will be because Worley takes responsibility and does some intense mental and physical self analysis on why he can't translate his BP session success to live game situations.

My least favorite broad fan trend is the tendency to blame the coaches when the player fails, yet give all the praise to the player when he succeeds. These two though processes are not congruent.

#13 TheLeviathan

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 08:28 AM

He's in Aaa, let's see him back in the majors before we start throwing Anderson under the bus


To be fair, Anderson should already be under the bus. Can you really blame people for trying to find more reasons to get him there?

#14 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 08:31 AM

It's one start. Not a lot to judge at this point.

But if Worley comes back and is a successful MLB pitcher in any way, Anderson should lose his job.

#15 Boom Boom

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 08:35 AM

If anything he got more of a chance here than he deserved.

The last I saw of Vanimal he was getting clubbed around for something like 30 runs in a Spring Training game. Maybe his mechanics can work themselves out if he loses some of the David Wells-like doughiness.

#16 Boom Boom

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 08:36 AM

It's one start. Not a lot to judge at this point.

But if Worley comes back and is a successful MLB pitcher in any way, Anderson should lose his job.


I could make the argument that Anderson should have lost his job already, regardless of what Worley does.

#17 TKGuy

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 08:54 AM

This sounds familiar to the TK era, annual call to dump Dick Such. As long as Gardy is here, I bet Andy will be here also. So does Andy get credit for Phil Hughes' success so far?

#18 TheLeviathan

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 09:00 AM

This sounds familiar to the TK era, annual call to dump Dick Such. As long as Gardy is here, I bet Andy will be here also. So does Andy get credit for Phil Hughes' success so far?


Probably, let's see how it goes. The issue I take with this is that Worley wouldn't be the first clear failure by Anderson, it would just be one more in a growing list. Hughes might be one of the first true starter successes in a long while.

#19 SpiritofVodkaDave

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 09:12 AM

I'm not sure how you can place blame on the Twins for Worley, they had him for over a year and he did squat for them, people can bemoan the fact that we signed Pelfrey all day long, but the fact is if Worley actually pitched even halfway decently he would have earned a roster spot (just like DeDuno and Gibson)

FWIW: Liriano is in classic Liriano form again.
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#20 SpiritofVodkaDave

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 09:13 AM

Probably, let's see how it goes. The issue I take with this is that Worley wouldn't be the first clear failure by Anderson, it would just be one more in a growing list. Hughes might be one of the first true starter successes in a long while.


Who are the other failures?
Garza pitched well when he was here.
Loshe pitched pretty well when he was here.
Dickey...knuckleballer
Liriano- Is who we always knew he was (even if people like me didn't want to admit)
Worley- Let's see him actually produce before we start jumping off bridges.
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#21 PseudoSABR

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 09:17 AM

it's one AAA start. nothing to judge at this point.

fify

#22 nicksaviking

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 09:23 AM

Funny thing is, I don't know that I would blame Anderson much for Worley. It's not like they worked together much. Worley was new to the system pitched terribly, had some DL time and was demoted to Rochester all before the end of May.

Though I'm of the opinion that Anderson certainly would not have fixed what ailed Worley. He needs to go. When 90% of the pitchers you bring into the system see their K% go in the toilet, something just isn't right.

And as much as I don't care for the guy, Worley is right, he didn't get much of an opportunity this spring. He was out of the running for the starter gig just about as soon as he reported to camp and then was rarely used in the pen.

#23 TheDean

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 09:24 AM

It's one halfway decent start in AAA. Don't forget, he threw 3 CGs in Rochester last year, and 1 was a shutout. He has the potential to dominate AAA hitting...sometimes. Let's start pointing fingers when he's got 8 starts in MLB and an ERA in the sub 7.00 range.

#24 TheLeviathan

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 10:29 AM

Who are the other failures?
Garza pitched well when he was here.
Loshe pitched pretty well when he was here.
Dickey...knuckleballer
Liriano- Is who we always knew he was (even if people like me didn't want to admit)
Worley- Let's see him actually produce before we start jumping off bridges.


It's the strikeout declines, the fact that we'd had awful pitching for what seems like eons now, and the fact that pitchers never seem to be able to maintain their success under his guidance.

He's long overdue to be fired, whatever ammo adds to that is fine by me.

#25 Hosken Bombo Disco

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 10:40 AM

I wish him well but if he turns it around it won't be because Pitt has a better pitching coach, It will be because Worley takes responsibility and does some intense mental and physical self analysis on why he can't translate his BP session success to live game situations.

My least favorite broad fan trend is the tendency to blame the coaches when the player fails, yet give all the praise to the player when he succeeds. These two though processes are not congruent.


I agree with the first part about Worley.

The second part can be argued. I think it's been just the opposite here lately.

Bruno seems to be an asset. Dozier credits him for his power stroke. Twins are taking great quantities of bases on balls which have led to some game-making rallies. Bruno never struck me as a keen baseball intellect but if he's able to connect with the players, all the better. Gardy and Andy are past their freshness date. Those guys are in their 13th year and that was the year Ryan said he burned out and thus retired. It didn't surprise me that they were unable to get through to Worley though like you said, I think Worley himself was the problem.. Hoping Bruno can get these guys (Plouffe Kubel Cola) hitting again quick though.

#26 gunnarthor

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 10:59 AM

It's the strikeout declines, the fact that we'd had awful pitching for what seems like eons now, and the fact that pitchers never seem to be able to maintain their success under his guidance.

He's long overdue to be fired, whatever ammo adds to that is fine by me.


I tend to think coaches are overrated both ways. Give Anderson a good group of pitchers and the Twins will end up pretty good. From 02-08, the Twins finished top 5 or better every year in ERA+ (leading once and finishing second twice) except one and from 02-10 they were better than league avg every year. They've been below league avg from 11-13 (and will probably finish below it again this year). Obviously, having pitching staffs fronted by Santana and Radke helps a lot but the team got some pretty nice years out of guys like Lohse, Silva, Danny Reyes, Matt Guerrier, Rincon, Slowey, Baker, Everyday Eddie etc. Not all of those guys were considered good but several left the Twins for big money deals and played worse after they left. Does a guy like Anderson help a guy like Deduno or help Perkins transition to the pen? I'm not sure. Is he hurting Gibson? I'm not sure.

I do think that coaches have a small overall effect but that some coaches can have huge impact on individual players (Jim Thome credits Charlie Manual for teaching him a timing sequence that let his power play up would probably be one extreme end of that). Maybe Anderson's "pitch to contact" stuff got in Liriano's head (although Liriano is back to his old tricks this year so I doubt it). The future of the Twins pitching is Hughes, Gibson, May, Meyer, Perkins and Nolasco. I don't really think Anderson's fate should be tied to guys like Scott Diamond or Liam Hendriks or Cole De Vries. When given decent talent, I tend to think they've been a bit better than expected.

#27 mike wants wins

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 11:52 AM

Worely was terrible here. He got what he deserved, a chance with another team. Wonder what other trades/assessments that scout in charge of that one has done......
Lighten up Francis....

#28 mike wants wins

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 11:54 AM

If a coach isn't, you know, making players better.....what is the coach's job? Outside of Hughes, who has been better when they came here or up from AAA in the last 5 years?
Lighten up Francis....

#29 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 12:45 PM

If a coach isn't, you know, making players better.....what is the coach's job? Outside of Hughes, who has been better when they came here or up from AAA in the last 5 years?


Sam Deduno.

Lots of bullpen guys.

While I think Anderson has had success in the past and continues to get good performances out of his bullpens, it's hard to say anything positive about his rotations over the past few years.

Sure, part of that is talent. The Twins haven't given him anything to work with in recent years. Still, it's hard to excuse just how awful the rotation has been over the past three seasons.

#30 gunnarthor

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 12:50 PM

If a coach isn't, you know, making players better.....what is the coach's job? Outside of Hughes, who has been better when they came here or up from AAA in the last 5 years?


Pavano. Deduno. Correa had his best season last year. Fein and Burton both revitalized their careers here. Liriano had his best season in that time frame (and arguably his worst). Ditto for Baker and Blackburn in that time frame. I'm not sure how many people thought Duensing would have this good of a career when he came up in 09. Which is part of the problem with grading coaches. That Duensing has been basically a 100 ERA+, 1 WAR/season relief pitcher a positive or a negative on Anderson? Nobody is denying that the team has been bad since 2011 but is our pitching bad b/c Anderson can't get better results from De Vries, Hendriks, Albers or have they been bad b/c the team is starting De Vries, Hendriks and Albers?

I tend to think that, over the course of his time with the Twins, the Twins have had more pitchers over perform expectations than under perform. Joe Mays led the AL in ERA+ once. Milton was an all star. Silva got nearly 50m in free agency when he left us. Blackburn managed two 2 WAR seasons. Reyes, Guerrier, Fein, Burton were all good reclamation projects. Baker was never a bigtime prospect but had a decent little career. Everyday Eddie, Nathan and Perkins all became all-star type closers under Anderson without having previous closing experience (which bucked the trend). But I tend to think it's more talent than coaching but a coach might be able to help certain types of players more than others. I don't know.