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#41 cmathewson

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 09:12 PM

If Nunez really is 100%, I don't think Santana will have a chance for anyone to jump off his bandwagon. Judging from today, there are holes in his game that need refinements, he still has a ways to go to just simply be handed the job. When the roster finally returns to normal, I would surmise that the Eduardos will share the SS job until they show they can't hack it.


Gardy might try him. But one game with Gibson on the mound and seven hits through the left side of the infield and he'll be back where he belongs, in a utility role.
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#42 jokin

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 09:26 PM

Gardy might try him. But one game with Gibson on the mound and seven hits through the left side of the infield and he'll be back where he belongs, in a utility role.


Gardy isn't exactly on Santana's bandwagon yet, accurately pointed out his costly SS shortcomings in the postgame presser- prolly comes down to picking yer' poison.

Edited by jokin, 08 May 2014 - 09:30 PM.


#43 Mike Sixel

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 09:33 PM

Glad they moved these two off the team. Would love Santana to just get the year now, to see what he is. That's what a rebuilding team does.....give YOUNG guys a chance.

One of the best opening day rosters in years. Now go get 'em.


#44 jokin

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 09:38 PM

Glad they moved these two off the team. Would love Santana to just get the year now, to see what he is. That's what a rebuilding team does.....give YOUNG guys a chance.


Yeah, it felt more like 2 mercy killings than anything. P-Flo would have been gone at least a week ago if not for Nunez's injury. In addition to Santana getting a chance, I wouldn't have minded seeing Vargas filling the breach in the bat department, he had 2 more hits tonight and he's been on fire since April 21.

#45 cmathewson

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 09:40 PM

Gardy isn't exactly on Santana's bandwagon yet, accurately pointed out his costly SS shortcomings in the postgame presser- prolly comes down to picking yer' poison.


Using the media for coaching of young kids--one of the least endearing traits of this manager. The kid makes three great plays and hits the ball hard a few times in one game, and Gardy focuses on a low feed to second on a successful DP, or some such nonesense.

Another unflatering side to this manager: how volatile his opinions are. Want a different opinion from Gardy? Wait 24 hours. Last week he said Escobar would start at short for a while. How long did that last? Two games. As soon as it was convenient, he put Esco at third and Florimon at short. Esco did great in those two games, but he couldn't wait to get Florimon back out there.

Whatever they do with Santana, you don't let a 23 year old with his tools sit. If he's not starting up here, send him down to start in Rochester. Don't bring him up to sit on the bench. I for one think he's the most talented shortstop in the organization. It'll take time for him to develop, but the sooner they start, the sooner they'll have something.

And Chief, I don't doubt the general public will complain about him. That's nothing new. They have unrealistic expectations.
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#46 jokin

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 09:52 PM

Using the media for coaching of young kids--one of the least endearing traits of this manager. The kid makes three great plays and hits the ball hard a few times in one game, and Gardy focuses on a low feed to second on a successful DP, or some such nonesense.

Another unflatering side to this manager: how volatile his opinions are. Want a different opinion from Gardy? Wait 24 hours. Last week he said Escobar would start at short for a while. How long did that last? Two games. As soon as it was convenient, he put Esco at third and Florimon at short. Esco did great in those two games, but he couldn't wait to get Florimon back out there.

Whatever they do with Santana, you don't let a 23 year old with his tools sit. If he's not starting up here, send him down to start in Rochester. Don't bring him up to sit on the bench. I for one think he's the most talented shortstop in the organization. It'll take time for him to develop, but the sooner they start, the sooner they'll have something.

And Chief, I don't doubt the general public will complain about him. That's nothing new. They have unrealistic expectations.


Santana's problems were more than a stray nonsensical miscue- Gardy accurately commented less on the specifics (which were obvious to a trained eye) and more on how he must adjust to the speed of the game at this level. These are things that can be remedied in time, but, you're absolutely right, he has to play to address them. And he shouldn't be shagging fly balls in the OF or sitting on the bench days on end, as Gardy had him doing when he first was called up. He needs to be playing every day, at SS, building up the reps and the muscle memory- and developing a more discriminating eye at the plate- he has the tools to be the perfect leadoff hitter if he can just get on base at a little higher rate.

#47 LaBombo

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 10:15 PM

I'll be surprised if everyone is still on the Santana bandwagon a month from now.

But I've been wrong before, hope to be again in this case.


Sounds exactly what I would say about this. Sorry.

#48 Sconnie

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 08:43 AM

Sounds exactly what I would say about this. Sorry.

You are right. He's not ready to be up, but he was moved out of necessity. Since he's up, and hasn't failed yet. He's a valuable prospect and needs to play, and I would like to see him play every day at MLB SS until he falters, then give him the laundry list things to work on in AAA. Hopefully when he goes down to AAA, he's hungry to come back to the bigs and forces the issue quickly.

#49 Sconnie

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 08:57 AM

Santana's problems were more than a stray nonsensical miscue- Gardy accurately commented less on the specifics (which were obvious to a trained eye) and more on how he must adjust to the speed of the game at this level. These are things that can be remedied in time, but, you're absolutely right, he has to play to address them. And he shouldn't be shagging fly balls in the OF or sitting on the bench days on end, as Gardy had him doing when he first was called up. He needs to be playing every day, at SS, building up the reps and the muscle memory- and developing a more discriminating eye at the plate- he has the tools to be the perfect leadoff hitter if he can just get on base at a little higher rate.

My concern is more addressing the rookies issues with the media. A business manager is trained to Praise in Public, Punish in Private. This doesn't really work for the established pros, but a necessity for the rookies. The rookies have bigger things to work on than dealing with the media.

#50 Sconnie

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 09:05 AM

Gardy might try him. But one game with Gibson on the mound and seven hits through the left side of the infield and he'll be back where he belongs, in a utility role.

I'm with Jokin, I think Escobar has supplanted Florimon and Nunez, if healthy, has taken over utility and PH.

#51 Riverbrian

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 09:13 AM

Run with Escobar while he is hot. Be prepared for a cool down but run with Escobar while he is hot.

#52 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 09:19 AM

Run with Escobar while he is hot. Be prepared for a cool down but run with Escobar while he is hot.


He can't be worse than Florimon.

As much consternation as there has been over centerfield, I don't understand why people haven't been more critical of shortstop, which was the glaring flaw of the roster going into the season in my opinion.

The Opening Day shortstop had an OPS+ of 0 over 74 PAs. By comparison, Aaron Hicks looks like Barry Bonds next to that guy.

#53 DJL44

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 09:22 AM

I'd say Santana has the tools to be a good #9 hitter. He's never going to have a .400 OBP but he could produce just enough with the bat and have some speed. I agree he belongs in AAA and Escobar needs to be the starting SS. Nunez grades out worse at SS than Dozier or Plouffe.

#54 Mike Sixel

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 09:23 AM

He can't be worse than Florimon.

As much consternation as there has been over centerfield, I don't understand why people haven't been more critical of shortstop, which was the glaring flaw of the roster going into the season in my opinion.

The Opening Day shortstop had an OPS+ of 0 over 74 PAs. By comparison, Aaron Hicks looks like Barry Bonds next to that guy.



Well, in fairness to people not being all over SS....we had many threads on Drew as you may recall.

One of the best opening day rosters in years. Now go get 'em.


#55 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 09:28 AM

Well, in fairness to people not being all over SS....we had many threads on Drew as you may recall.


Sure, through the offseason... But as we neared and passed Opening Day, nearly all the focus went to center while Florimon was posting an OPS+ that made Drew Butera look like an All-Star.

At least in center, they were rolling the dice on a promising young player. At short, the writing was on the wall that we were looking at another Juan Castro situation.

#56 jokin

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 09:29 AM

He can't be worse than Florimon.

As much consternation as there has been over centerfield, I don't understand why people haven't been more critical of shortstop, which was the glaring flaw of the roster going into the season in my opinion.

The Opening Day shortstop had an OPS+ of 0 over 74 PAs. By comparison, Aaron Hicks looks like Barry Bonds next to that guy.


Ohh...we've been out here...and our numbers were growing by legion by the day...even Riverbrian jumped off the P-"Flawed" bandwagon- I think even the holdouts finally computed the math and could no longer justify the tradeoff at the plate. Even the stubborn Twins management recognized their mistaken ST assessment of Florimon and was pretty proactive on this front, going after Nunez early on.

#57 Riverbrian

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 09:41 AM

He can't be worse than Florimon.

As much consternation as there has been over centerfield, I don't understand why people haven't been more critical of shortstop, which was the glaring flaw of the roster going into the season in my opinion.

The Opening Day shortstop had an OPS+ of 0 over 74 PAs. By comparison, Aaron Hicks looks like Barry Bonds next to that guy.


I like defense and I probably over value it but I've seen what the lack of it does.

At the very least... be able to do one or the other...

Hicks hasn't impressed me defensively thus far... I think he will but he hasn't yet. Same thing for Presley... Same thing for Mastro. Fuld can at least go get it... He has impressed me.

Florimon has impressed me with his glove at SS and that's why I feel the way I do.

I can defend Florimon when he hits .220 with 9 dingers. I can't and won't defend him at .1 oh whatever with two extra base hits.

He's hit 3 balls hard all year... He's messed up... I'm off the bandwagon.

Escobar is rolling right now... Let him run until he tires.

#58 ashburyjohn

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 09:43 AM

[quote name='Sconnie']You are right. He's not ready to be up, but he was moved out of necessity. Since he's up, and hasn't failed yet. He's a valuable prospect and needs to play, and I would like to see him play every day at MLB SS until he falters, then give him the laundry list things to work on in AAA. Hopefully when he goes down to AAA, he's hungry to come back to the bigs and forces the issue quickly.[/QUOTE]
[quote name='Sconnie']My concern is more addressing the rookies issues with the media. A business manager is trained to Praise in Public, Punish in Private. This doesn't really work for the established pros, but a necessity for the rookies. The rookies have bigger things to work on than dealing with the media.[/QUOTE]

Came here to say both of these, find I don't need to. :) Santana won't be 24 until after the season ends, his batting resume in the minors is better than Florimon's at every step, he's not ready and should not be sniped at by his boss, but if he's up he should be playing.

[quote name='Riverbrian']Run with Escobar while he is hot. Be prepared for a cool down but run with Escobar while he is hot.[/QUOTE]

Not with DSantana on the roster.

I like Escobar a lot, but as a utility guy. Right now he's batting over his head, but even apart from that I worry he will wear down with everyday use. If not for Santana, I'd say sure, let's find out about that worry, maybe I'm wrong. But, it seems like there is fan pressure to move guys out of roles they are succeeding at into more demanding roles (Dozier to SS?), and instead I'd like to see the guys prove themselves in roles they'll fill on the good teams we believe are on the way. Utility Infielder isn't exactly a difficult slot to fill, but still it seems like we've got a good one right now and can take satisfaction in it, rather than push him to be a mediocre starter.

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#59 cmathewson

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 10:01 AM

Playing the hot hand makes sense if you're a pennant contender. The way they're managing the roster, this team will be lucky to escape the cellar of the ALC. Play the kid. Help him learn. Coach him. Praise him publicly. Correct him privately. If you do it right, you'll have a decent starting shortstop in 2015. My hope is that Molitor takes him under his wing. Someone has to coach the kids.
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#60 Guest_USAFChief_*

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 10:14 AM

I absolutely agree Santana should get the bulk of the SS playing time while he's here.