Jump to content

Providing independent coverage of the Minnesota Twins.

MinnCentric Forums


Subscribe to Twins Daily Email

Photo

Article: Why is Joe Mauer Such a Lightning Rod?

  • Please log in to reply
349 replies to this topic

#221 Craig Arko

Craig Arko

    Kepler 452b or bust

  • Members
  • 4,630 posts
  • LocationEarth
  • Twitter: crarko

Posted 10 April 2014 - 10:57 AM

True but I think the stats show your view on how often he is pitched around to have some flaws.


It's certainly possible. Although,

http://en.wikipedia....with_Statistics

is still needing to be read on a regular basis.

#222 Dman

Dman

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 756 posts

Posted 10 April 2014 - 10:59 AM

I am starting to understand the other side better but I can only think of two players who were the type of player that most would like Joe to be and that is Miguel Cabrera and Albert Pujols. Unfortunately Joe doesn't posses the HR power they have and is unlikely to impact games in the way they could. His approach is also different as he is typically less aggressive at the plate.

I can see how people find his approach frustrating and I guess I do at times as well. He is an enigma. In the end though I still admire his approach and the player that he is. I guess I am more content with letting him do what he does best. Others would like him to be something I don't see him ever becoming and I guess I don't find that fair. Especially since he is one of the best in baseball. I guess the lightning rod remains as the sides will just agree to disagree.

#223 TheLeviathan

TheLeviathan

    Twins News Team

  • Twins News Team
  • 9,213 posts

Posted 10 April 2014 - 11:06 AM

It's certainly possible. Although,

http://en.wikipedia....with_Statistics

is still needing to be read on a regular basis.


That really isn't a response.

If Mauer isn't getting pitches to hit, is seeing some of the most pitches in all of baseball, and has a good eye.....why is he not walking?

Votto walked twice as often for example. The flaw is in the meme that Mauer doesn't get pitches hit.

#224 Dman

Dman

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 756 posts

Posted 10 April 2014 - 11:20 AM

That really isn't a response.

If Mauer isn't getting pitches to hit, is seeing some of the most pitches in all of baseball, and has a good eye.....why is he not walking?


Votto walked twice as often for example. The flaw is in the meme that Mauer doesn't get pitches hit.


I think stats and eye test will bare this out. Mauer has no power so unless someone is in scoring position there is no need to pitch around him. If I was pitching to Mauer I would throw Strike one right down the middle. Low and away for strike two and then play with him a little throwing junk at him hoping for a swing and miss or a weak ground ball. You would think pitchers would be more successful against him since he essentially gives them 2 strikes almost every at bat.

#225 DJL44

DJL44

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 592 posts

Posted 10 April 2014 - 11:41 AM

When he gets a belt-high fastball for the first pitch, take a hack at it.


He does. Joe Mauer has the highest average in baseball when he makes contact with the first pitch. He's just really picky because he knows he has to be right more than 40% of the time for it to pay off.

The frustration for the Mauer supporters (and I'm one of them) is the Mauer critics keep suggesting that Mauer do things that would ultimately make him less productive and make the Twins lose more ballgames. They want him to hack more and walk less. They wanted him to move off catcher 5 years ago. They want him to throw a fit when something bad happens instead of acting like a professional. These are all terrible ideas.

#226 DJL44

DJL44

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 592 posts

Posted 10 April 2014 - 11:43 AM

Those who want him to be the entertainer aren't getting their money's worth.


Watching baseball for the post-game interviews is like watching porn for the plot and dialogue.

#227 DJL44

DJL44

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 592 posts

Posted 10 April 2014 - 11:49 AM

Votto walked twice as often for example.


Yes, there is one guy who has a higher OBP than Mauer - you found him.

#228 SDFan

SDFan

    Junior Member

  • Members
  • 22 posts

Posted 10 April 2014 - 12:45 PM

Watching baseball for the post-game interviews is like watching porn for the plot and dialogue.


Is there a hall of fame for posts? I nominate this one.

#229 kblack1011

kblack1011

    Member

  • Members
  • 52 posts

Posted 10 April 2014 - 12:48 PM

This. See also, Boggs, Wade and Gwynn, Tony. No one argues that they were elite. The Mauer hate reminds me of stories of the Williams hate in Boston. After he hit .400, they couldn't accept .350.


All these players have over 3,000 hits. Mauer has 1,400 so it's unlikely he will get close to 3,000. I think John Olerud is a more comparable.

#230 TheLeviathan

TheLeviathan

    Twins News Team

  • Twins News Team
  • 9,213 posts

Posted 10 April 2014 - 12:51 PM

Yes, there is one guy who has a higher OBP than Mauer - you found him.


You utterly and completely missed the point. Votto is pitched around. Mauer is not.

in fact, I can't remember anyone pitched more directly at than Mauer. He is rarely pitched around. His OBP is due to his eye/patience, NOT due to pitcher fear of throwing strikes. The notion that he is pitched around frequently is utterly preposterous.

#231 spycake

spycake

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 7,342 posts

Posted 10 April 2014 - 12:58 PM

You utterly and completely missed the point. Votto is pitched around. Mauer is not.

in fact, I can't remember anyone pitched more directly at than Mauer. He is rarely pitched around. His OBP is due to his eye/patience, NOT due to pitcher fear of throwing strikes. The notion that he is pitched around frequently is utterly preposterous.


Mauer's Intentional Bases on Balls
2005 AL 12 (4th)
2006 AL 21 (3rd)
2009 AL 14 (2nd)
2010 AL 14 (2nd)
2012 AL 10 (8th)
2014 AL 2 (2nd)
Active 105 (10th)
Career 105 (113th)

#232 TheLeviathan

TheLeviathan

    Twins News Team

  • Twins News Team
  • 9,213 posts

Posted 10 April 2014 - 01:01 PM

Mauer's Intentional Bases on Balls
2005 AL 12 (4th)
2006 AL 21 (3rd)
2009 AL 14 (2nd)
2010 AL 14 (2nd)
2012 AL 10 (8th)
2014 AL 2 (2nd)
Active 105 (10th)
Career 105 (113th)


intentional walks are hardly equivalent to pitching around. Mauer tends to earn his walks with patience rather than pitchers intentionally avoiding him.

#233 tobi0040

tobi0040

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 4,730 posts

Posted 10 April 2014 - 01:03 PM

All these players have over 3,000 hits. Mauer has 1,400 so it's unlikely he will get close to 3,000. I think John Olerud is a more comparable.


I think it is unrealistic to expect a catcher to end up with 3,000 hits. Mauer actually has a higher OPS (.873) than Olerud (.863), Boggs (.858), or Gwynn (.847). Given that he had that OPS through 8 years at a position that generates little offense, it is safe to conclude Mauer has added more value than all three.

Which comes back to, the criticism of Mauer is a little silly and he is a great player.

#234 tobi0040

tobi0040

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 4,730 posts

Posted 10 April 2014 - 01:05 PM

intentional walks are hardly equivalent to pitching around. Mauer tends to earn his walks with patience rather than pitchers intentionally avoiding him.


Pitching around and intentially walking are very similar things. Especially to a guy with a very good eye at the plate. One is just more blatent.

#235 spycake

spycake

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 7,342 posts

Posted 10 April 2014 - 01:08 PM

intentional walks are hardly equivalent to pitching around. Mauer tends to earn his walks with patience rather than pitchers intentionally avoiding him.


Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man. :)

#236 TheLeviathan

TheLeviathan

    Twins News Team

  • Twins News Team
  • 9,213 posts

Posted 10 April 2014 - 01:09 PM

Pitching around and intentially walking are very similar things. Especially to a guy with a very good eye at the plate. One is just more blatent.


Similar, sure. They are different, though. Now you can disagree with Verlander (and should given the matchup numbers) but clearly there is a perception of Mauer as a hitter not to pitch around but to challenge.

#237 Dman

Dman

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 756 posts

Posted 10 April 2014 - 01:15 PM

Mauer's Intentional Bases on Balls
2005 AL 12 (4th)
2006 AL 21 (3rd)
2009 AL 14 (2nd)
2010 AL 14 (2nd)
2012 AL 10 (8th)
2014 AL 2 (2nd)
Active 105 (10th)
Career 105 (113th)



Dang I am wrong yet again. I hate statistics. :D I wonder who was first those years?

#238 spycake

spycake

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 7,342 posts

Posted 10 April 2014 - 01:16 PM

I think it is unrealistic to expect a catcher to end up with 3,000 hits. Mauer actually has a higher OPS (.873) than Olerud (.863), Boggs (.858), or Gwynn (.847). Given that he had that OPS through 8 years at a position that generates little offense, it is safe to conclude Mauer has added more value than all three.

Which comes back to, the criticism of Mauer is a little silly and he is a great player.


I agree that Mauer is great, but it's not fair to compare Mauer's OPS through age 30 with Boggs/Gwynn through age 41 (or Olerud through 36). There should be era/ballpark adjustments too. I don't think your conclusion is at all clear given that problematic data.

#239 Willihammer

Willihammer

    Nostrombolimus

  • Members
  • 5,301 posts
  • LocationSaint Paul

Posted 10 April 2014 - 01:16 PM

Since 2010, Mauer is not even in the top 100 batters with the fewest strikes seen. But he has the 3rd lowest swings percent. He looks at a lot of hittable pitches, I don't think there's any question about that.

edit: go to fangraphs, sort Z-swing%. Mauer is 6th from the bottom among qualified batters since 2010.

#240 spycake

spycake

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 7,342 posts

Posted 10 April 2014 - 01:19 PM

Dang I am wrong yet again. I hate statistics. :D I wonder who was first those years?


http://www.baseball-...B_leagues.shtml