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Article: The Rundown: Shortstop Shakeup

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#21 Danchat

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 02:00 PM

I'd put Escobar at SS before Dozier or Plouffe. Just leave those guys where they are.


I concur. Can I double-like this post?

#22 jorgenswest

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 08:36 AM

[quote name='Willihammer']At what point do we think about putting Plouffe or Dozier back at SS?[/QUOTE]

Both would be better defenders than Nunez.

Here is an article written in 2011 about Nunez. It doesn't include any of the defensive metrics that suggest that he should never play SS. It was before he had the extended opportunity.

Two quotes from the article...

[QUOTE]"I was reminded of two virtually identical sentences about Nunez that were spoken, months apart, by two different Major League General Managers."

“As near as I can tell,” the first told me, “there are only two clubs who believe Nunez is anything more than a glorified utility infielder – the Yankees and Seattle.” The other said “I believe only two teams believe Nunez is more than a utilityman – maybe a Wilson Betemit. Seattle and the Yankees. And I’m not sure the Yankees really believe it.”[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]Nunez is not a major league infielder. There was a joke going around the Yankees earlier this year that he was on the roster entirely to make Derek Jeter look like a defensive all-star.[/QUOTE]

Since 2011 Nunez had more than enough chances to prove those GMs wrong. He didn't come close.

He may be down to one team that believes he can be a major league shortstop. Let's hope that the Twins are just smarter than the 29 other organizations.

#23 cmathewson

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 08:53 AM

These guys are very young, and in many cases immature.
I'm not giving the organization a free pass on giving up on Sulbaran just because he showed up "out of shape".
1) Pitchers don't necessarily need to be in great shape to be good at their job. Take David Wells for example. He put up very good numbers last year, why not give him an opportunity to do it again, and if it starts to look like his performance is bothered by his weight or conditioning, address it then?

2) We are just going to bail on our prospects every time they don't do exactly what the organization asks them to in the offseason?
Eddie Rosario, allegedly, cares more about getting high than he does his baseball career. Are we just going to bail on him as well?

Not being able to make the CR rotation was not because of his performance, he pitched great last year. If the organization couldn't find a spot for him, that is on them, he couldn't have done much more last year to earn a spot somewhere this year.

I'm not saying this will be another one, but this organization is starting to develop a track record of giving away talent in head scratching trades. Ramos for Capps, Garza for Delmon, Gomez for Hardy for Hoey, Liriano for Escobar, etc.


They weren't going to just give him a job over other guys who earned it, like Stewart. If he can't make the Cedar Rapids rotation, he's effectively worthless.
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#24 cmathewson

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 08:55 AM

A few thoughts and facts:

Nunez is already on the 40 man roster.

Procedurally, he has to go to Rochester based on maintaining his options.

He will be starting at SS there sooner rather than later.

The organization has said they brought him in as an alternative at SS.

If he isn't clicking, they will ship him out for whatever they can get before just keeping him around as depth.


They waited until he cleared waivers to make the trade. Then they "assigned" him to Rochester. Nothing in the language of the announcement suggests he was added to the 40 man. It didn't say he was optioned. Why would they add him if they didn't have to?
"If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

#25 Guest_USAFChief_*

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 08:57 AM

Both would be better defenders than Nunez.Here is an article written in 2011 about Nunez. It doesn't include any of the defensive metrics that suggest that he should never play SS. It was before he had the extended opportunity.Two quotes from the article...Since 2011 Nunez had more than enough chances to prove those GMs wrong. He didn't come close.He may be down to one team that believes he can be a major league shortstop. Let's hope that the Twins are just smarter than the 29 other organizations.

Well, that'd be one more GM than the number who think Florimon is a major league hitter.

#26 spycake

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 09:04 AM

They waited until he cleared waivers to make the trade. Then they "assigned" him to Rochester. Nothing in the language of the announcement suggests he was added to the 40 man. It didn't say he was optioned. Why would they add him if they didn't have to?


Nunez was never waived. He was DFA, giving the Yankees 10 days to trade or waive him. They chose to trade him.

He is listed on the official 40 man now too:
http://minnesota.twi...an.jsp?c_id=min

#27 jokin

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 09:06 AM

They waited until he cleared waivers to make the trade. Then they "assigned" him to Rochester. Nothing in the language of the announcement suggests he was added to the 40 man. It didn't say he was optioned. Why would they add him if they didn't have to?


http://espn.go.com/m...minnesota-twins

I'm not sure if I understand your post, at all. If you scroll down to the bottom of the 40 man list, there he is. The Twins arranged a trade to be certain Nunez wouldn't be claimed from underneath them. Every beat reporter has been receiving inside information that Nunez is being given every chance to claim the major league job. As I predicted in my post, he started at SS yesterday for the Wings.

From the Twins website:

April 8, 2014 Optioned INF Eduardo Nunez to Rochester (IL).


The Twins optioned Nunez because he had an option left. He is in Rochester to get his timing down and to demonstrate that he's major league ready.

Edited by jokin, 13 April 2014 - 09:11 AM.


#28 jokin

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 09:08 AM

Well, that'd be one more GM than the number who think Florimon is a major league hitter.


Touche!!!

#29 Mr. Brooks

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 09:14 AM

They weren't going to just give him a job over other guys who earned it, like Stewart. If he can't make the Cedar Rapids rotation, he's effectively worthless.


What was he supposed to do to "earn it"?
If a 2.96 ERA and 3.5:1 K/BB ratio (as a 19 year old) were not enough to "earn" a job, then I'm not sure what more he was supposed to do?

#30 jorgenswest

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 09:15 AM

Well, that'd be one more GM than the number who think Florimon is a major league hitter.


Florimon's hitting matches Nunez' fielding.

Is Nunez' hitting a match for Florimon's fielding?

#31 jokin

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 09:25 AM

What was he supposed to do to "earn it"?
If a 2.96 ERA and 3.5:1 K/BB ratio (as a 19 year old) were not enough to "earn" a job, then I'm not sure what more he was supposed to do?


Grow 2 inches and lose 30 pounds?

#32 spycake

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 09:26 AM

http://espn.go.com/m...minnesota-twins

I'm not sure if I understand your post, at all. If you scroll down to the bottom of the 40 man list, there he is. The Twins arranged a trade to be certain Nunez wouldn't be claimed from underneath them. Every beat reporter has been receiving inside information that Nunez is being given every chance to claim the major league job. As I predicted in my post, he started at SS yesterday for the Wings.

From the Twins website:



The Twins optioned Nunez because he had an option left. He is in Rochester to get his timing down and to demonstrate that he's major league ready.


To be fair, the DFA process makes it a little confusing, because it seemingly removes him from the Yankees 40 man right away. But more accurately, it gave them an extra 40 man spot and rendered Nunez ineligibe to play until they somehow removed him from their 40 man (either trade or waivers).

But yeah, logically, if he was waived, we (or someone else) would have simply claimed him, no trade necessary.

#33 spycake

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 09:32 AM

What was he supposed to do to "earn it"?
If a 2.96 ERA and 3.5:1 K/BB ratio (as a 19 year old) were not enough to "earn" a job, then I'm not sure what more he was supposed to do?


I am no scout, but in addition to the numbers, it worries me that two teams in the past year have targeted Sulbaran (even if logically two teams were also willing to part with him). And if he succeeds with the Yankees, it will hurt even more.

#34 jokin

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 09:32 AM

Florimon's hitting matches Nunez' fielding.

Is Nunez' hitting a match for Florimon's fielding?


Since we've all experienced the horror of Nishi at SS..... and given the horror stories being written about Nunez's defense in advance of his arrival, the only way that expectations for Nunez's fielding can go is up- so I don't think your first comparison fits. The Twins desperately need some resemblance of a leadoff man, it's likely that Nunez won't be great in that regard, but again, such a low bar has been set for those expectations, as well.

#35 Guest_USAFChief_*

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 09:33 AM

Florimon's hitting matches Nunez' fielding.Is Nunez' hitting a match for Florimon's fielding?

That seems like a question better suited for farmersonly.com

#36 jorgenswest

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 11:29 AM

That seems like a question better suited for farmersonly.com


My old age or lack of intelligence probably keep me from getting the response.

I hope the Twins are assessing how much replacing Florimon with Nunez will cost in runs defensively. There will be a cost. Is it 1 run every 4 games? 3 games? 10 games?

They need to match that with the increase in runs as a result of the change in offense.

If it is a wash, wouldn't it be better to go with the better defender? It will be a savings on the pitching staff and bullpen.

I am not sure the answer is at the referenced site. I hope the Twins are getting better advice.

#37 Guest_USAFChief_*

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 11:34 AM

My old age or lack of intelligence probably keep me from getting the response.I hope the Twins are assessing how much replacing Florimon with Nunez will cost in runs defensively. There will be a cost. Is it 1 run every 4 games? 3 games? 10 games?They need to match that with the increase in runs as a result of the change in offense.If it is a wash, wouldn't it be better to go with the better defender? It will be a savings on the pitching staff and bullpen. I am not sure the answer is at the referenced site. I hope the Twins are getting better advice.

It was a poor humor attempt, something akin to "is it better to bleed to death or drown?" ... I too hope the Twins are making g a comparison of the two. Where we differ is, I dont think the math is accurate enough to be a primary factor in the decision making process when it comes to defense.

#38 Guest_USAFChief_*

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 11:36 AM

And for the record, I doubt Nunez is a long term answer either.

#39 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 11:42 AM

I am no scout, but in addition to the numbers, it worries me that two teams in the past year have targeted Sulbaran (even if logically two teams were also willing to part with him). And if he succeeds with the Yankees, it will hurt even more.


So far, that "targeting" has yielded Drew Butera and Eduardo Nunez in return for the mighty Sulbaran.

The only things that are head-scratching about this entire scenario:

1. That the Twins EVER thought Florimon was an acceptable starter in MLB

2. Why people suddenly care about a 5'9" pitcher that showed up to camp 30 lbs overweight, a guy they traded for Drew-freakin-Butera

3. Again, Drew-freakin-Butera

I don't like Nunez. I don't care about Sulbaran, really. I can understand the front office's desire for MI depth but come on, this should have been addressed four months ago and I'm pretty confident in saying that Eduardo Nunez is just a different shade of lipstick for the pig that is the Twins' MLB shortstop situation.

But I see no reason to get upset about the "loss" of Sublaran, either.

#40 Mr. Brooks

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 11:56 AM

So far, that "targeting" has yielded Drew Butera and Eduardo Nunez in return for the might Sulbaran.

The only things that are head-scratching about this entire scenario:

1. That the Twins EVER thought Florimon was an acceptable starter in MLB

2. Why people suddenly care about a 5'9" pitcher that showed up to camp 30 lbs overweight, a guy they traded for Drew-freakin-Butera

3. Again, Drew-freakin-Butera

I don't like Nunez. I don't care about Sulbaran, really. I can understand the front office's desire for MI depth but come on, this should have been addressed four months ago and I'm pretty confident in saying that Eduardo Nunez is just a different shade of lipstick for the pig that is the Twins' MLB shortstop situation.

But I see no reason to get upset about the "loss" of Sublaran, either.


It's not uncommon for some people to have wildly differing opinions of prospects, especially when you get past the top 10 per organization.
I liked Sulbaran when they got him, and liked him even more after the year he put up last year.
His height means nothing to me. (Plus he's 5'10" not 5'9") If a guy can make it as a major leaguer with one arm, then a guy can make it at 5'10".
Showing up overweight also means nothing to me.
1) We don't know how the weight will affect his pitching, if it all. Plenty of fat pitchers have succeeded in baseball. Sabbathia for one, Wells for another. He should have been given a chance to see if it affected his pitching or not, and if i did, address it then.
2) These are young people. The coaches and org should be there to guide them and help them, not ship them out the first time they screw up.

I think Sulbaran is a good prospect.

Nunez has a career negative WAR. To me it is pretty dysfunctional that you can't even find someone in your own organization that you feel confident can equal or better someone with a negative WAR.