Nick Punto's perhaps?Quote:
Originally Posted by FrodaddyG
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Nick Punto's perhaps?Quote:
Originally Posted by FrodaddyG
Or to take a step further back, this land would still belong to its native inhabitants and we'd all be in Europe posting on a Cricket site.Quote:
Originally Posted by FrodaddyG
Two wrongs make a right? So we should bully bigots and that will set the world right?Quote:
Originally Posted by flpmagikat
This is precisely my problem in a nut-shell. Well done, intended or not.
I don't think the conversation was at any such point when one poster decided to jump it there. As a justification to end the discussion, I agree it's garbage. But often the same camp that is quick to rush to "he can't say that!" is the same one that usually says "hey...to each their own!"Quote:
Originally Posted by PseudoSABR
Which would be fine and dandy if things like racism and bigotry weren't real problems in this society and oppression (and even law-making) to banish such people to second-rate citizenship weren't issues in modern America.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLeviathan
There is no reasonable middle ground? See, I have problem taking these people serious (liberals to be specific) because it is such rampant hypocrisy. Either society is free (for good and bad) or it isn't and there is room for moral condemnation, but normally they only like to play by the same rules when it suits their purpose.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp
Personally, I feel Torii has a right to announce his stupidity. A very, very valuable right. And we have every right to thrash his opinion for the stupitidy it is. Hell, hold it up and say "look how dumb this is" to push people to make better decisions about their ethical positions. But you can't fix racism and bigotry without being able to say there are rights and wrongs and we can have a discussion about that. A logical, practical discussion. That comes with negatives (like, sometimes your opinion is wrong, no matter how strongly you feel about it) but it's worth it because the right way will eventually prevail.
1. Wherever you work... Look around... 10 Percent are gay... 33 Percent of the other 90 percent don't want the other 10 percent living next door to them. It's the world we live in and we shouldn't be shocked that it's out there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp
2. I'm not judging Torii or you or anybody on why they feel the way they do. They just do. Who has the Majority opinion... Same sex marriage would be legal in every state and province if it was cut and dried.
3. Torii Hunter did choose to be a baseball player... The Public spotlight comes with the territory... Fairly or unfairly... I personally don't care what they think socially. Torii is obviously not afraid to express his personal opinion just like I'm not and you are not on Twins Daily. Joe Blow from Erskine, Minnesota also has opinions that he freely expresses at the Corner Bar but he doesn't have reporters printing his thoughts and he may express the same opinion and be wrong in my eyes but should that opinion end up defining him.
4. Take a walk through time... Back in biblical times people were stoned to death for things that today's society believes to be extremely petty and society eventually advanced.
5. The Earth was believed to be flat for awhile and the small minority of people who believed in a round earth were thought to be kooks and laughed at. We now we look back at those centuries and find it hard to believe how stupid those flat earth people were but does it mean that those people were acutally stupid or did they just not have the information needed. Society got better educated in time.
6. Back in the 19th Century... Hungarian Physician Ignaz Semmelweis started washing his hands before delivering children and cut infant mortality drastically and when he presented his findings his professional co-horts laughed at him. We look back today and say... OMG. Society got better educated in time.
7. In the 20th Century... Black Baseball Players were not allowed to play with White players professionally. They were also not allowed to drink from the same fountains, eat at the same lunch counters, stay in the same hotels or ride in the same seats on the bus. Today we have a black president and we still have racial problems but it's getting better... Our younger generations can look back and say what the hell were they thinking but the older generations grew up with this type of thinking all around them.
8. Ask yourself this... In the 22nd Century... If life hasn't been destroyed by a wayward meteor. When they look back at us in 2012... What crazy belief do we have that will be making them laugh at us.
9. It's all about education... Torii Hunter grew up in a household and a culture that felt a certain way and that could be why he thinks what he thinks if he actually thinks that. Just like you grew up thinking what you think and I grew up thinking what I think. We were all educated to our opinions by family, friends, school, whatever... Over time... The gay issue will fade away as people start to die off and the new mentality takes over bit by bit.
10. What if Torii Hunter was asked by a reporter his opinion on Abortion and you agree with his opinion? Even if you agree with him... Do you think Torii can imerge without a public black eye.
11. The Majority of Black Males from Arkansas share his opinion. Why is that?
12. Why are baseball players being asked Social questions for our consumption and why do we care? My opinion is that Torii needs a publicist and he needs to listen to that publicist.
I'm not trying to start anything... I don't even disagree with your viewpoint... Like I said... I voted against the banning of Same Sex Marriage measure in North Dakota. 73 Percent of North Dakota disagreed with me. I work with those people and I hang out with them and I call them my friends and I can't grasp why they think that way.
Yeah there is no disagreement with this.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLeviathan
Too many on the both sides, but particularly the left, are afraid of the power in reason that directly derives from the marketplace of ideas and how it is the best way to achieve true social progress, absent the polarizing strife, bullying and mayhem stemming from the hysterical and oh-so-righteous, "opinion facists'.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLeviathan
I am constantly amused by the people who are so blindly sure that they are "in the right" and guilt-free in the support of the suppression of free speech, when they are in fact, little better than the bigoted themselves, or for that matter, the residents of Salem, Massachusetts in 1692. "Burn the Witch!", indeed.
It's funny- many people would say, "young people are immature, rash and arrogant." In this case, I am proud to be a part of a generation of tolerance. However, as a libertarian, I find it shocking that many don't take 1st Amendment rights more seriously. It goes without saying that Torii's opinion here is ugly, wrong and offensive to many outside of the LGBT community. Nonetheless, I think Torii's comments provide an excellent educational moment. Diversity of opinion is an invaluable tool.
My younger brother (13) asked me today what Torii's comments were about. I explained to him that while we are all God's children and should accept everyone regardless of race or creed, some think that homosexuality is wrong. I explained how these people were wrong, and how we should fight for equality for the LGBT community. Torii's comments gave me a chance to have a sincere conversation about gay rights, God and why equality is important. I had never touched on the topic of gay rights with my brother before, but I'm glad I had the chance.
People with bigoted opinions like Torii give us all a valuable chance to strengthen and spread our own tolerant views. I shouldn't have to cite John Locke's "On Liberty" or Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr's dissent in Abrams v. US to make this point, but for the more intellectual audience on this website- it might suit you well to crack a book.
Finally -and this is something I've run into all across this website- stop acting so damn belligerent and hostile towards each other. It sullies otherwise valuable discussion and is just generally ugly. Take a hard look at yourselves and your insecurities and grow up. Throughout history people have been able to have these discussions without resorting to ad-hominem attacks.
When some people read or hear certain things they often choose to express how it makes them feel. I don't think that makes them holier than thou, nor does it mean they think themselves as special.Quote:
Originally Posted by 70charger
You choose to shake your head and I'll choose to make a passing comment, I don't presume to think that makes me any more special than you do.
Who is saying free speech should be suppressed? Bigots can say what they want, but the rest of society in turn then has the obligation to shame that person to demonstrate to other bigots that those views will no longer serve to dictate the direction our society will head thus forth. Unless you are of mind that those biggoted views serve a positive purpose?Quote:
Originally Posted by jokin
See my post above. It's not as far-fetched and outrageous as you would make it seem.Quote:
Originally Posted by nicksaviking
Disagreement with someone's lifestyle does not mean they hate the other person. I feel there is an inappropriate connection between the two that many are making. I disagree with things my daughter does all the time but I love her 10 times more than my own life. Love has nothing to do with being tolerant of someone's lifestyle. Love is how much you value a person and how much you show it. Having said all that I think the way the church has dealt with this over recent history has helped cause the confusion too. Certain psycho preachers have preached hate and many others just haven't known how to deal with it. So it's understandable that some who hear these opinions overreact. They probably have had some negative experience with that super-judgmental type.
Hate to break this to you, but none of the pro athletes I know feel this way, so either my sample is very anti- your argument, or your argument is invalid and incorrect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuba
Yeah those damn liberals wanting to limit speech and not have a discussion of ideas!Quote:
Originally Posted by jokin
That is the crazy hypocrisy of this often-times. One of the things I appreciate most about liberals is what they abandon first when the subject matter gets tough.Quote:
Originally Posted by PseudoSABR
Please tell, which post on this site asked for anyone's right to free speech be squelched? Saying we should have a "discussion of ideas" would only give creedence to those that believe homophobia is a valid option. If that is your true belief please be forth coming about it instead of pretending to be offended that someone's first ammenment rights are being taken away. They aren't and no one has suggested they should be.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLeviathan
Pretty disappointing that Torii would put this out publicly. It's one thing to have a viewpoint on something that isn't PC, but it's another thing to speak it out loud as a highly visible MLB player.
For someone who champions black issues, it's a little surprising he's not very tolerant of others.
I don't know how anyone can claim to be a champion of liberty if they are not willing to take a stand against those who use their liberty to deny others liberty. It's absurd. It's ideological not reasonable.
Look, all acts are political, even non-acts. In my opinion, when you stand on the margins and let the majority or traditional view point battle a minority or progressive viewpoint, you simply crown those already king--you allow those with the most power to control the debate and essentially endorse the status quo. It seems cowardly and unprincipled.