Per a Twitter post from Aaron Gleeman, Fan Graphs has Joe Mauer on pace to be worth $24 million this year. A reminder to everybody that he is making $23 million this year.

Where are all of "Mauer is overpaid" comments now?

(That sound you hear is the crickets chirping in the background.)

I love FG, but the money value chart is one of the stupidest things on that site.

He's still overpaid

I love FG, but the money value chart is one of the stupidest things on that site.

Agreed. It's basically useless.

Is Fan Graphs willing to foot some of the bill?

Mauer is overpaid given what they are willing to spend on the whole team. Happy now? Are we really going to do this every week? And how does this opinion make anyone a hater?

I also think Mauer is overpaid - and that doesn't make me a "Mauer-hater." I actually think he's done well for the team this year, but it was still a fool's contract, as much as for the length as for the amount. The think the Twins knew it, too, but they were boxed in by circumstances outside their control - just like Drew Brees and New Orleans this year.

He signed the contract, everyone needs to just get over it. What if this, what if that, it really doesn't matter, he is on our team and is playing well. Let's all just be happy he plays for us and not the Yankees. I don't think anyone can make the arguement that he is worth a quarter of the teams total payroll, but how do we make this a winning organization with his contract, because frankly it isn't going any where.

I'm not convinced that Mauer isn't overpaid.

Also... if you're tired of hearing people complain about Mauer's salary, starting threads like this isn't going to stop that. It's just going to start the argument up all over again.

Do we really need to be having this discussion for the 5th time this month?

The FG dollar values give credit for position scarcity. Mauer is not a full time Catcher anymore so the dollar figure is heavily inflated. I dont fully understand the calculation but I would guess if he was compared to other 1B/DH types he would be at a 10 mil pace.

The FG dollar values give credit for position scarcity. Mauer is not a full time Catcher anymore so the dollar figure is heavily inflated. I dont fully understand the calculation but I would guess if he was compared to other 1B/DH types he would be at a 10 mil pace.

Much like WAR it's not currently giving him "full credit" as a full time catcher, its give him half credit at C and half at 1st base, so basically its a wash.

Much like WAR it's not currently giving him "full credit" as a full time catcher, its give him half credit at C and half at 1st base, so basically its a wash.

What about all the DH starts?

What about all the DH starts?

Takes those into account as well.

It's a pointless number that Dave Cameron and his merry band of jackasses assign to a win. When I first started ready FG I used it all the time, but as I looked more into it, it's just worthless to even use it in any type of debate.

It's a pointless number that Dave Cameron and his merry band of jackasses assign to a win. When I first started ready FG I used it all the time, but as I looked more into it, it's just worthless to even use it in any type of debate.
So it's every bit as useful as WAR. Good to know.

So it's every bit as useful as WAR. Good to know.

Less useful, evidently. If you're not a fan of WAR, then you're probably less of a fan of statistics that rely on the accuracy of WAR, like Player Value.

It's a pointless number that Dave Cameron and his merry band of jackasses assign to a win. When I first started ready FG I used it all the time, but as I looked more into it, it's just worthless to even use it in any type of debate.

It's not worthless, its just not strong enough to be used as a stand alone in an argument, it will show you some relative value of players. For instance Delmon was in negative numbers for a bit, which I think is entirely accurate.

It's not worthless, its just not strong enough to be used as a stand alone in an argument, it will show you some relative value of players. For instance Delmon was in negative numbers for a bit, which I think is entirely accurate.

WOW...that's such a great analogy Dave, you totally changed my view by using Delmon ****ing Young to show how a worthless player is worth negative value.

I'm not a Mauer hater. I'm a "Mauer Thread" hater.

Enough is enough.

Wait a minute, a statistical formula disagrees with my own personal heuristic? The data must be inherently flawed!

Agreed. It's basically useless.

to be fair a lot of teams use the "~4.5 million per win" formula in evaluating contracts

to be fair a lot of teams use the "~4.5 million per win" formula in evaluating contracts

Might it be more accurate to say "a lot of writers and posters at Fangraphs use the ~4.5 million per win" formula in evaluating contracts?

Or is there actual evidence "a lot of teams" are using that?

Yadier Molina must be worth 35 million then according to Fangraphs.

What was Mauer worth during his 09 season? 50 million?

Yadier Molina must be worth 35 million then according to Fangraphs.

What was Mauer worth during his 09 season? 50 million?
Mauer had a $35.7 mil worth in 09
Molina has a 17.1 Mil worth vs Mauers 13.3 Mil worth this year.
Molina only has an OPS 20 pts higher then Mauer which suggests that since he is a full time catcher its effecting his worth quite a bit.

Might it be more accurate to say "a lot of writers and posters at Fangraphs use the ~4.5 million per win" formula in evaluating contracts?

Or is there actual evidence "a lot of teams" are using that?

there was a post about how CC Sabathia's contract extension broke down almost exactly like that (with projected regression and all that good stuff) . I don't suppose you could get a major league GM to admit how he values contracts though, no.

Agreed. It's basically useless.


What's your evidence for this claim?

Takes those into account as well.

Yes. But the mindless drones ignore that.

God. This thread makes me sick. Fangraphs is not the end-all, but people are just absolutely stupid about statistics and damn mathematics sometimes around here.

God. This thread makes me sick. Fangraphs is not the end-all, but people are just absolutely stupid about statistics and damn mathematics sometimes around here.

Please educate us.

I see a lot of people saying that the Fan Graphs formula of what a player is worth is pointless or worthless, but nobody really saying why. Anybody care to shed some light on what makes this such a poor resource? Could it be that it is poor because it doesn't fit your opinion that Joe Mauer is overpaid?

What's your evidence for this claim?

Because it has virtually no relevance to real-world salaries. Some years, a guy is "worth" $45 million. The next, he's "worth" $30 million. Yet no one in baseball has actually approached the $30m barrier in a season.

As Dave said, it's a novelty formula that can sometimes be used to compared players to one another... Except that WAR already does that and does a better job of it, along with a host of other player "value" metrics that gauge any number of things.

So, basically, it's useless. It's not grounded in any kind of reality and there are other metrics out there that do a better job of what it's trying to do.

Because it has virtually no relevance to real-world salaries. Some years, a guy is "worth" $45 million. The next, he's "worth" $30 million. Yet no one in baseball has actually approached the $30m barrier in a season.

As Dave said, it's a novelty formula that can sometimes be used to compared players to one another... Except that WAR already does that and does a better job of it, along with a host of other player "value" metrics that gauge any number of things.

So, basically, it's useless. It's not grounded in any kind of reality and there are other metrics out there that do a better job of what it's trying to do.

That isn't an argument against it at all. If you actually point out how it is flawed in the calculation, that would be different. It's not like it has nothing to do with WAR or anything . . . .

That isn't an argument against it at all. If you actually point out how it is flawed in the calculation, that would be different. It's not like it has nothing to do with WAR or anything . . . .

It's "flawed" in its calculations because some players are "worth" nearly $50m using its calculations. It has very little real-world application and other player metrics do a better job of explaining a player's overall value, both independently and relative to other players.

There is no reason to affix an arbitrary dollar number to a player if it doesn't reflect actual player salaries, doubly so when there are a host of other metrics that do a much better job of determining how many wins a player is worth, how he got to that number both offensively and defensively, and how he compares to his peers.

PS. How is "there are other metrics that do a better job" not a valid argument against something?

Would the Mauer haters be Santana, Hunter, and Cuddyer haters if the Twins had resigned those players to the huge contracts they got from other teams? I agree enough is enough. He's a postive and extremely productive player (except for last season).

He is still overpaid and overrated!!http://www.facebook.com/JoeMauerIsMostOverratedPlayerInBaseball

Reported for Spam.

It's "flawed" in its calculations because some players are "worth" nearly $50m using its calculations. It has very little real-world application and other player metrics do a better job of explaining a player's overall value, both independently and relative to other players.

There is no reason to affix an arbitrary dollar number to a player if it doesn't reflect actual player salaries, doubly so when there are a host of other metrics that do a much better job of determining how many wins a player is worth, how he got to that number both offensively and defensively, and how he compares to his peers.

PS. How is "there are other metrics that do a better job" not a valid argument against something?

I doubt that Gleeman and those who actually assign such values believe it is arbitrary, especially with its connection to WAR. Anyway, your argument seems to be that no one could be worth more than the top paid player? Albert Pujols HAS been worth more than the highest paid player for years. Making the connection to actual existing contracts seems like the arbitrary part of this. Oh well.

He is still overpaid and overrated!!http://www.facebook.com/JoeMauerIsMostOverratedPlayerInBaseball

We do not allow multiple accounts, especially those designed to start a flamewar. I will be deleting this account in an hour after you have a chance to read my PM.

Would the Mauer haters be Santana, Hunter, and Cuddyer haters if the Twins had resigned those players to the huge contracts they got from other teams? I agree enough is enough. He's a postive and extremely productive player (except for last season).

I was all for resigning Santana and Hunter (not Cuddyer).

The difference would have been that Santana and Hunter have remained relatively consistent with what their established normal seasons were, whereas signing Mauer after his huge outlier season got many people into the mindset that 2009 would be his new career norm... at least that's what we're paying him like.

I think 2009 was the worst thing that could have happened to Mauer. Unreasonable expectations were now built in ("If he did it before, why can't he do it again" etc). If he had hit 320/400/450 like he always did we'd probably be much more content with the production we're getting from him now.