In 2010 and 2011, Target Field park factor for run scoring was .962 and .944. It is considered to be a pitcher's park. Through half of a season this year, park factor for run scoring is 1.053. Home runs are still down, but everything else is up.

It takes more than two years to determine how a venue will impact run scoring. Look at data for Mall of America Field from 2007-2009 and you will see significant season to season variance even in a climate controlled venue.

Our assumptions about Target Field being a pitcher's park may be incorrect. It hasn't been thus far this year.

If you are interested, park factor data can be found at http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/parkfactor

Thanks for the link Jorgens.

In 2010 and 2011, Target Field park factor for run scoring was .962 and .944. It is considered to be a pitcher's park. Through half of a season this year, park factor for run scoring is 1.053. Home runs are still down, but everything else is up.

It takes more than two years to determine how a venue will impact run scoring. Look at data for Mall of America Field from 2007-2009 and you will see significant season to season variance even in a climate controlled venue.

Our assumptions about Target Field being a pitcher's park may be incorrect. It hasn't been thus far this year.

If you are interested, park factor data can be found at http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/parkfactor

The one stadium I always felt was a pitchers park was Oakland. That foul territory has to be a pitchers advantage. The data doesn't necessarily support that thinking I guess.

The ones who were crying about the field were the players.

The ones who were crying about the field were the players.

Nobody cried. People were able to discuss things at an adult level with some thought. Well...some people.

With the way Plouffe and Willingham have been jerking home runs to left field, it certainly isn't looking like a pitchers park. Players are starting to figure out how to hit at Target Field and that is making the offensive numbers show up.

I've been saying for 2 yrs, "lets wait a bit before we declare TF to be the grand canyon."

There's nothing in the dimensions that should make it a huge pitcher's park. The RF alley is tough with the tall wall, but other than that, it's not that big.

I've been saying for 2 yrs, "lets wait a bit before we declare TF to be the grand canyon."

There's nothing in the dimensions that should make it a huge pitcher's park. The RF alley is tough with the tall wall, but other than that, it's not that big.

Agreed that it shouldn't be huge. But the aforementioned wall extends an awfully long way toward center and makes homers in a certain trajectory very, very rare. The thing I think is strange is that there are very few that go out to center (has the batter's eye ever been hit? Thome's two OVER it are all the more amazing when considering that maybe nobody else has even pelted it), and even the bullpens haven't been hit that often. That alley-to-alley range has played deep, and the dimensions aren't likely the cause. As you mention, it's not much different distance-wise than a lot of other places.

2 years isn't enough data but 1/2 of a year tells you something? Interesting...

2 years isn't enough data but 1/2 of a year tells you something? Interesting...

My thought as well.

Conventional wisdom dictates that summertime gives hotter temps, which help carry the ball further.

Another theory is perhaps Twins players (and opposing teams) are understanding how to hit at Target Field now. Personally, I just think our pitching hasn’t been so great, and out hitting has been picking up as of late, as to partial reasons why it’s up this year.

2 years isn't enough data but 1/2 of a year tells you something? Interesting...

Would be more interesting if you could find where anyone made that leap in this thread.

Nobody cried. People were able to discuss things at an adult level with some thought. Well...some people.

You must have missed the quotes by Cuddyer, Kubel, and Morneau.

Cuddyer "any ball hit in right-center is an out, pretty much."

Kubel ""I made some adjustments, but I made them a year later. Not trying to pull the ball and put it in the air so much. Start hitting line drives all over the place."

Kubel “There’s a big wall there and the outfield is deep. It’s tough on a line drive hitter but the high wall and deep outfield makes that a difficult hitter’s park.”

Morneau "“Right-center to left-center is ridiculous. [It's] almost impossible for a righthanded hitter to [homer to the] opposite field and very difficult for lefties. It affects the hitters a lot, and you start to develop bad habits as a hitter when you feel like you can only pull the ball to hit it over the fence. You take those habits on the road.”

Sounds like a lot of crying to me lol. Good thing Plouffe, Willingham, Parmelee and Thome aren't that worried about it.

2 years isn't enough data but 1/2 of a year tells you something? Interesting...

I had to reread what I wrote originally.

I should have been more clear for you. Did you assume I implied that it was now a hitter's park? Sorry about that. My point is that there is a lot of variance with parks from year to year and the first two years of data from Target Field probably is not enough to declare it a pitcher's park.

Its possible that the Plaza could be a factor. I'm not saying it while banging down a gavel. Its possible... The plaza is an open spot and the wind will funnel through it and could knock down balls. I admit I don't know what direction it faces cuz I'm bad with directions but if it faces a typical wind direction it could cause problems for lefties. Mauer... Morneau and Kubel haven't hit a ton of Target field homers. Thome... well he's a power freak... It would take an F3 tornado to knock his ball down.

Righties do seem to hit more. I said seem... I didn't research anything.

You must have missed the quotes by Cuddyer, Kubel, and Morneau.

Cuddyer "any ball hit in right-center is an out, pretty much."

Kubel ""I made some adjustments, but I made them a year later. Not trying to pull the ball and put it in the air so much. Start hitting line drives all over the place."

Kubel “There’s a big wall there and the outfield is deep. It’s tough on a line drive hitter but the high wall and deep outfield makes that a difficult hitter’s park.”

Morneau "“Right-center to left-center is ridiculous. [It's] almost impossible for a righthanded hitter to [homer to the] opposite field and very difficult for lefties. It affects the hitters a lot, and you start to develop bad habits as a hitter when you feel like you can only pull the ball to hit it over the fence. You take those habits on the road.”

Sounds like a lot of crying to me lol. Good thing Plouffe, Willingham, Parmelee and Thome aren't that worried about it.

Every one of those seems like someone analyzing what they do for a living and nothing more.

The one stadium I always felt was a pitchers park was Oakland. That foul territory has to be a pitchers advantage. The data doesn't necessarily support that thinking I guess.

It's still grading out as a pitcher's park (19th in baseball in runs) this year, and it's not finished higher than 19th in any season. That said, this is not a "park factor" statistic. It's a runs allowed statistic. Yankee stadium grades out as a hitter's park easily, yet it's often lower in runs scored because the Yankees typically have solid pitching.

Baseball-reference uses a grading system on all parks with a 100 score being average (explained h (http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/parkadjust.shtml)ere), over 100 being hitter friendly, and under 100 being pitcher friendly. This season the batter/pitcher average is 99, the multi-year grade is 97. While year to year grades will show plenty of variance, the multi-year grade often is very true to form. Target Field is the 10th most pitcher-friendly park in that statistic, ranking behind your assumed parks (Seattle, San Francisco, Los Angeles (both of them), San Diego, etc., but also ranking as more of a pitcher's park than some assumed pitchers' paradises like Washington, Oakland, and Atlanta. To compare, Yankee stadium is the 6th most hitter-friendly park according to B-Ref's park adjustments, but they're 16th in runs scored this season.

Terms like "pitcher-friendly" or "hitter-friendly" cannot be simply evaluated with home runs or runs scored. Coors Field is incredibly hitter friendly, but it has some of the largest dimensions of any field in the game, which would on the surface look pitching friendly. However, the thinner air and huge outfield hurt pitchers as line drives often take different routes in the Colorado air and can cut through and out of the park where they'd often die due to air friction in a similar-sized park closer to sea level.

Originally Posted by Badsmerf http://twinsdaily.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://twinsdaily.com/showthread.php?p=29942#post29942)You must have missed the quotes by Cuddyer, Kubel, and Morneau. Cuddyer "any ball hit in right-center is an out, pretty much." Kubel ""I made some adjustments, but I made them a year later. Not trying to pull the ball and put it in the air so much. Start hitting line drives all over the place." Kubel “There’s a big wall there and the outfield is deep. It’s tough on a line drive hitter but the high wall and deep outfield makes that a difficult hitter’s park.” Morneau "“Right-center to left-center is ridiculous. [It's] almost impossible for a righthanded hitter to [homer to the] opposite field and very difficult for lefties. It affects the hitters a lot, and you start to develop bad habits as a hitter when you feel like you can only pull the ball to hit it over the fence. You take those habits on the road.”Sounds like a lot of crying to me lol. Good thing Plouffe, Willingham, Parmelee and Thome aren't that worried about it.


Every one of those seems like someone analyzing what they do for a living and nothing more.

Don't forget to add Joe Mauer for nothing more than analyzing what he does for a living:

"It's definitely frustrating as a left-handed hitter," Mauer said. "I'd be lying if I told you there aren't times at the plate where you're like, 'Oh, I've got to maybe pull a ball,' or things like that. It messes with your approach a little bit."


Don't forget that they apparently complained as a group (oh, I meant to say analyzing what they do for a living) to remove the center field trees after 2010- only to see averages and production plummet further.

I'd love to hear Plouffe, Willingham, Parmelee and Thome,....and Soriano,......and Bautista.... Oh wait, Thome has gone public with his analyzing what he does (did/er, will do again, now that he's back in the AL as an Oriole) for a living. Here's Thome griping away:


"There were some balls that you hit that could get knocked down, sure, I think maybe (it's) the weather or something," Thome said. "Whatever. You just go hit. You don't really worry about all that."

Note that the recent increase in homers is heavily tilted to left field. Right field remains a problem due to plaza wind tunnel effect with wind blowing in more than out and the right center wall. To get a ball over that wall on the CF side requires a blast almost like Thome's two over the batter's eye.

Reporter: Joe, the home run totals at Target field are down considerably from the Metrodome. Especially for left handers. Do you find this frustrating?




"It's definitely frustrating as a left-handed hitter," Mauer said. "I'd be lying if I told you there aren't times at the plate where you're like, 'Oh, I've got to maybe pull a ball,' or things like that. It messes with your approach a little bit."


FOLLOWED by the reaction of some not so nice fans who refer to this as crying.

At what point... do you realize that you are either borderline insane or losing human qualities or at least really bad with your use of adjectives.

Seriously... Why Do they speak at all? With people like Badsmerf and you around?

You must have missed the quotes by Cuddyer, Kubel, and Morneau.

Cuddyer "any ball hit in right-center is an out, pretty much."

Kubel ""I made some adjustments, but I made them a year later. Not trying to pull the ball and put it in the air so much. Start hitting line drives all over the place."

Kubel “There’s a big wall there and the outfield is deep. It’s tough on a line drive hitter but the high wall and deep outfield makes that a difficult hitter’s park.”

Morneau "“Right-center to left-center is ridiculous. [It's] almost impossible for a righthanded hitter to [homer to the] opposite field and very difficult for lefties. It affects the hitters a lot, and you start to develop bad habits as a hitter when you feel like you can only pull the ball to hit it over the fence. You take those habits on the road.”

Sounds like a lot of crying to me lol. Good thing Plouffe, Willingham, Parmelee and Thome aren't that worried about it.

I don't see any of those quotes as "crying"... This is just guys being honest, and who really know's what context these responses are being used in when you can just cut and paste your favorite parts to make a point in your favor? Look at the way Mauer has been hitting the ball of late. Yes, he may have made comments in the past about the park tempting lefties to get pull happy, and I truly think that last year especially he was falling into that trap and his numbers showed for it. This year, he has gotten back to his old self, using the entire left side of the field and not trying to pull every ball he can. My point is baseball is a game of adjustments, just like many other sports, good players will adapt to their surroundings and figure out a way to be effective. We're just about half way through the third season, let's give these guys a chance to make the necessary changes to the ball field's dimensions before we title them "cry babies".

The Twins will hit better at Target Field when they've finally cycled out their Metrodome-era hitters.

Guys like Cuddyer, Kubel, Mauer, and even Morneau to an extent, are gap-to-gap hitters. TF doesn't reward those types of players like the Dome did.

I attended a game at Target Field for the first time this weekend. Wish I could've gotten there sooner, but it wasn't in the cards. Three observations. First, right field and the plaza are east as the ballpark sits. Prevailing winds in the midwestern summer are usually south/southwest/west, rarely out of the east. Winds out of the south are blowing out to left field, winds out of the west are blowing out to right field. Beyond right field is the downtown skyline with several tall buildings. I can only guess that prevailing south winds would hit those downtown buildings and some of those winds might blow through the plaza. Second, upon sitting down I immediately noticed that the ballpark seating is much more vertical than most other stadiums I've been in. This is great for fans so they don't have heads in front of them to look over and around. It also means the 3baseline and 1baseline stands are quite high and the playing field is very low, thus cutting down on winds blowing out to left and right. Finally, this weekend was hot and muggy with prevailing winds out of the south blowing out to left field. Simply said, it was the perfect weather for righties with a pull swing and the perfect weather for Mauer's opposite field homer. Any other weather pattern, and Mauer's opposite field shot this weekend is caught on the edge of the warning track.

At what point... do you realize that you are either borderline insane or losing human qualities or at least really bad with your use of adjectives.

Seriously... Why Do they speak at all? With people like Badsmerf and you around?

Keep in mind, of course, that not speaking (or even not speaking enough or even not saying precisely the words that "they" decide should have been said--often after the fact) will get the same response from many of the same people. BUT...in the interest of self-fulfilling prophecies, I now HAVE been able to find some examples in this thread of people going out of there way to complain and whine where there really was no reason for it. Which is interesting. I won't mention which posts or who they were...

When players are complaining and blaming outside things effecting their performance they are crying. Thome is a perfect example of a pro because his explanation of TF is that its a baseball field and you go out and play. I don't mind Mauer saying its and adjustment, but give me a break. Do you really feel bad because TF doesn't play as well for lefties as the dome did? I don't. Hit the ball hard and hit line drives and you'll hit HR's.

When players are complaining and blaming outside things effecting their performance they are crying. Thome is a perfect example of a pro because his explanation of TF is that its a baseball field and you go out and play. I don't mind Mauer saying its and adjustment, but give me a break. Do you really feel bad because TF doesn't play as well for lefties as the dome did? I don't. Hit the ball hard and hit line drives and you'll hit HR's.

Husband is actually happy and trying to watch a ballgame on TV.

Wife: What did you think of Supper?
Husband: It was OK... Wasn't one of my favorites... It helped when I put some Ketchup on it.
Wife: I'm so sick of you crying about Supper... Make your own next time.

It's not crying or blaming... It's answering a question... There was no press release... No refusal to take the field and play ball in Target Field... They didn't call a press conference and go ape over the dimensions. They get asked questions and they answer them and then they get attacked for the answers. They still go to the plate and try to hit the ball hard.

How sterile do you want their answers to be.

We take it one game at a time.
I'm just glad to be here... Trying to help the team win games.
It takes 25 guys to get the job done
Baseball is a funny game.

Husband is actually happy and trying to watch a ballgame on TV.

Wife: What did you think of Supper?
Husband: It was OK... Wasn't one of my favorites... It helped when I put some Ketchup on it.
Wife: I'm so sick of you crying about Supper... Make your own next time.

It's not crying or blaming... It's answering a question... There was no press release... No refusal to take the field and play ball in Target Field... They didn't call a press conference and go ape over the dimensions. They get asked questions and they answer them and then they get attacked for the answers. They still go to the plate and try to hit the ball hard.

How sterile do you want their answers to be.

We take it one game at a time.
I'm just glad to be here... Trying to help the team win games.
It takes 25 guys to get the job done
Baseball is a funny game.

I really liked Thome's answer, manning up to the job at hand is never sterile.

Reporter: Joe, the home run totals at Target field are down considerably from the Metrodome. Especially for left handers. Do you find this frustrating?



FOLLOWED by the reaction of some not so nice fans who refer to this as crying.

At what point... do you realize that you are either borderline insane or losing human qualities or at least really bad with your use of adjectives.

Seriously... Why Do they speak at all? With people like Badsmerf and you around?

Wow, seriously?

You are somehow qualified to call people "borderline insane" or less than human, for quoting them accurately? I also didn't use a single adjective. I made no reference to the tone of the comments, I guess I prefer a stiff-upper-lip approach to sports as opposed to the metro-sexual get-all-my-feelings on the table approach to high-level sports.

I noticed you had no comment on the trees and their need of their presence in CF as an excuse- and then the hitting results after their removal. Aren't the players coddled and rewarded richly enough? The fans built the stadium and pay the salaries, the aesthetic integrity of the park and intent of the designers of the park were whimsically cast aside for a mere trifle.

When players are complaining and blaming outside things effecting their performance they are crying. Thome is a perfect example of a pro because his explanation of TF is that its a baseball field and you go out and play. I don't mind Mauer saying its and adjustment, but give me a break. Do you really feel bad because TF doesn't play as well for lefties as the dome did? I don't. Hit the ball hard and hit line drives and you'll hit HR's.

Careful, certain posters think your comments, which are the essence of common sense........ qualify you as "borderline insane" or going out of your way to whine and complain.

Husband is actually happy and trying to watch a ballgame on TV.

Wife: What did you think of Supper?
Husband: It was OK... Wasn't one of my favorites... It helped when I put some Ketchup on it.
Wife: I'm so sick of you crying about Supper... Make your own next time.



If that's typical of your own interactions with your wife, I wouldn't go as far to say those interactions are borderline insane, but I can make a fair guess that you were no longer "actually happy" after your emotionally distant and socially inattentive faux pas.

The ESPN numbers do compare home v. road numbers; to that end they are an attempt to measure park influence. BBall-ref goes a step further by including opponents performance at the park compared to other parks. But you can consider these a park factor measure. They're not simple runs-per-game type stuff.

The homeruns are still down (these past two homestands notwithstanding, in particular the interleague homestand where there were nearly 3 hrs per game), but the doubles, triples, and walks are all way up, contributing to the runs.

I suspect the park will eventually settle into neutral-to-slight-pitcher park. That's how it's played last yaer and this year. I think that's what they wanted. But who knows?I hope that's the case as I'm not a fan of extreme parks.

It's also interesting to go to hittracker and check out the park overlays, where you can put an outline of parks on top of each other to compare. Dimensions of fields are probably much more similar than many realize. Target Field is about the ezxact same shape as Safeco, but it's also not too different than US Cellular.

You are somehow qualified to call people "borderline insane" or less than human, for quoting them accurately?.

I've been here a week and it's clear this guy doesn't understand the concept of a quote. I'm sure a butter-knife steak was the real culprit here or something equally as absurd.

Wow, seriously?

You are somehow qualified to call people "borderline insane" or less than human, for quoting them accurately? I also didn't use a single adjective. I made no reference to the tone of the comments, I guess I prefer a stiff-upper-lip approach to sports as opposed to the metro-sexual get-all-my-feelings on the table approach to high-level sports.

I noticed you had no comment on the trees and their need of their presence in CF as an excuse- and then the hitting results after their removal. Aren't the players coddled and rewarded richly enough? The fans built the stadium and pay the salaries, the aesthetic integrity of the park and intent of the designers of the park were whimsically cast aside for a mere trifle.

Yes seriously... The essence of common sense? Common perhaps... Sense... Not even close...

The players are criticized for play on the field and now you can add mundane differences in lifted quotes about how they feel about the hitting experience to what you will criticize. It's ok to like Thome's answer better but to define a lesser quote as crying or whining for answering a question with what is assumed to be an honest answer is pretty unfair. Especially when you consider that they were asked a question and answered it and did not seek an interview to express their opinions.

How do you know that there wasn't more to the quote? How do you know that Mauer or Kubel or Morneau or Cuddyer didn't continue on with and finish with "whatever the dimensions... the ball game is still played the same way. Do you actually think that Mauer said what he said and then walked away ending the interview and those were the only words spoken. Do you think that the players are possibly deeper than what they express in a simple sound bite. I do but your posts suggests that the judge and jury have all the evidence needed and we have crying. I want to know what players actually think... I just don't think it's possible with The editing that takes place and the over reaction to their edited thoughts. Eventually... They will just shut up and then people will be pissed cuz they are cold hearted jerks.

Im noticing your indignance over my use of Borderline insane and losing human qualities... Yet you failed to include my third option of really bad at adjectives. I personally think it's the third option but I can't discount the other two at this point.

As for the Trees... I don't know... I wasn't in the room when they made the decision. If the trees make it hard to spot the ball coming out of the pitchers hand... It will bug the hitters and the pitchers will love it. Both teams will have to contend with the issue and I would Imagine it being a home park advantage because of more exposure to the hinderence.

I imagine without knowledge that players were asked about the park by the Front office and It's not out of the realm of possibility that questionnaires were distributed by someone who has time on their hands. It is also quite possible that Jim Thome himself with his ability to put together solid quotes that pass your smell test may have filled out "the ball is hard to spot coming out of the pitchers hand with the trees behind. You don't know... I don't know but I assume they didn't take the trees out because Drew Butera and Drew Butera only said the trees were a challenge. I assume that the Trees were taken out because enough players were not seeing the ball to take action. After all... Not seeing the ball at 95 MPH is a health issue.

Im sure none of my post did any good. So you can reply now with some more of the essence of common sense (which kinda rhymes by the way). It would be much easier to just admit that it's not crying. It was an answer.

I've been here a week and it's clear this guy doesn't understand the concept of a quote. I'm sure a butter-knife steak was the real culprit here or something equally as absurd.

Do you work in the media? I do... I've taken quotes and chopped them up because of space issues. I've also been interviewed by newspapers and trade magazines only to find that nearly every time they take the parts of your interview that fits their slant and I get to see it presented in ways I didn't intend in the finished product.

The question is... Do you understand the concept of a quote? I'll admit I don't know the context of any of the quotes listed but I can say that I do understand the concept of quotes. At least I better or I need to find a different line of work.

The question is... Do you understand the concept of a quote? I'll admit I don't know the context of any of the quotes listed but I can say that I do understand the concept of quotes. At least I better or I need to find a different line of work.

Everything always has context. It's ok to say "Yeah, they said that. I wonder if there is more context?" If you were honest about your speculation that would be fine. But as you continue to demonstrate - you prefer to dismiss a direct quote in favor on context you are speculating/assuming that you have no evidence for to refute the quote.

That's the silly stuff. Speculate away, it's a message board. But if people back up their speculation with direct quotes, you aren't on equal ground with the nonsense of "well there may be more context....". Either provide the context or another quote or acknowledge the quote for what it is. It's basic discourse/logic/argument 101 - you can't dismiss a strong argument (bolstered by a quote) with speculation.

It's like refuting fossil records with the Bible. You do a nice job dressing it up like your points are valid - but they're not. They're pigs in prom dresses and that's what you're being called out for.

Im noticing your indignance over my use of Borderline insane and losing human qualities... Yet you failed to include my third option of really bad at adjectives. I personally think it's the third option but I can't discount the other two at this point.

.

I can only speak for myself, as you directed this to the whole forum. Hard to be indignant over something that ridiculously bombastic. And, I did include your third option concerning adjectival choices- as I stated- I didn't use any. I gave the quote as printed in the Pioneer Press, verbatim. I didn't say it was "crying", or "whining". I let it stand to compare and contrast with Thome's. And then you continued in your passive-agressive assault on "certain someones'" opinions wuth whom you disagree. Nice attempt at marginalization. This behavior I wouldn't discount as "borderline".

Everything always has context. It's ok to say "Yeah, they said that. I wonder if there is more context?" If you were honest about your speculation that would be fine. But as you continue to demonstrate - you prefer to dismiss a direct quote in favor on context you are speculating/assuming that you have no evidence for to refute the quote.

That's the silly stuff. Speculate away, it's a message board. But if people back up their speculation with direct quotes, you aren't on equal ground with the nonsense of "well there may be more context....". Either provide the context or another quote or acknowledge the quote for what it is. It's basic discourse/logic/argument 101 - you can't dismiss a strong argument (bolstered by a quote) with speculation.

It's like refuting fossil records with the Bible. You do a nice job dressing it up like your points are valid - but they're not. They're pigs in prom dresses and that's what you're being called out for.

I'm not dismissing the direct quote. I'm sure Ben Revere said nice things about Brunansky. I'm sure they worked on hitting. My issue was your claim that a month of AAA produced the Ben Revere of today. You used his quotes in a slanted Hartman article to make your point. That's when it fell off the tracks. I contend that Ben didn't need to be sent down and I base that on his consistent stats and what I see watching him play. You thought I was making stuff up. You can say Something was fixed in Rochester yet he had 1 extra base hit during his time. Same Ben to me. High Average... Little extra base power... Little walks and boatload of speed and highlight reel catches.

On this issue. Do you really believe that Mauer and the ball players are crying? They are not... They have an opinion and expressed it cuz they were asked. That's my opinion. How do you feel? Do you think they are outwardly upset over the ballpark. On this issue... It was the quote that is used against them.

Now hopefully you can understand my diatribe!

My issue was your claim that a month of AAA produced the Ben Revere of today. You used his quotes in a slanted Hartman article to make your point.

That wasn't my point. You made that my point and then argued it. Classic strawman. (go ahead, go back and read it. I never made any such claim - I said he worked on some things and came back better. That strawman was all you.) Which is exactly what you're doing here as well. Someone posted quotes. You can call them slanted or put your own spin on it - but they're quotes. You don't refute them just because you wave a magic wand and say "I don't believe it!" Which is exactly what you've done. At best it's bad form in a discussion. If I thought you were doing it intentionally I'd call it trolling. Essentially that's what it amounts to though.

If you'd like to provide more context to those quotes to prove your claim - I'd be interested to hear it. If you don't have that, then put the magic wand away and stop dismissing them.


On this issue. Do you really believe that Mauer and the ball players are crying? They are not... They have an opinion and expressed it cuz they were asked. That's my opinion. How do you feel? Do you think they are outwardly upset over the ballpark. On this issue... It was the quote that is used against them. !

I think several players on the team have gotten too comfortable with the idea that they can't hit homeruns here. They've let their perception of the difficulty cloud them to the point that it is effecting their play. That bothers me and to that degree I'd say they are far too negatively focused on that aspect of the field.

Don't forget to add Joe Mauer for nothing more than analyzing what he does for a living:

"It's definitely frustrating as a left-handed hitter," Mauer said. "I'd be lying if I told you there aren't times at the plate where you're like, 'Oh, I've got to maybe pull a ball,' or things like that. It messes with your approach a little bit."


Don't forget that they apparently complained as a group (oh, I meant to say analyzing what they do for a living) to remove the center field trees after 2010- only to see averages and production plummet further.

I'd love to hear Plouffe, Willingham, Parmelee and Thome,....and Soriano,......and Bautista.... Oh wait, Thome has gone public with his analyzing what he does (did/er, will do again, now that he's back in the AL as an Oriole) for a living. Here's Thome griping away:


"There were some balls that you hit that could get knocked down, sure, I think maybe (it's) the weather or something," Thome said. "Whatever. You just go hit. You don't really worry about all that."


CDog doesn't need my support. He can be biting and direct but he's fairly smart. He's called me out on occasion and I answer back with I don't know or finish my thinking and we move on. LOL... actually, he probably prefers that I don't support him. However, he is absolutely correct in my opinion.

Jokin, I apologize if I misunderstood the context of your post above but to me it looked like you aligned yourself with Badsmerf. You did not mention crying in this post. But it does seem to be support of Badsmerf who did.

I've read your posts... I enjoy your posts... you are also a smart guy... Sometime we disagree but that's only natural.

I was shocked to see you jump into this camp. Clearly you are smart enough to realize that Joe answered a question and for this to be perceived as crying or whining is my issue.

This isn't anything new... Over the decades players are often quoted and taken out of context and it leads to the Sports Cliche. Once you starting getting cliche's... You just get removed furthur from what is really happening.

For the record, I haven't dismissed anything on basis of context in any of those quotes. I have said, and still do, that considering the exact quotes listed to be whining or crying or anything in that vein is simply looking fairly hard for something to complain about. And I've even mentioned some reasons that I think that happens somewhere in the not-too-distant past.

And while I'm here, "affect" and "effect" are not the same word.

Its possible that the Plaza could be a factor. I'm not saying it while banging down a gavel. Its possible... The plaza is an open spot and the wind will funnel through it and could knock down balls. I admit I don't know what direction it faces cuz I'm bad with directions but if it faces a typical wind direction it could cause problems for lefties. Mauer... Morneau and Kubel haven't hit a ton of Target field homers. Thome... well he's a power freak... It would take an F3 tornado to knock his ball down.

Righties do seem to hit more. I said seem... I didn't research anything.

I've been thinking about this a decent amount recently (specifically after the series in Cincy). Why are some parks such hitters parks compared to other parks.

I've been to a decent amount of games at Target Field (probably 30 or so) and I remember days where the wind was blowing out of the South, thinking "man, the balls are going to fly out today," but that just hasn't ever been the case.

I feel like there are never days where the wind makes the ball carry, but there are certainly days when the wind stifles hard hit balls.

There are probably several features of the Target field construction that effect this.
(Just FYI, before I start talking about directions, the pitcher pitches due west at Target Field)

The plaza could certainly be one. That "tunnel" could easily gather wind from a pretty wide swath of directions and direct it into Right field. So, if the wind is from straight south to straight east, there could be a pretty significant disadvantage for lefties.

You'd think a wind from the south would help righties and a wind from the west would help both batters. But it doesn't seem to. It has to have something to do with the air dynamics of the building. Think of that roof element as a airplane wing. Just looking at an airplane, you would think it could fly. But the airplane wing creates lift; enough lift to lift a very heavy object into the air.
Perhaps the roof at TF is making the air sink, which knocks balls down. That would explain, why even on days where the wind is howling out of the West, balls still don't seem to carry. The advantage gained from the wind blowing from the west is counteracted by the extra sink the air is feeling (when a plane goes faster it has more lift).
If this effect is real, then that takes care of over 180° of wind direction. SE to probably due north.

The final 90 degrees (north to east) are easy to explain because that's right in the batters face.

So, on days when the wind is from South to East to North (12:01 to 5:59) it's hurting batters, and on days when it's South to West to North (6:01 to 11:59) it's about neutral.

For the record, I haven't dismissed anything on basis of context in any of those quotes. I have said, and still do, that considering the exact quotes listed to be whining or crying or anything in that vein is simply looking fairly hard for something to complain about. And I've even mentioned some reasons that I think that happens somewhere in the not-too-distant past.

That's fine. Remarks like that are open to be interpreted to a degree. I can see how someone would label it crying - some of the language by the Twins players is a bit "ridiculous" to use one of their own terms. Removing the trees seemed a bit petty considering lots of parks have CF attractions. And there is something to the way the organizational mouth-pieces keep repeating the same complaints.

At the same time, this park is not good for left-handed pull hitters or a guy like Mauer. So I understand their frustration. I'm not sure I'd label it crying, but I am bothered by how much it is being used as a crutch.

I've been thinking about this a decent amount recently (specifically after the series in Cincy). Why are some parks such hitters parks compared to other parks.

I've been to a decent amount of games at Target Field (probably 30 or so) and I remember days where the wind was blowing out of the South, thinking "man, the balls are going to fly out today," but that just hasn't ever been the case.

Isn't this pondering essentially what one of the papers (I forget which, but I think it was the Minneapolis side) did some limited research on before this season started (and naturally, people got all up in arms about the players whining because the newspaper did such a project...which makes perfect sense...or something...but I digress)? I don't rememember their exact conclusions, but it might be worth a peek back if you're interested.

I'm not sure I'd label it crying, but I am bothered by how much it is being used as a crutch.

I guess I don't see or understand how it is used as a crutch. I'm not trying to be difficult; I really don't see what you mean by that.

That wasn't my point. You made that my point and then argued it. Classic strawman. (go ahead, go back and read it. I never made any such claim - I said he worked on some things and came back better. That strawman was all you.) Which is exactly what you're doing here as well. Someone posted quotes. You can call them slanted or put your own spin on it - but they're quotes. You don't refute them just because you wave a magic wand and say "I don't believe it!" Which is exactly what you've done. At best it's bad form in a discussion. If I thought you were doing it intentionally I'd call it trolling. Essentially that's what it amounts to though.

If you'd like to provide more context to those quotes to prove your claim - I'd be interested to hear it. If you don't have that, then put the magic wand away and stop dismissing them.



I think several players on the team have gotten too comfortable with the idea that they can't hit homeruns here. They've let their perception of the difficulty cloud them to the point that it is effecting their play. That bothers me and to that degree I'd say they are far too negatively focused on that aspect of the field.

At some point... They are going to lock this thread down... There isn't much point in bringing it back up... I remember the discussion... I've re-read the discussion.

You said We should send Dozier down because (paraphrasing) look what it did for Ben Revere.
I said (paraphrasing) that sending Revere down to AAA did nothing for him he was the same guy before.
You said (Paraphrasing) that Ben Credits his time in AAA and eventually you provided a Sid Hartman article with his quotes.
I Said (Paraphrasing) It's a Sid Hartman article and he's about as slanted as it gets.

And at some point in time... We both probably stopped reading each other and nothing got solved.

Whatever... Welcome aboard... Like I said... The Board has had more energy to it lately and I mean that. It just seems that lately we've had a rash of quote induced crap from Terry Ryan to Ron Gardenhire to Ben Revere to Mauer, Morneau, Kubel and Cuddyer.

Quotes will never be what they seem and everyone draws their own conclusions from them. Hell we can't even quote each other properly... I really wasn't angry at you at any point... you never said that Ben Revere was a little weasel or baby or anything.

Okay, then I'll say it.

Ben Revere is a weasel baby.

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For the record, I haven't dismissed anything on basis of context in any of those quotes. I have said, and still do, that considering the exact quotes listed to be whining or crying or anything in that vein is simply looking fairly hard for something to complain about. And I've even mentioned some reasons that I think that happens somewhere in the not-too-distant past.

And while I'm here, "affect" and "effect" are not the same word.

You are correct, and I cringe and bite my tongue every time I read misuses of affect/effect and loose/lose, won/one, etc, because of the appearances that you are trying to win an argument grammarily.

Regarding the substance, I just prefer "a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do" approach to playing a kids game for millions of dollars. As on the other issue concerning his injury, Joe is a man, he's tough, an incredible talent...... who needs to hire a better media advisor. I thought plain-spoken, far-less-sophisticated, Jim Thome, hit all the same notes and left no room for misinterpretation of where he stood regarding the situation with Target Field.

Isn't this pondering essentially what one of the papers (I forget which, but I think it was the Minneapolis side) did some limited research on before this season started (and naturally, people got all up in arms about the players whining because the newspaper did such a project...which makes perfect sense...or something...but I digress)? I don't rememember their exact conclusions, but it might be worth a peek back if you're interested.

The Pio-Press did such an article and was from where I obtained my two quotes. Sorry, I don't have the link, but it was easy to find.

You are correct, and I cringe and bite my tongue every time I read misuses of affect/effect and loose/lose, won/one, etc, because of the appearances that you are trying to win an argument grammarily.

How about the most popular misuse...They're there for their game?

Isn't this pondering essentially what one of the papers (I forget which, but I think it was the Minneapolis side) did some limited research on before this season started (and naturally, people got all up in arms about the players whining because the newspaper did such a project...which makes perfect sense...or something...but I digress)? I don't rememember their exact conclusions, but it might be worth a peek back if you're interested.

Found the article (St Paul side): http://www.twincities.com/1000/ci_20398152/target-field-factor-minnesota-twins-sluggers-constantly-battle?IADID=Search-www.twincities.com-www.twincities.com

Hadn't read the article before, but it does say a lot of the same things I did.

I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

That's fine. Remarks like that are open to be interpreted to a degree. I can see how someone would label it crying - some of the language by the Twins players is a bit "ridiculous" to use one of their own terms. Removing the trees seemed a bit petty considering lots of parks have CF attractions. And there is something to the way the organizational mouth-pieces keep repeating the same complaints.

At the same time, this park is not good for left-handed pull hitters or a guy like Mauer. So I understand their frustration. I'm not sure I'd label it crying, but I am bothered by how much it is being used as a crutch.


It does go back to the organization. When you have two premier, recent MVP-level players who happen to be lefties and don't make every effort to tailor the park to their strengths seems the height of stupidity. The tree excuse was petty and silly and production went down after they were removed. The trees were a natural home-field advantage, there is precedence for them being there, so the safety issue is moot. It came down to more coddling and enabling, instead of re-tooling the ballpark. I proposed from season one to extend the porch overhang from foul pole to right center, restore the trees, while retaining the integrity of the park, problem solved.

How about the most popular misuse...They're there for their game?

Numero Uno, for sure. Major cringeworthiness.

You are correct, and I cringe and bite my tongue every time I read misuses of affect/effect and loose/lose, won/one, etc, because of the appearances that you are trying to win an argument grammarily.

Regarding the substance, I just prefer "a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do" approach to playing a kids game for millions of dollars. As on the other issue concerning his injury, Joe is a man, he's tough, an incredible talent...... who needs to hire a better media advisor. I thought plain-spoken, far-less-sophisticated, Jim Thome, hit all the same notes and left no room for misinterpretation of where he stood regarding the situation with Target Field.

I try...I really do. Was the third time in one day seeing the a/effect one come up, so I pointed it out without quote and not as part of any argument for that very reason.

I know we're going round and round...but I just don't see why there's a difference. Two quotes say, "it took me a while, but I adjusted" (paraphrasing). Way to man up, right? I did one thing, it didn't work, I tried something else. Tough. Manly. Or should they not have adjusted or admitted to the frailty of not being perfect right away? Another acknowledged not being a pull-hitter and maybe trying to be to a fault. Admit some mistakes, working on trying to be better, trying to be the best player he can be. Good on him. Some balls get knocked down by wind or whatever, but I just do my best. Rugged. I just can't see getting upset or annoyed or even slightly miffed at different wording for the same thing.

It does go back to the organization. When you have two premier, recent MVP-level players who happen to be lefties and don't make every effort to tailor the park to their strengths seems the height of stupidity.

As long as I'm on a roll...1) I'd say that when you build a park to be used for 20 years minimum, and hopefully more than 50 (and hopefully way more than 50), building it for current team could be viewed as short-sighted instead. I hope we have MVP hitters from the both sides and Cy Young pitchers not even born yet that come through the same park that can benefit from things that current players don't. 2) As has been pointed out early and late in this thread, the dimensions aren't all that ridiculous for the lefties (although the extended high wall could be considered extreme) or righties. I think the home-run scarcity is more of a, "We find out how it plays after it's built and it gets used" in most cases. And also no reason it can't or hasn't been a doubles/triples/singles park while playing big for homers.

I try...I really do. Was the third time in one day seeing the a/effect one come up, so I pointed it out without quote and not as part of any argument for that very reason.

I know we're going round and round...but I just don't see why there's a difference. Two quotes say, "it took me a while, but I adjusted" (paraphrasing). Way to man up, right? I did one thing, it didn't work, I tried something else. Tough. Manly. Or should they not have adjusted or admitted to the frailty of not being perfect right away? Another acknowledged not being a pull-hitter and maybe trying to be to a fault. Admit some mistakes, working on trying to be better, trying to be the best player he can be. Good on him. Some balls get knocked down by wind or whatever, but I just do my best. Rugged. I just can't see getting upset or annoyed or even slightly miffed at different wording for the same thing.

I saw those three examples, too. How I so productively get annoyed on my afternoon off.

Speaking of annoyed, I wasn't annoyed by the quotes, I was amused. The metero-sexual, in-touch-with-your-feelings approach for public figures to assume as a persona is everywhere else in our culture, so of course, it's drifted into baseball. At least we haven't descended to Euro-style athletics, where everyone but the rugby and irish hurling players writhe in agony when they trip or break a fingernail. I'm not asking Mauer to behave like Brett Favre, although they both were quarterbacks, Joe appears to be a far more decent guy, I just would hope that he cut back on the introspection and "masculinize" his quotes concerning his onfield endeavours to just a shade more toward Brett. I know as a teammate, it would definitely instill more confidence in him as someone to count on for leadership.

"Ah, the days of yore, when men were men and their women were glad of it.'

As long as I'm on a roll...1) I'd say that when you build a park to be used for 20 years minimum, and hopefully more than 50 (and hopefully way more than 50), building it for current team could be viewed as short-sighted instead. I hope we have MVP hitters from the both sides and Cy Young pitchers not even born yet that come through the same park that can benefit from things that current players don't. 2) As has been pointed out early and late in this thread, the dimensions aren't all that ridiculous for the lefties (although the extended high wall could be considered extreme) or righties. I think the home-run scarcity is more of a, "We find out how it plays after it's built and it gets used" in most cases. And also no reason it can't or hasn't been a doubles/triples/singles park while playing big for homers.


That trend is definitely not your friend in terms of 50 years for TF. Refurbished Met Stadium didn't get much past 20. Most 60s, 70s and now, 80s parks have been or will be soon be replaced/significantly upgraded. Standard operating procedure for clubs that get new ballparks is to maximize the media and cultural attention by gearing the park towards the clubs' marketing strengths, not its weaknesses. For good reason, they want front end-payoff and let the out-years of the park's life take care of itself.

For all intents and purposes, the public statements of Kubel, Morneau, Mauer, et al, and the public's percepton, is that the park is unfair to lefties and the latter two guys led off every single commercial to the run-up n the marketing of the Target Field Experience- and it continues to this day. And the appearances are that the players aren't enjoying their "TF Experience".

I guess I don't see or understand how it is used as a crutch. I'm not trying to be difficult; I really don't see what you mean by that.

Nope it's cool. Jokin hit on it later in the thread - it's the organization pulling the trees, it's TR saying they are changing their draft style for the field, it's Dick, Bert, Coomer, Gladden, etc. all mentioning what a bad hitter's park it is every time they are broadcasting, and I could go on.

It sounds like validating an excuse. And it sounds like some Twins are buying into that excuse. As you rightly said - it seems like a lot of short-sighted complaints and unusually loud squawking to the press for it to sit right with me.

Quotes will never be what they seem and everyone draws their own conclusions from them. Hell we can't even quote each other properly... I really wasn't angry at you at any point... you never said that Ben Revere was a little weasel or baby or anything.

Quotes cannot be slant. A direct quote is not slant. Taking a quote, verbatim, and presenting it is not slant. You can't dismiss it. You can present counter-evidence. You can present further context. You can even present blood-intoxication results. But you can't dismiss the quote itself, only argue about interpretation. Hence why you were wrong to say:

Please go on and explain how his 101 PA in AAA and one extra base hit transformed him into the beautiful MLB swan today.

What I said numerous times was "he attributes" "he said" etc. You seem to believe that "quotes = interpretations" with no ability to discern one from the other. I'd just advise that you try, because you're being unnecessarily confrontational based on that fundamental misunderstanding.

Oh and when can we "Weasel Baby" us some Ben Revere word filter style?

Okay, then I'll say it.

Ben Revere is a weasel baby.

1453

I laughed. I did. Out loud.

With the way Plouffe and Willingham have been jerking home runs to left field, it certainly isn't looking like a pitchers park. Players are starting to figure out how to hit at Target Field and that is making the offensive numbers show up.

I wonder if it's the players figuring it out or the organization. Adding two dead pull hitters (one via free agency) is looking brilliant this year. The "use the whole park" philosophy might be emphasized a little less throughout the organization given their home field.

I wonder if it's the players figuring it out or the organization. Adding two dead pull hitters (one via free agency) is looking brilliant this year. The "use the whole park" philosophy might be emphasized a little less throughout the organization given their home field.


Agreed. Lefties for the most part on this team occasionally yank one out, but RH power is the key.

Buxton, if he can survive his .043 start, could provide pop. Hopefully someone can move up that has RH power.

Sano does,Hicks does, Arcia's is primarily LH. Joe Benson has to stop psyching himself out and get moving. Golden opportunity for some OF types.

That trend is definitely not your friend in terms of 50 years for TF. Refurbished Met Stadium didn't get much past 20. Most 60s, 70s and now, 80s parks have been or will be soon be replaced/significantly upgraded. Standard operating procedure for clubs that get new ballparks is to maximize the media and cultural attention by gearing the park towards the clubs' marketing strengths, not its weaknesses. For good reason, they want front end-payoff and let the out-years of the park's life take care of itself.

For all intents and purposes, the public statements of Kubel, Morneau, Mauer, et al, and the public's percepton, is that the park is unfair to lefties and the latter two guys led off every single commercial to the run-up n the marketing of the Target Field Experience- and it continues to this day. And the appearances are that the players aren't enjoying their "TF Experience".

My hope is that the new wave of ballparks will stand the test of time much better than the cookie-cutters and shared-use arenas of the previous wave. Camden is close to 25 years old, and I don't think anyone's even dreaming of replacing it. The Jake is approaching 20. I hope to goodness PNC isn't replaced in my lifetime, and certainly not in the next ten or fifteen years. I may not get my wish, but that's my hope.

I wouldn't bet a paycheck or anything, but I would bet something that if you asked Mauer, Kubel, Morneau, Cuddyer, and really anyone else that's called it their home park in the last three years, they'd almost all say that they love Target Field overall, despite anything in this thread (fact or not).

As you rightly said - it seems like a lot of short-sighted complaints and unusually loud squawking to the press for it to sit right with me.

I said that?

I said that?

You mentioned how it is short-sighted to build a stadium for your current team. I'd argue it was equally short-sighted to acquiesce to your current roster and start mixing up the park to appease them when they start complaining to the public after one year.

has the batter's eye ever been hit? Thome's two OVER it are all the more amazing when considering that maybe nobody else has even pelted it.

Didn't Cabrera plink one off the eyedrop when he hit that 0-2 pitch off of Capps that cost the Twins the game a few weeks back? My memory has that one as off the eyedrop, but I don't remember perfectly.

Quotes cannot be slant. A direct quote is not slant. Taking a quote, verbatim, and presenting it is not slant. You can't dismiss it. You can present counter-evidence. You can present further context. You can even present blood-intoxication results. But you can't dismiss the quote itself, only argue about interpretation. Hence why you were wrong to say:

Please go on and explain how his 101 PA in AAA and one extra base hit transformed him into the beautiful MLB swan today.

What I said numerous times was "he attributes" "he said" etc. You seem to believe that "quotes = interpretations" with no ability to discern one from the other. I'd just advise that you try, because you're being unnecessarily confrontational based on that fundamental misunderstanding.

Oh and when can we "Weasel Baby" us some Ben Revere word filter style?

Ok... I do not dismiss the quotes...I am arguing interpretation... lol...

On the subject of the trees... Does anyone else see the irony... on this thread we have posters Complaining about... The players Complaining!

You mentioned how it is short-sighted to build a stadium for your current team. I'd argue it was equally short-sighted to acquiesce to your current roster and start mixing up the park to appease them when they start complaining to the public after one year.

Oh. I don't think they really did, did they? Other than making the batter's eye a batter's eye, which I don't feel like was trying to tailor the park to anyone other than to make a true batter's eye for everyone. They didn't move or alter any fences. And from what I remember, as stated in a previous thread, that movement picked up momentum from comments and reactions from home and opposing players alike.

Didn't Cabrera plink one off the eyedrop when he hit that 0-2 pitch off of Capps that cost the Twins the game a few weeks back? My memory has that one as off the eyedrop, but I don't remember perfectly.

Could be, I didn't actually see that one. I watch most games and even if I miss them I'll often record and go back to see "special" plays, but that one I didn't (not sure I wanted to, either...ugh). I'm sure it's been done, but I'm also fairly sure it's pretty rare.

For the people who ignored the mentality of whining from the Twins, Terry Ryan said on his radio show that:

"We have to get it out of our mindset" that Target Field is hard to hit home-runs out of. The Oakland A's were hammering the ball all over the park this weekend to seal that.

^ Yeah, somebody plunked one off the batter's eye this afternoon.

The fact is opposing teams didn't have any trouble hitting home runs at Target Field in 2010 and 2011. Other than Thome the Twins just didn't have any "real" power hitters.

This year is pretty fun because Willinghammer and Plouffe there it is are neck and neck and sometimes our other guys can doink one out of there so it seems a bit more alive.

While I don't have a strong opinion on if Target Field is a definite pitchers or hitters park, I think it is safe to say it's not quite as forgiving as the Dome, which has turned out to be a problem for our two highest paid players.

Nobody cried. People were able to discuss things at an adult level with some thought. Well...some people.

Well to be fair there is a winner of the 2008 Home Run Derby saying the ballpark's dimensions are ridiculous:
http://www.startribune.com/sports/twins/targetfield/107374393.html

What I think fans find frustrating, at least I know its true with me, is when the media slants things or emphasizes only certain aspects of things. Just tonight 7/15/2012 Tom Kelly and Dick Bremer were having a discussion about the concrete settling. In 2012, year 3 of the ballpark. And that is if you think that argument has any weight on day 3 of the ballpark.

Silly denial from official sources leads to fan frustration.