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Thread: Article: A Hall Without Jack Morris Is No Hall at All

  1. #21
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    Morris' "era" isn't 1979-1992. That's the exact prime of his career, and a textbook example of selective endpoints.

    Then you compare him to pitchers who debuted between 1970 and 1984 -- how did you come up with that? (Also, it appears to mean AFTER 1970 and BEFORE 1984, as Blyleven debuted in 1970 and Clemens debuted in 1984 and both of those guys beat Morris by a mile.)

    Look, I love me some Morris, I think Game 7 was great, and I wouldn't be upset to see him get in, but I don't think it's any kind of injustice. I mean, outside of his iconic moment, the best justification seems to be the HOF should have a starting pitcher debut in every X year period. (Anybody find a nice HOF list sorted by birth year?) There were a lot of great SP debuting in the 1960s and 1980s, they just seemed to skip debuts in the 1970s for the most part. Heck, even Morris didn't debut until 1977 or establish himself until 1979. The great lasting pitchers of the 1970s debuted in the 1960s, and the great lasting pitchers of the 1980s debuted in 1984 or later (or were holdovers from 1960s debuts).

    I don't know why that is, but if you look at yearly top 10 leaderboards at Baseball Reference, the late 70s / early 80s look a little thin. Heck, Morris doesn't even appear on many of those.

  2. #22
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldManWinter View Post
    Koufax is a really high standard to surpass.

    Would Don Drysdale or Robin Roberts and many others be in the HOF if they needed to meet that standard?
    I didn't say they had to pass the Koufax standard. I listed four great players with incredibly diverse skill sets to counter your argument that different players deserve to be in the hall. The common trait between those four is greatness... A trait that Jack Morris did not consistently show during his career.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    There are many reasons to be upset with the BBWAA and their voting process.

    Jack Morris isn't one of them. Bartolo-freakin-Colon has a higher career WAR than ol' Grumpystache.

    Morris has no business being in a Hall that refuses to elect Alan Trammell, Mike Piazza, Craig Biggio, Jeff Bagwell, and Tim Raines, among others (all are 69+ career WAR players, compared to Morris' 43 WAR... which is lower than Joe Mauer, BTW).

    And that's not even getting into the PED guys who deserve to be there: Clemens and Bonds, for starters.

    The problem with the HoF voting is that there are a slew of writers who just aren't very bright. They take moralistic stands on the most bizarre of topics but they can't even stay consistent within their own "rules".

    How on earth can you vote for Larkin but not Trammell? How can you vote for Jim Rice but not Raines? How can you completely ignore the contributions of the Killer Bs? Hell, Trammell and Raines didn't even play during the PED era. That's no excuse (it shouldn't be an excuse either way but whatever) to leave them off the ballot.

    And then there's Mike Piazza. The best offensive catcher in history and it's not even really close. Never linked to PED use, played in monster stadiums his entire career, and a hell of a guy to boot. But nah, don't vote for him. This is the Hall of Fame. Not the Hall of... uh... Great?
    Thats your opinion and I respect it, but there is so much more than numbers involved here. Anyone from his era who watched him pitch knows he's a hall of famer. So many people today whose only connection to Morris is video of him striking out Ron Gant and crunching numbers on their laptop. Numbers dont do him justice, and when you add in his postseason resume, it just floors me he cant get in.

  4. #24
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thor View Post
    Morris made 14 opening day starts. 3 of those teams won the World Series. It isn't rocket science, it's baseball where you send your best pitcher out on opening day. The best pitcher 14 years for good teams was Jack.
    "Opening Day starter" and "best pitcher" are not synonymous. There are a host of reasons not to start your "best pitcher" on Opening Day:

    1. He might be injured.

    2. He might be in the minors.

    3. He might be young and you want to defer the pressure of Opening Day to a veteran.

    4. You might trust a particular veteran more than another.

    Continue ad nauseum.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marta Shearing View Post
    Thats your opinion and I respect it, but there is so much more than numbers involved here. Anyone from his era who watched him pitch knows he's a hall of famer. So many people today whose only connection to Morris is video of him striking out Ron Gant and crunching numbers on their laptop. Numbers dont do him justice, and when you add in his postseason resume, it just floors me he cant get in.
    If he's so great, why don't the numbers do him justice? I'm sorry, but that makes no sense to me.
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  6. #26
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marta Shearing View Post
    Thats your opinion and I respect it, but there is so much more than numbers involved here. Anyone from his era who watched him pitch knows he's a hall of famer. So many people today whose only connection to Morris is video of him striking out Ron Gant and crunching numbers on their laptop. Numbers dont do him justice, and when you add in his postseason resume, it just floors me he cant get in.
    The numbers do tell the entire story. Jack Morris was a pitcher whose career is comparable to Charlie Hough, Jamie Moyer, and players of that ilk. Very good pitchers who pitched for a very long time but were not consistently dominant. And that's fine. I'm not taking anything away from Morris, particularly his postseason accomplishments. He was a very good pitcher. Not a great one, unless you want to really weight his postseason accomplishments. During the regular season, he was merely a good pitcher.

    And for the record, I watched many games pitched by Jack Morris. The difference is that I'm not letting a handful of games distort my view of who he was as a pitcher.

  7. #27
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    I also reject the notion that a player is either a Hall of Famer or just a commoner. Can't Jack Morris be a great player, but not worthy of the Hall of Fame? That doesn't mean he's some Joe Mays-level player, but it also doesn't mean he belongs with Bert Blyleven and the other pitchers who were just better than Morris.
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  9. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by markos View Post
    This.

    Jack Morris is already memorialized in the Hall of Fame for having one of the greatest World Series pitching performances in one of the greatest World Series games in one of the greatest World Series in baseball history. He was not one of the greatest pitchers of all time. So he is already in the Hall for exactly the reason that he should be.


    Nice. Thanks for the other comments after my previous post. Heaven forbid I look that stuff up on my own.

  10. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Thrylos View Post
    Kenny Rogers (who was a Minnesota Twin for exactly as long as Morris was) and got a single vote had higher career WAR than Morris. Did not see many cries from the Twin Cities crowd there. Brad Radke had a higher career WAR than Morris. And he was a Twin for life. Did not see many cries there either.

    The two former Twins who should be in this large inclusive hall are Jim Kaat and Tony Oliva, not the Tiger Jack Morris
    I cant believe how often this off season I am agreeing with Thrylos...but he is right. Jack Morris is borderline HOF. Jim Kaat belongs there. Kaat has the most wins of any pitcher not in the HOF. IMHO he was the best fielding pitcher of my lifetime. I am not a big believer in WAR so I cant tell you how he stands there.

    Morris is among a group of pitchers who are borderline including Mussina, Schilling, etc. Now I will be more upset if those two get in than I am now. I would have voted for Morris but his omission is not a big deal.

  11. #30
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldguy10 View Post
    Why are we wasting time on this board discussing Jack Morris? He was the past, let's talk about the future of the Twins, to me that is much more productive and interesting.
    Feel free to not discuss a topic you don't find interesting. There are going to be things some people want to talk about that don't interest you.

  12. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Marta Shearing View Post
    Anyone from his era who watched him pitch knows he's a hall of famer.
    Since he didn't get elected in fifteen tries, that's clearly not the case.

  13. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Brad Swanson View Post
    If he's so great, why don't the numbers do him justice? I'm sorry, but that makes no sense to me.
    There are some numbers that Jack Morris excelled at, but they are stats that are never used in HOF comparisons. (I am citing his by memory, it was stated either on Pos blog or on ESPN on Wed): Morris was the number 1 inning eater of his era, and he was 18% ahead of the #2. Its not a stat that is often appreciated by HOF writers, but GMs writing checks value it highly. If it gets you a higher salary, why isn't it part of the equation?

    Even though I think Morris should be in the HOF, I have to admidt that I am partly pissed it took them soooooo long to let Blyleven in, and some of the arguments are the same arguments (i.e., but look at pitcher xxx). Blyleven is obviously more deserving than Morris, but they are both being disprected in the discussion as a whole.

  14. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Thrylos View Post
    Kenny Rogers (who was a Minnesota Twin for exactly as long as Morris was) and got a single vote had higher career WAR than Morris. Brad Radke had a higher career WAR than Morris.
    If thats not an indictment on WAR, I dont know what is. And I say this respectfully, because I get vibes that saying anything bad about WAR is practically a ban-able offense.

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  16. #34
    Not even particularly close. If you take game 7 away he's remembered somewhere in the Chuck Finley/Mark Langston/Jamie Moyer/Rick Sutcliffe group of pretty good pitchers. No one saved their rookie cards though.

  17. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marta Shearing View Post
    If thats not an indictment on WAR, I dont know what is. And I say this respectfully, because I get vibes that saying anything bad about WAR is practically a ban-able offense.
    If you don't like WAR, then take a gander at Morris' ERA+ of 105.

    Yep, over the course of his career, Jack Morris was barely above league average at preventing runs from scoring.

    Some luminaries that have a higher career ERA+ than Jack Morris:

    (you know what, the list is so comically long that I'm just going to post the link)

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/le...s_career.shtml

  18. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by oldguy10 View Post
    Why are we wasting time on this board discussing Jack Morris? He was the past, let's talk about the future of the Twins, to me that is much more productive and interesting.
    What on earth is wrong with discussing the past?

  19. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Marta Shearing View Post
    Thats your opinion and I respect it, but there is so much more than numbers involved here.
    Wait, what exactly did Jack Morris do that is not reflected in his statistics?

  20. #38
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UCLA_YANKEE_COLA View Post
    Wait, what exactly did Jack Morris do that is not reflected in his statistics?
    Well, he grew a pretty sweet 'stache.

  21. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Brad Swanson View Post
    If he's so great, why don't the numbers do him justice? I'm sorry, but that makes no sense to me.
    There are some numbers that Jack Morris excelled at, but they are stats that are never used in HOF comparisons. (I am citing his by memory, it was stated either on Pos blog or on ESPN on Wed): Morris was the number 1 inning eater of his era, and he was 18% ahead of the #2. Its not a stat that is often appreciated by HOF writers, but GMs writing checks value it highly. If it gets you a higher salary, why isn't it part of the equation?

    Even though I think Morris should be in the HOF, I have to admidt that I am partly pissed it took them soooooo long to let Blyleven in, and some of the arguments are the same arguments (i.e., but look at pitcher xxx). Blyleven is obviously more deserving than Morris, but they are both being disprected in the discussion as a whole.

  22. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by 108 Double Stitches View Post
    There are some numbers that Jack Morris excelled at, but they are stats that are never used in HOF comparisons. (I am citing his by memory, it was stated either on Pos blog or on ESPN on Wed): Morris was the number 1 inning eater of his era, and he was 18% ahead of the #2. Its not a stat that is often appreciated by HOF writers, but GMs writing checks value it highly. If it gets you a higher salary, why isn't it part of the equation?
    I don't think anyone can question his durability. I think that the anti-Morris HOF crowd just thinks he wasn't good enough during those innings to be worth of the Hall of Fame.
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